the K3 is perfectly tiimed to hit C and N where they hurt

In real life shooting, of a user base of many thousands (of any brand camera), how many want to fill a buffer with RAW shots in a single burst?
Actually, a RAW depth of 6 is very problematic for any sort shooting, even portraiture. I like to shoot back to back shots and if a 6 shot buffer fills up it means missed shots. Say you are posing a model and do quick 10 pose shots back to back, annoying to say, "hold up a second, my camera is processing."

I love my Samsung NX300 but never consider using it for a professional shoot because even though it shoots 8 fps, it only has a 5 frame RAW buffer. This fills up in about half a second at max speed, or even if I am shooting 1 shot every second or so it fills up in less than 10 shots.

The Nikon is at least more responsive shot to shot than my NX300, but still a pathetically small buffer.

Eric
I own an NX210 and a D7100.

The Nikon is way, way faster. There's no comparison. With the Samsung you shoot a few single shots in RAW and the camera freezes, You can't even make any adjustments until it finishes doing its thing. The D7100 will shoot uncompressed RAW at 2.7 frames/second indefinitely, even with a full buffer.

See:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d7100/12

It's only really slow if you shoot RAW+JPEG at max quality.

If you shoot JPEG-only the problem goes away.
 
I wandered in to this thread thanks to a search for something else. As a long-time Nikon user (please don't hold it against me!) I'd observe:

Competition is always good and in the last few years there have been so many mergers and failures that basically there's nowhere to go but up. It's also nice to see that there are new sensor formats being tried and form factors. How many of these will survive in any great measure, it's too soon to say.

For example, do we really need 4/3 and APSC? Only time will tell how the market shakes out. Best to keep an open mind but my guess is that whoever has the fewest different lens mounts may end up with the most profitability because fewer manufacturing lines will be needed. However, that's just a guess.

How features get implemented is also important as merely having them. For example on some discussion fora here, birding photos are 'birds in flight' where in others the birding images are 'birds standing around.' I think that eventually the smaller companies' AF systems will catch up but actually, unless you're actually shooting sports there is little super-urgent-gotta-have need for them to because the profits these manufacturers may get could be quite small.

Pentax appears to be adding very big feature sets to their cameras at their relative price points. That's their competitive advantage. In comparison, Canon and Nikon have differentiated product lines.

The point being that even if Pentax had the most stupendous AF system in the history of AF systems, cameras need to be thought of as platforms; in the photo industry this is critical. If the rest of the chain isn't there, the investment in a super AF system may not ever pay off. Best to dominate a particular price point where they can maximize profitability. Besides, I suspect that any replacement AF would eliminate in-body stabilization, which is currently key to Pentax's marketing. (In body stabilization caps the upper limit of the AF's system's responsiveness because figuring out the focus while adding stabilization are competing needs.)

In my opinion, the D800 killed the D400 market.

At the $3k price point, the pro bodies have no place to have a serious price point between the consumer D610 and the D800. Nikon's pro bodies have more than 40 switch positions and buttons and I'm guessing Canon's pro bodies are the same. You can reprogram the camera while running and never need to look at the screen once you learn where the buttons are. Once you have that there's never any going back to a consumer camera. That and the high sync speed that PJs depend on for fill flash, compact flash storage, high shutter life, and other goodies are part of the pro lines. Just looking at the MP and the buffer isn't a big enough check list.

Besides, there's pro support.

So, were does a $1400 pro body replacement get placed relative to the D610 and the D800? The D300s is a great camera and a real workhorse for small and medium-sized newspapers. I think that it got squeezed between two price points. Given that the D800 does everything the D300s does only better, that there are still D3s for sale and comparatively reduced prices, I think the price point basically got squeezed from above and below.

If you try to be strong everywhere, you may end up being weak everywhere. Were I to make a recommendation to Pentax product development it would be to focus on profitability and for that, their AF system is probably good enough for 99 per cent of their market. They need to get the best deals on components (Sony currently makes their sensors and I recall reading that Seiko makes their shutters but don't quote me on that); I'd wait to let others decide whether 4/3rds or APSC 'wins'; and have the least number of products with the longest lifecycle in the middle of the market.

I remember being told once that if you can't get rid of something, make it the most important thing. Well, were I Pentax, I'd ship all cameras with bright split diopters and other 'friendly' options like big buttons to make their cameras not intimidating and a pleasure to use.

I'd say their primary competition are companies like Sony or Fuji and not Canon or Nikon.

All the best, gentlemen.

--
Could you all move half an inch to the left? Okay, pretend you like each other and smile.
 
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I've often wonder why Pentax marketing doesn't go all out in places like the UK, where apart from everything else it has a definitive advantage. I tried to convince a friend who lives in Lancashire, but he ended up with a Sony, didn't seem to know what a Pentax was...
 
tcom wrote:...

