Wifi - Olympus and Panasonic need to do this...

hindesite · Sep 14, 2013

We're just starting to see the possibilities of wifi capable cameras, but the Panasonic G6 implementation of the interface on Android is appalling. It is chunky; unreliable; inconsistent (as bad as their menus!) slow; limited functionality; difficult to set up; not tailored to touchscreen use (inscrutable icons with no labels, and you can't hover on a touchscreen) and only available through official apps for Android and iOS.

Sony have just recently announced and published the API for their wifi controlled cameras:

http://camera.developer.sony.com/

This is the only way we're going to achieve the full potential of wifi control, people will come up with quite innovative uses for this.

Olympus and Panasonic need to both do this, or they are going to fall behind what Sony will achieve in the near future.

Of course, for this to happen, O&P need to have a well designed API that is platform independent and accessible from any OS; need to have a well structured and documented API that doesn't artificially limit functionality, and know exactly what they are doing. From my experience with the G6, I doubt this is the case.

berni29 · Sep 14, 2013

Hi

I agree with you. Wireless control is very useful, and opening up the API is the way to go.

Berni

Prokyon · Sep 14, 2013

yes and a common api for all manufactures would be even better

Manip16 · Sep 14, 2013

Both Panasonic and Olympus should unify their implementations under a single standard and release that. That way it will be a "m43" WiFi standard and we'll see far more third party apps and tools.

I think once there is an open standard people will find creative ways to use it, like timelapse, remote control, and similar applications that the manufacturers themselves would never have implemented.

In general the m43 concept hasn't reached its full potential. While the mount is standardised nothing else in the system tries to be. This might help both manufacturer's bottom lines in the short term but it only makes both of them weaker against Canikon (which frankly they cannot afford) over the long term.

At the very least flashes and an accessories port needs to be standardised.

Manip16 · Sep 14, 2013

Prokyon said:
Prokyon wrote:

yes and a common api for all manufactures would be even better

Unfortunately capitalism isn't really the type of economic model where everyone works together unless they have a financial incentive to do so.

Most manufacturers see their "apps" as being a value-add, so they want to out-app the competition, and they cannot do that if it is a common API across the board.

The best we can really hope for is for Olympus and Panasonic to agree on something. As far as Canon, Nikon, Fuji, Pentax, and others I am sceptical they would even consider it.

Frankly if we want to start talking about utopian ideals then all manufacturers would be using an open source off-shoot of Google's Android on their cameras and consumers would be able to install the same OS on any camera body they owned.

Jim T · Sep 14, 2013

So far I find the GH3 WIFI control App on my Android Phone and Tablet perfect my uses. As a start it's perfect and like most things mobile a flood of Apps is sure to come.

hindesite · Sep 14, 2013

Member said:
Jim T wrote:

So far I find the GH3 WIFI control App on my Android Phone and Tablet perfect my uses. As a start it's perfect and like most things mobile a flood of Apps is sure to come.

The best I can say about the G6 implementation is, it is better than anything previously available, but IMHO it is pretty awful really. I guess people have different expectations.

The "flood of Apps" will only be for Sony, unless Olympus and Panasonic fix and publish their APIs and court the developer community (at least Panasonic have a better track record here) - but I doubt there will be enough interest or motivation unless they do this.

hindesite · Sep 15, 2013

Manip16 said:
Manip16 wrote:

Both Panasonic and Olympus should unify their implementations under a single standard and release that. That way it will be a "m43" WiFi standard and we'll see far more third party apps and tools.

That would be ideal, but even if the APIs were different but accessible we'd still see a heap of progress. Without it, I doubt we'll see much at all.

Manip16 said:
I think once there is an open standard people will find creative ways to use it, like timelapse, remote control, and similar applications that the manufacturers themselves would never have implemented.

Given the way that Olympus already seems to be a little behind Panasonic in this area, maybe they'd be more interested in a public API.

Manip16 said:
In general the m43 concept hasn't reached its full potential. While the mount is standardised nothing else in the system tries to be. This might help both manufacturer's bottom lines in the short term but it only makes both of them weaker against Canikon (which frankly they cannot afford) over the long term.

You'd think they'd realise that their cooperation in defining the mount has been a major factor in M4/3 success - I doubt either would have been as successful if they'd tried to go alone - that they'd be keen to apply it to other areas. If they diverge too far they'll just end up trying to steal customers of each other, while confusing prospective buyers.

Manip16 said:
At the very least flashes and an accessories port needs to be standardised.

It seems strange that they are not.

MrTaikitso · Sep 15, 2013

Samsung have the correct approach, using Android. An open source OS opened up to creative developers.

