Once in a year opportunity : ) .... messed up. : (

Started Dec 1, 2013 | Discussions thread
OP GeorgianBay1939 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,037
Re: What do you expect at 1/6th?

greenarcher02 wrote:

marike6 wrote:

greenarcher02 wrote:

marike6 wrote:

greenarcher02 wrote:

marike6 wrote:

antoineb wrote:


from where I'm sitting, you sound like you're trying to make sound horribly complicated and messy, something that's so simple.

Do you think?

This is a perfect example of over-thinking a photographic situation by making long lists of mistakes and potential fixes like "use base ISO". Base ISO? At night? Don't you think you should be going in the other direction on the ISO scale?

The OP's GX7 train image was 1/6 at ISO 800!!! By the way, tripods are always appropriate at night, but in this case you still need a fast enough shutter speed to freeze motion blur.

Here is my list for ways to improve above image:

1) Mount a large aperture lens like the PL 24 f/1.4 and crank up ISO until your shutter speed is fast enough to freeze the train

2) Take image

2) Go get some hot chocolate or an adult holiday beverage.

He wanted an underexposed image. Or he didn't want to freeze motion. It actually works, now I'm not sure how intense the light was from the train, but this was at night, ISO 200, handheld. I didn't have a tripod because I was commuting from work, and was bored, and just... clicked... while waiting for my ride. This isn't actually that nice of an image, but you can really shoot at night, handheld. And you can even go at faster shutter speeds but have an underexposed image. Depends on what you want.

Sorry that I deleted an underexposed, faster shutter speed version of this.

So please... stop dissing the fact that he wanted to go base ISO. Night does NOT always equal higher ISO. He probably wanted to have less of the train and just have lights and some reflected lights off the snow...

If you are not shooting locked down on a tripod, night usually DOES mean higher ISO settings. Especially how dark it appeared in the second image from the OP.

Like in this fairly lousy image I made, but you get the idea. ISO 200, 0.7 sec at f/10, X-E1/18-55 tripod mounted

But I did miss the part where he said he wanted to blur the lights of the train. But even so, the easiest and best way to do what he wanted to do was to use a tripod, and a slow shutter speed (as you'd get with base ISO at twilight). So I'll stand by what I said, it's not complicated. Without IBIS and/or extremely fast f/0.95 type m43 lens, you will need some kind of support to shoot with a slow shutter speed and still get a sharp image.

This image I shot handheld, but I needed ISO 4000 at f/3.2 to even get 1/30. And the lens has OIS.

f/3.2, ISO 4000 gave me only 1/30, so I disagree that you can shoot base ISO at night without support

But to shoot light trails, as the OP wanted to do with the Christmas lights on the train, a tripod would be by far the easiest way.

I'm not sure what he really wanted, but he did mention underexposure and that he shoots light, not objects.

Sometimes you just have to work with what you have. And sometimes you don't have a tripod.

He had enough time to write a long dissertation listing all the things he did wrong and hoped to improve, complete with formulas for calculating EV level, but he couldn't be bothered with bringing he tripod?

That came after. You know, I can pretty much forget to bring a camera and still write a whole thesis about it after the whole thing. You do realize it's a one time deal, probably only for a few seconds. And he ran with what he grabbed first impulsively. Unfortunately, that didn't include a tripod. You realize that, right?

He isn't trying to make night look like day. You can question his technique all you want but shooting at base ISO at night (with lights) is still possible. It will yield an underexposed image. Which is sometimes appropriate for Christmas lights.

If he exposes for the lights, no it will not look like day. But neither does it look like day in any of the images above. The difference is there is more ambient light from the street lamps.

The difference is we wanted to capture more light and details on poorly lit areas. So it will look closer to day shots. And they do look closer to day. Your second one looks like dawn.

You understand now? Is it that hard? Do I have to shoot later at night of an underexposed image just to show you how it looks like?

If you keep things really basic I'll see if I can wrap my little old brain around what you just said. Give me a break,

Well... Just imagine your image without all the details. Just the brightest of the lights showing. Boring I know, but that's obviously what he's aiming for it it's definitely possible at base ISO.

Hi Greenarcher,

First, I hope that Typhoon Haiyan did not harm you, your friends or family.  Our news reports indicate that Haiyan's path was about 150 mi southwest of Manila.

I have read your conversation with Marik6 above and have concluded that, although YOU see the point of my original post, I have not been very effective in communicating it to some others.

So here is a two point summary: [ In addition to all of the poor photographer-ship that I displayed (lens selection, lack of planning, lack of tripod, bad camera settings,  lack of clear idea of the subject, etc  ) MY BAD.]

Assuming that I wanted an image of this subject: THE LIGHTS WITH SOME CONTEXTUAL SNOW:

  1. I lost control of the exposure by letting the camera over-expose the image of the lighting, resulting in camera shake blur, motion blur, blown/clipped highlights and a failed image. 
  2. I over-gained ISO to 800, unnecessarily risking further clipping of the highlights and reducing DR of the sensor.

1.   I think that folks now agree that the image is overexposed.   The question is how much?  My (boring) analysis is now ~2-3 stops.   Are there other estimates?

2.   If I use a wider lens (20mm 1.7) and increase shutter speed to 1/125 I have increase the EV by one stop.  (decrease the Exposure by one stop).  So I could easily decrease  ISO to base 200 and still easily recover the lighting on the snow.  This is the discussion that Clengman and I are having .... (with a bit of the learner leading the learner!)

[NOTE  ... the careful reader will note that I have made the test less stringent ... due to the use of the f/1.7 lens.]

So for MY POINT OF VIEW, I would really appreciate some authoritative discussion* of the issue 2) above.    The issue of reducing ISO to increase DR and thereby using post processing to lift the shadows at (minimum) noise.

*  I do not include this as an "authoritative discussion".   It is just rude.



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