E-P5 shutter shock ...

NCV wrote:

Anders W wrote:

NCV wrote:

tt321 wrote:

NCV wrote:

It would be nice to see some of the photographs that have this problem to help others form perhaps a more balanced opinion.

I wonder in the general case when we encounter problems like this with our cameras and lenses whether it would not be better to have the camera checked out by a technician before posting on the web. In a certain sense we are accusing the manufacturer of putting on the market a defective product with all that implies, which is then possibly read by many prospective buyers of these goods.

It's exceedingly difficult, for most of the public, to have anything checked by a technician. Many, if not most, of the people even buy equipment without having talked to the seller face to face.

The very first batch of such discussions were originally started by people who did check with the manufacturers, or the manufacturers' contracted service providers and essentially got bland 'within spec' verdicts without any more detail. That motivated them to go online and check with other users whether there was a pattern. That got more people to scrutinize their own gear and got some testing sites to test for this kind of thing - this kind of thing being sharpness not related to shutter speeds in a monotonic manner. At some point increasing the shutter speed causes sharpness to decrease.

Following on from above I am surprised the Olympus and Panasonic and the others do not have somebody to cast their eye over what is written on some of the major Forums and Blogs now and again.

What makes you think they don't? Canon developed the electronic first curtain, not for nothing. Sony picked it up to use in their NEX line, again not for nothing. Panasonic found an elegant solution in the fully electronic shutter which could be marketed for silent operation purposes and help avoid any admission of shutter shock. In contrast, the electronic first curtain has a single purpose and is tantamount to admitting that your previously sold lots of stuff with shutter chock embedded, or for this particular camera implemented a shutter with such a problem. Olympus first said they did not see an issue, but left the door open by saying they would certainly investigate, then followed up with the 0 setting, which cures the problem for most people. Now even Nikon is adding electronic first curtain to the D810.

The last development is interesting because that makes Sony's assertions that the 36MP sensor in the A7R makes it not practical to do an electronic first curtain shutter arrangement. Well Nikon has done it and so probably soon Sony could too. And then non-m43 mirrorless would be strengthened and m43 needs to respond.

It is true that the vibration caused by the focal plane shutter in every camera with this type of shutter summed together with the optical limitations of our lenses causes image degradation .This fact is as old as photography and we just have to live with it. It is also possible that a camera also has a design fault.

With the electronic first curtain and full electronic shutter options as readily available solutions, not including them is a design fault from the shutter shock point of view. But it may not be a design fault from the point of view of how much you are going to get charged for licensing the tech, and how much effort you need to include it on a particular model at the point of its introduction. Olympus' adding such a feature using firmware is an excellent example of a manufacturer doing more for its customers at no additional cost or the virtual blackmail situation of requiring them to buy a new model.

Some of the replies above strongly criticize a camera that I happen to own (EM5) and which has produced pictures free of shutter shake to a degree that has rendered them unusable for printing to a large size.

This came out of people who have noticed the problem. If you don't have this problem, why worry? The only 'problem', as it were, would be if this affects the resale value.

All very valid and true points.

You are right I come from a time when in a town of 100.000 we had two camera repair shops. In this case things have changed for the worse. But still, if I saw that of my EM5's was giving me un-sharp pictures in certain circumstances then I would send it off to Olympus for a service by courier.

Exactly how did you test for the possibility that your E-M5 shows signs of shutter shock? And if you didn't test systematically, how do you know that it doesn't?

If when I print to a large size and If my prints are sharp (which they are) then I presume I do not have SS. Or if I have, it is within acceptable levels. Not very scientific I know.

Saying it is within acceptable levels is not the same as saying that you don't have it (at all). Based on my own testing with my E-M5 and various lenses, I'd say it is within acceptable levels with some of them (7.5/3.5 FE, 12/2, 20/1.7, 45/1.8, 7-14/4, and 14-45/3.5-5.6 if I use OIS rather than IBIS) but unacceptable with others (75/1.8, 40-150/4-5.6, 100-300/4-5.6). I don't know of anyone here among those who have actually tried to test for this in a systematic manner who would claim that the problem is always of such a magnitude as to be easily visible and disturbing.

I think we can agree that image degradation from the shutter is always in theory present even if it is at imperceptible levels

Yes.

If it came back with the same problem then I would sell it quietly and move on to something else.

Why remain quiet about it? If nobody complains, then cures of the kind now offered would most likely have remained unavailable.

You are very right and perhaps a bit wrong. Right for a multitude obvious reasons . Wrong when I see images posted that are said to have shutter shock but on closer examination suffer from camera movement .

But shutter shock is due to camera movement (or movement of parts of the camera), just not movement due to ordinary hand shake. However, I see your point and you are certainly entitled to ask for proper evidence.

I remember one in particular that presented circular movement on the edges . This depends on the user asking himself whether he is knowledgeable enough to be sure he is suffering from SS.

When I pointed out this circular movement to the OP in the case above, the reply was not very polite to say the least. So Web forums are not always the best place to resolve and debate these questions

I believe the drawback to the electronic shutter is this:

Correct me if I am wrong.

You are right.

I worry because these posts remove the confidence one may have in ones equipment.

I had a Nikon D70 back in the mists of time and every other Nikon forum post talked about the “green light of death” that these cameras suffered from. In my subconscious I was always expecting my camera to die at any moment. It never happened. This fine little camera travelled all round Europe and even got crammed into my briefcase for a work assignment in Mexico. I sold it and as far as I know it may still be helping someone enjoy photography.

I sometimes wonder if some of these scares are started by competitors. I believe there is even a name for this type of marketing.

So I reply when I have got time to kill remembering the Nikon D70 incident.

I don't know what the "green light of death" was really about. But I don't think the proper solution to problems of the type you mention is to keep quiet.

My point was that a problem that may effect lets us say a batch of cameras is amplified by the web into a common fault, which causes us to lose confidence in our equipment.

But I find little reason to think that we are in this case dealing with just a faulty batch. There is considerable evidence indicating that the problem is generic, although it may certainly manifest itself with different strength for different bodies and lenses, including individual specimen of bodies and lenses.

Perhaps it is me, but I must have complete confidence in my kit, maybe a hangover from the 10 year stint I did a professional theatrical photographer : http://nigelvoak.blogspot.it/2013/11/another-age.html

I like to have confidence in my gear to. That's part of the reason why I have spent considerable time testing for shutter shock. I want to know to which extent I have the problem so that I can work around it.

Finally I will be ever grateful to you for your threads and posts to one of my threads concerning the fisheye and Panini projection

Happy to hear that!

PS It perturbs me that the OP is not able to post images illustrating his problem. http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53942650

As already mentioned, I think it is entirely fair to ask for evidence, and not just illustrations (since shutter shock is not necessarily diagnosable on the basis of single images) but testing methods and results more generally.