I hope the GX9, NEX-9 and OM3? are powered by Android, we'll not only have a standardised general navigation interface (Home, Back, Menu etc), but benefit from apps from independent developers, of which there are thousands.

It would be interesting to see if Canon and Nikon dare do this to their pro cameras.

1D + Jelly Bean?

Enough to make a pro blush!

Øyvin Eikeland · Sep 15, 2013

hindesite said:
hindesite wrote:

We're just starting to see the possibilities of wifi capable cameras, but the Panasonic G6 implementation of the interface on Android is appalling. It is chunky; unreliable; inconsistent (as bad as their menus!) slow; limited functionality; difficult to set up; not tailored to touchscreen use (inscrutable icons with no labels, and you can't hover on a touchscreen) and only available through official apps for Android and iOS.

First I would like to second your wish for an open api. Next I need to say that the panasonic implementation of nfc+wifi is a lot better than what sony has on the rx100mII. I had the sony for two weeks but exchanged it for a g6 because I decided I really really wanted a viewfinder after all. The Sony refused to connect about half of my attempts (every time I wanted to show it to someone). A normal connect would take about one minute. With the panasonic I have had exactly two incidents where I had to fiddle to get connected. In those cases I got immediate feedback that the phone was unable to connect. With the sony i would just have to wait and see (argh) . Connections on the panny happen quicker and I actually use it daily (I am on vacation at the moment). The menus are strange/ugly and I hate the fact that I can only have four share-to options at a time (I want mms+mail+facebook+blogger+instagram+snapseed at least). I have found that the most efficient way to do this is to copy the photos first and use another app for editing and sharing. The workflow to do this is pretty elegant:

1. Show a picture on the camera

2. Start app on phone (you may have to select set connect. Dest. In the menu)

3. Touch camera to phone (wait for connection=20 sec) Photo will automatically be copied

4. Show another photo on camera and touch camera to phone again. Photo is copied over

5. Repeat 4. until you have the shots you need. Bonus: you do not have to wait for the transfer to complete to get on with the next one!

6. Find your photos in the ImageApp folder on your phone(android)

My phone is a samsung galaxy s3 with android 4.1.2. My point is that an open api doesnt help much if the functions under the hood are as rotten as they seem to be on the Sony.

Regards,

Øyvin

Aberaeron · Sep 15, 2013

hindesite said:
hindesite wrote:

hindesite said:

Jim T wrote:

So far I find the GH3 WIFI control App on my Android Phone and Tablet perfect my uses. As a start it's perfect and like most things mobile a flood of Apps is sure to come.

Click to expand...

The best I can say about the G6 implementation is, it is better than anything previously available, but IMHO it is pretty awful really. I guess people have different expectations.

The "flood of Apps" will only be for Sony, unless Olympus and Panasonic fix and publish their APIs and court the developer community (at least Panasonic have a better track record here) - but I doubt there will be enough interest or motivation unless they do this.

--
http://hindesite.co.nz

The biggest problem I have with the G6 app is the lack of guidance on how to use it and get the best out of it. Hopefully someone like Graham Houghton will make a Youtube 'getting the best from' series on it. By the sounds of it, and in my opinion based on a few comments he made, he is a bit tired of the lack of co-operation and interest from Panasonic. It takes so much time and effort to make tutorials that the manufacturer should surely pay someone of his calibre to do so. It is very much in their interest to have customers that are satisfied and happy with their product rather than frustrated.

Pedagydusz · Sep 15, 2013

hindesite said:
hindesite wrote:

hindesite said:
[...] If they [Panasonic & Olympus] diverge too far they'll just end up trying to steal customers of each other, while confusing prospective buyers. [...]

Isn't it what is already happening? And the general tone of many users of this forum shows just that! Olympus fanboys attack every new Panasonic product with such ferocity that is only equalled by Panasonic fanboys attacking the new Olympus products.

Would really many people welcome a common API?

And, lets be real, Olympus does not even correct Panasonic MFT lenses for CA!

--

Antonio

ferrer

Gosto de Fotografia há mais de 40 anos. Comecei com uma Zeiss Ikon Ikoflex, comprada com o primeiro dinheiro que ganhei (ao terminar o Liceu). Depois, as SLR: Praktica, Pentax SP 1000, Olympus, Canon EOS 500 (e várias compactas). Entrei no digital com uma Olympus C2100uz, e depois voltei à...

ferrer.smugmug.com

Royi Avital · Sep 15, 2013

I wrote about it here:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52115947

I agree with you, it will free the Camera Manufactures from doing what they aren't good at, building Modern Camera UI and focus on what they do best, the mechanical and electronic side of the camera.
The UI will be on the smartphone / tablet developed by many many other people.