... my usual shop borrowed me a D700 with the Sigma 50-150 HSM, it was like night and day for sports photography and was pretty much what decided me on adding Nikon to my equipment.
I do not consider the Sigma 50-150 that much superior to the DA*50-135, but then, it performed so much better.
Interesting, that's what I use on my FF cameras as well (Sigma 50-150 f/2.8 HSM II) because of the lightning-fast focusing speed.

It's an aps-c lens, but if you can live with the MP on D700 (5.5) or D800 (15) it's a very sweet combo.
 
after the K3 was announced, both Canon and Nikon sent secret messages to numerous Private equity firms imploring them to buy Canon and Nikon at pennies to the dollar. They knew that the K3 would bankrupted them and were desperate to recoup what few millions of equity remaining.

One equity firm offered to buy both Canon and Nikon for 34 dollars and 21 cents.
 
But it's not a product differentiator. I think the feature mix to price point is and it's easy to show on the side of a box.

--
Could you all move half an inch to the left? Okay, pretend you like each other and smile.
 
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I wandered in to this thread thanks to a search for something else. As a long-time Nikon user (please don't hold it against me!) I'd observe:

Competition is always good and in the last few years there have been so many mergers and failures that basically there's nowhere to go but up. It's also nice to see that there are new sensor formats being tried and form factors. How many of these will survive in any great measure, it's too soon to say.

For example, do we really need 4/3 and APSC? Only time will tell how the market shakes out. Best to keep an open mind but my guess is that whoever has the fewest different lens mounts may end up with the most profitability because fewer manufacturing lines will be needed. However, that's just a guess.

How features get implemented is also important as merely having them. For example on some discussion fora here, birding photos are 'birds in flight' where in others the birding images are 'birds standing around.' I think that eventually the smaller companies' AF systems will catch up but actually, unless you're actually shooting sports there is little super-urgent-gotta-have need for them to because the profits these manufacturers may get could be quite small.

Pentax appears to be adding very big feature sets to their cameras at their relative price points. That's their competitive advantage. In comparison, Canon and Nikon have differentiated product lines.

The point being that even if Pentax had the most stupendous AF system in the history of AF systems, cameras need to be thought of as platforms; in the photo industry this is critical. If the rest of the chain isn't there, the investment in a super AF system may not ever pay off. Best to dominate a particular price point where they can maximize profitability. Besides, I suspect that any replacement AF would eliminate in-body stabilization, which is currently key to Pentax's marketing. (In body stabilization caps the upper limit of the AF's system's responsiveness because figuring out the focus while adding stabilization are competing needs.)

In my opinion, the D800 killed the D400 market.

At the $3k price point, the pro bodies have no place to have a serious price point between the consumer D610 and the D800. Nikon's pro bodies have more than 40 switch positions and buttons and I'm guessing Canon's pro bodies are the same. You can reprogram the camera while running and never need to look at the screen once you learn where the buttons are. Once you have that there's never any going back to a consumer camera. That and the high sync speed that PJs depend on for fill flash, compact flash storage, high shutter life, and other goodies are part of the pro lines. Just looking at the MP and the buffer isn't a big enough check list.

Besides, there's pro support.

So, were does a $1400 pro body replacement get placed relative to the D610 and the D800? The D300s is a great camera and a real workhorse for small and medium-sized newspapers. I think that it got squeezed between two price points. Given that the D800 does everything the D300s does only better, that there are still D3s for sale and comparatively reduced prices, I think the price point basically got squeezed from above and below.

If you try to be strong everywhere, you may end up being weak everywhere. Were I to make a recommendation to Pentax product development it would be to focus on profitability and for that, their AF system is probably good enough for 99 per cent of their market. They need to get the best deals on components (Sony currently makes their sensors and I recall reading that Seiko makes their shutters but don't quote me on that); I'd wait to let others decide whether 4/3rds or APSC 'wins'; and have the least number of products with the longest lifecycle in the middle of the market.

I remember being told once that if you can't get rid of something, make it the most important thing. Well, were I Pentax, I'd ship all cameras with bright split diopters and other 'friendly' options like big buttons to make their cameras not intimidating and a pleasure to use.

I'd say their primary competition are companies like Sony or Fuji and not Canon or Nikon.

All the best, gentlemen.
 
I'm not about to leave C for a camera that makes me use a jittery view through the viewfinder, and makes my cameras AF sensors (try to) work with that same view, because only the sensor is stabilized.

If there was a chance in the world that I'd consider switching, IBIS on a DSLR would drive me away from the idea.
 
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Well, the sad part is that should a photojournalist take the K3 for events photography and use it with the lens with the equivalent 70-200 range, the DA*50-135/2.8, will notice that the fast action packed camera is useless for what he intends to do since Pentax features almost the slowest AF on this lens in the whole lens offering (with the exception of the DA*55 which is even slower). When asking Pentax, he will receive the same reply as I have gotten, we are not the target audience of Pentax... That's why I added nikon a few years ago. Still today, Pentax seems to make no effort in redesigning a 50-135 with an AF fast enough for concerts or sport events... The fastest camera is useless when the brand can only offer slow focusing lenses.
Are the lenses slow to focus, or is it the handicap of IBIS on a DSLR that makes it harder for the sensors to lock focus on an unstable / unstabilized image? C and N use optical stabilization in their DSLR's and I think it's for more reason than to charge extra for stabilized lenses.
 
