Sony mirrorless FullFrame!?!?

Started Oct 4, 2013 | Discussions thread
tt321 Forum Pro • Posts: 10,265
Re: If I wanted a large camera I would have gone FF already (nt)

ultimitsu wrote:

tt321 wrote:

You went to great lengths to cherry-pick heavy and large and uncommon examples of M43 to compare with FF standard issue lenses. Fine.

No, that is a dishonest accusation. I did not cherry pick anything these are the only M43 lenses that have true comparable FF counter parts. Even 20 F1.7 vs 40 F2.8 are getting a bit far from being comparable. your so called more common lenses such as 25 F2.4 or 45 F1.8 have no FF counter part.

I did not have any evidence, other than first impressions, to make that particular statement. Apologies.

I could do the same with Sony APSC vs. FF Canon when you asked me to (see below), and I am surprised I did not have to cherry-pick so much. Just used your examples and voila.

I still have no idea what you are on about. My point is, and has been repeated several times now, larger sensor does not mean larger lens. What exactly did you prove with sony example? that I am right?

You specifically asked which Sony lens was larger and disappointingly so than Canon SLR equivalent lenses. I gave examples. It now would seem that satisfying one of your specific demands was not what you wanted. Although puzzled, I am OK with this.

You said there is nothing preventing FF mirrorless from having similarly sized lenses to SLR FF, which is technically true, but in reality, a company that's not able or willing to make APSC lenses comparable in size to Canon SLR lenses is expected to suddenly change heart and grow expertise to now make their FF lenses comparable to Canon SLR lenses and thus smaller than their own equivalent APSC ones?

You premises is wrong to begin with, Sony APS-C lenses are not "disappointingly" bigger or smaller than canon's APS-C lenses. And you have not provided evidence to that effect.

The word "disappointingly" was yours to begin with. I don't believe one could argue about the precise point where something becomes disappointing because this is by definition a subjective thing.

Not have you explained why sony is interested in making lenses bigger than they need to be, is it a cost saving thing? or is it a brand image thing?

I'd tentatively use one of your favourite phrases back at you and ask what you are "on about".

I must clarify that I did not say that Sony made lenses bigger than they need to be. I just gave examples where NEX APSC lenses are bigger than Canon SLR FF equivalents. Whether they needed to do that is only known to them.

You yourself did not explain "why" CV "made lenses bigger" than Canon FF equivalences. Why are you expecting me to do what you yourself did not?

Why some company did something is less interesting, and less observable, than whether they did it.

bottomline is, you failed to explain why Sony want to make lenses larger,

Why should I have? And where did I say Sony wanted to make lenses larger? They did (which is observable) and they wanted (which is not determinable by anyone else) are two different things. I am surprised to be asked to explain something I have no way of knowing.

or that they are indeed making lenses that are larger.

Are you sure? If by "larger" you meant APSC lenses larger than FF rough equivalents, you don't need me to "explain" this. I did describe some cases so am a bit surprised to receive this allegation.

current NEX lenses do not suffer vignetting to the same degree as Leica lenses, but they do generally suffer from poor design. That however has got nothing to do with the point I was making.

Why should they not carry on the poor design into their FF venture, at least for a few more years?

They very well could, I am not a fan of sony product personally but this debate has got nothing to do with what Sony could do, it is abotu what is objecively possible, re-read Mainp16's post which I responded to which you then responded to.

Again, are you sure? Are the heavy CV examples you found on M43 the objectively possible limit of M43 lens sizes in that range? Surely you know that we cannot prove objective possibility with existing commercial examples only.

Fundamental engineering principles would indicate that everything else being equal, a lens that covers a smaller image circle should not be larger than another covering a larger one, if we are talking about what's objectively possible. There may exist multiple counter-examples in the marketplace, but these have nothing to do with what's objectively possible.

I thought this was obvious, and based on this assumption, tried to discuss market reality and advised caution that expecting Sony to suddenly become more efficient in FF when they had not really been in APSC is too early - we have yet to see the implementations.

I'm all for great advancements in FF mirrorless and the eradication of SLR dinosaurs this could bring,

Why do you care if SLR is eradicated? LOL do their emotionally hurt you or something?

I used to count the number of statements in a dialog up to the point where one conversation partner starts psycho-analysing the other. This one has come respectably late

But to answer your question of why: the shorter each technology node lives on the average, along a line of development, the more progressive that line of development is. I like photographic technologies and want to see them progress at a faster pace. SLRs have flourished for too long. Hopefully it will not be as long as battleships or steam engines or, indeed, dinosaurs.

Since starting to use M43 I've wanted to see the demise of the format, on technological development grounds so that I could start enjoying some technical benefit not available to M43 (e.g a larger sensor without the inconveniences). However, the great white hopes touted as M43 killers time and again have disappointed so far.

regardless how good A7 is, FFDSLR is not going away, not for another 20 years. but that is not what A7 is set out to do anyway. What A7 will hurt a lot is Leica M.

I suspect you are right, but really hope not. Let's wait and see.

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