EXR Confusion not fully resolved

Started Jan 25, 2014 | Discussions thread
DS21 Senior Member • Posts: 2,304
Re: Will EXR Confusion ever be fully resolved?

photoreddi wrote:

DS21 wrote:

photoreddi wrote:

Timur Born wrote:

photoreddi wrote:

Yes, as I've been saying for ages, and as I've been telling you here in this thread. But that's not the only confusion or disagreement here, as I've just pointed out in my other reply that concludes with a mention of Trevor's "party trick" theory.

You should not just assume that your definition of "pixel" is the best/correct one. CMOS are after all "A-ctive P-ixel S-ensors".

Oh, look mum, it says "pixels" and it's directly from Fujifilm's own website?!

Yes, it's from Fujifilm's website, but I'm sure that you know that it's wrong. Who do you think created that? Fuji's engineers or someone in Fuji's marketing department, trying to keep from confusing potential customers that are familiar with megapixel sensors but wouldn't know what to make of megaphotosite sensors? The color filter arrays are also an artist's interpretation, not what the actual CFA layout looks like. Rotating the middle CFA does NOT produce the CFA on the right.

It's abundantly clear by now that you're not interested in having a reasoned argument that gets to any truths. You're just out to try to score debating points, so don't expect me to waste any more time with you here.

It's quite enjoyable to see someone taking an issue with the self proclaimed "EXR experts" of the forum, and having a time and skill to burst their bubbles a little. Great job.

Thanks. As far as I see it, nobody outside of Fuji insiders, those that have signed NDAs or perhaps some like a few of DPR's people that have met with Fuji's engineers and have been given some additional information not intended for the public (with or without an NDA) really knows what's inside those EXR black boxes. We may create mental pictures of how we think EXR sensors work but it's still just educated guesses based on scraps and bits of incomplete information found on internet websites and forums.

Also as I see it, some people are a little too invested in appearing to be "EXR experts" and claim to know what goes on inside those EXR black boxes. Yet when asked for links to real documents or white papers, little more is shown than marketing material. While I've been critical of some of what Trevor has written, if I recall correctly he has reversed himself one or two times on how he thinks that EXR sensors work. This isn't said to criticize him because I think that the flexibility to be open to new ideas and the willingness to admit to it is a good thing. He also has done some interesting analysis of the timing of the two halves of the EXR DR images in RAW files that show subject movement. But I think that he still hasn't fully sussed it out.

In the end, what seemingly starts out as interesting (to some of us) discussions of EXR technology devolves into what I'm sure that most of us see as boring, turgid arguments that don't forward any better understanding, merely repeating arguments and conclusions that are embedded in stone. I really wouldn't mind it if my understanding of the way EXR sensors work is shown to be wrong. Then we'd all learn something. But I need to be convinced, either with real data or with elegant reasoning, not by being pummeled into submission with unproved, unchanged positions.

I too tried to discuss the EXR workings with the two most vocal experts, where I thought they were wrong, but very soon I realized it is just a waste of time. But I fully agree with your position that we can only assume what is really going on, especially in JPEG, but never know for sure. I, for one part, don't buy the assumed fact that the second set of photosites is not used at all when ISO is larger then DR in M size mode (ay least in JPEG in non-RAW enabled cameras). It that would be the case, there would be much more noise compared to EXR SN mode, but it is often less noise so both 6 MP halves are probably still used (one exposed shorter) and noise is still averaged out between the two halves.

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