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A second item of interest is the really robust water/weather proofing that Pentax offers. I have toyed with the idea of getting a Pentax DSLR and 300mm waterproof lens for bird photography from a kayak. I have seen several videos of kayakers dipping their Pentax into the stream and then firing off some shots.
It's always great to rinse off your lens before shooting! Or were they snapping some fish photos for good measure?
 
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I've been looking at some threads of Nikonians hurting over the lack of a D400, and something somebody said there crystallized exactly why they're in pain, and why the situation is no better in Canonland. It is this: for the last few years, neither of those companies has offered a new high-speed action oriented body outside of the top end pro photojournalist tier! Many users of both brands are desperate for an affordable camera that is fast, regardless of whether it's FF or crop.
You know why they want a D400 or 7D2? To use their super fast focusing 300 F4, 400 F4.6, 70-200 F2.8, 100-400, 80-400 with.

What do you propose they use when they switch to Pentax? Pentax's problem has never really been body value, but lens line up, especially for sports and wild life shooters.
 
It may indicate that the two big (aka N and C) still rule.....

It seems that Df will steal sales from a lot of brands, really the opposite of what is suggested in this thread.

Also I notice a lot of interest in Sony a7/a7r...

Then, the next move will come from C.. maybe the medium format some people are talking about?

With limited wallet size and the competition reacting so fast and furious, some body else is going to suffer.
 
It may indicate that the two big (aka N and C) still rule.....

It seems that Df will steal sales from a lot of brands, really the opposite of what is suggested in this thread.

Also I notice a lot of interest in Sony a7/a7r...

Then, the next move will come from C.. maybe the medium format some people are talking about?

With limited wallet size and the competition reacting so fast and furious, some body else is going to suffer.
Sure they still rule - they dominate the camera market. Yet the DF to me is just a huge pander to AARP crowd. Basically it is a $3k indulgence into fake nostalgia. It will sell initially, but wait for the discounts later on.
 
Well, the sad part is that should a photojournalist take the K3 for events photography and use it with the lens with the equivalent 70-200 range, the DA*50-135/2.8, will notice that the fast action packed camera is useless for what he intends to do since Pentax features almost the slowest AF on this lens in the whole lens offering (with the exception of the DA*55 which is even slower). When asking Pentax, he will receive the same reply as I have gotten, we are not the target audience of Pentax... That's why I added nikon a few years ago. Still today, Pentax seems to make no effort in redesigning a 50-135 with an AF fast enough for concerts or sport events... The fastest camera is useless when the brand can only offer slow focusing lenses.
Are the lenses slow to focus, or is it the handicap of IBIS on a DSLR that makes it harder for the sensors to lock focus on an unstable / unstabilized image? C and N use optical stabilization in their DSLR's and I think it's for more reason than to charge extra for stabilized lenses.
The lenses are slow to focus.

I hope you realize that IBIS or in lens stabilization is only useful for own camera shake, it will not freeze the moving athlete or player you are trying to photograph.
 
Well, the sad part is that should a photojournalist take the K3 for events photography and use it with the lens with the equivalent 70-200 range, the DA*50-135/2.8, will notice that the fast action packed camera is useless for what he intends to do since Pentax features almost the slowest AF on this lens in the whole lens offering (with the exception of the DA*55 which is even slower). When asking Pentax, he will receive the same reply as I have gotten, we are not the target audience of Pentax... That's why I added nikon a few years ago. Still today, Pentax seems to make no effort in redesigning a 50-135 with an AF fast enough for concerts or sport events... The fastest camera is useless when the brand can only offer slow focusing lenses.
Are the lenses slow to focus, or is it the handicap of IBIS on a DSLR that makes it harder for the sensors to lock focus on an unstable / unstabilized image? C and N use optical stabilization in their DSLR's and I think it's for more reason than to charge extra for stabilized lenses.
The idea thwt IBIS inhibits focus is completely baseless. The two have nothing to do with each other.
 
Where are people getting this crazy FUD about sensor stabilization and autofocus? It makes no sense. Sounds like somebody felt threatened.
 
It may indicate that the two big (aka N and C) still rule.....

It seems that Df will steal sales from a lot of brands, really the opposite of what is suggested in this thread.

Also I notice a lot of interest in Sony a7/a7r...

Then, the next move will come from C.. maybe the medium format some people are talking about?

With limited wallet size and the competition reacting so fast and furious, some body else is going to suffer.
I can just see the Df trying to steal sales from Canon or Sony -- creeping up behind them trying not to make noise with its cane, getting out of breath whenever it has to walk fast...

The Pentax crowd probably has more people into that forced retro approach than most other brands do, and I still don't think it'll draw very many.
 

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