We should see the camera as an extension to the camera.

We must put pressure on Olympus / Panasonic to open the API.
Write on it over and over, keep on the first page, ask DPReview to ask about it the Olympus and Panasonic people, keep on the social networks and email service.

We need it, and they need it, it will bring many customers.

hindesite · Sep 15, 2013

Aberaeron said:
Aberaeron wrote:

Aberaeron said:

hindesite wrote:

Aberaeron said:

Jim T wrote:

So far I find the GH3 WIFI control App on my Android Phone and Tablet perfect my uses. As a start it's perfect and like most things mobile a flood of Apps is sure to come.

Click to expand...

The best I can say about the G6 implementation is, it is better than anything previously available, but IMHO it is pretty awful really. I guess people have different expectations.

The "flood of Apps" will only be for Sony, unless Olympus and Panasonic fix and publish their APIs and court the developer community (at least Panasonic have a better track record here) - but I doubt there will be enough interest or motivation unless they do this.

Click to expand...

Aberaeron · Sep 16, 2013

hindesite said:
hindesite wrote:

hindesite said:

Aberaeron wrote:

hindesite said:

hindesite wrote:

hindesite said:

Jim T wrote:

So far I find the GH3 WIFI control App on my Android Phone and Tablet perfect my uses. As a start it's perfect and like most things mobile a flood of Apps is sure to come.

Click to expand...

The best I can say about the G6 implementation is, it is better than anything previously available, but IMHO it is pretty awful really. I guess people have different expectations.

The "flood of Apps" will only be for Sony, unless Olympus and Panasonic fix and publish their APIs and court the developer community (at least Panasonic have a better track record here) - but I doubt there will be enough interest or motivation unless they do this.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

RickPick · Sep 16, 2013

MrTaikitso said:
MrTaikitso wrote:

Samsung have the correct approach, using Android. An open source OS opened up to creative developers.

I hope the GX9, NEX-9 and OM3? are powered by Android, we'll not only have a standardised general navigation interface (Home, Back, Menu etc), but benefit from apps from independent developers, of which there are thousands.

It would be interesting to see if Canon and Nikon dare do this to their pro cameras.

1D + Jelly Bean?

Enough to make a pro blush!

hindesite · Sep 16, 2013

Pedagydusz said:
Pedagydusz wrote:

Pedagydusz said:

hindesite wrote:

[...] If they [Panasonic & Olympus] diverge too far they'll just end up trying to steal customers of each other, while confusing prospective buyers. [...]

Click to expand...

Isn't it what is already happening? And the general tone of many users of this forum shows just that! Olympus fanboys attack every new Panasonic product with such ferocity that is only equalled by Panasonic fanboys attacking the new Olympus products.

Would really many people welcome a common API?

And, lets be real, Olympus does not even correct Panasonic MFT lenses for CA!

--

Antonio

http://ferrer.smugmug.com/

I think it is quite important not to confuse attitudes and discussion that you see on this forum with what is actually happening in the real world. I'll bet a lot of the "attacks" are by people who never actually buy the camera they are so keen on - let alone use and get decent results from it.

Of course people aren't going to care about whether the API is open or not - they'll only care about the end result - the apps - and will give little thought to how that has been achieved.

hindesite · Sep 16, 2013

MrTaikitso said:
MrTaikitso wrote:

Samsung have the correct approach, using Android. An open source OS opened up to creative developers.

Are you sure about that? I don't know, but I would have assumed that the Galaxy cameras are running the standard Samsung camera OS (whatever that is) and Android is only used to present the user interface and other tablet functions.

MrTaikitso said:
I hope the GX9, NEX-9 and OM3? are powered by Android, we'll not only have a standardised general navigation interface (Home, Back, Menu etc), but benefit from apps from independent developers, of which there are thousands.

I hope not. The ergonomics would be terrible - I'd rather let the manufacturers do the hardware and controls (even if they don't get it 100% correct), but have anybody try secondary interfaces like tablet remote control.

MrTaikitso said:
It would be interesting to see if Canon and Nikon dare do this to their pro cameras.

1D + Jelly Bean?

Enough to make a pro blush!

I think the whole discussion about Android on phones is misguided, simplistic and wrong. I think people know about Android so they think it is some kind of solution. Why not have cameras running WinRT? WinCE would have been the default choice a few years ago!

Camera manufacturers have a lot locked up in the OSes that they have developed for their cameras over the years. They've optimised them for image analysis, capture and processing, low battery consumption - they are very closely tailored to their hardware. They also allow manufacturers to control when features are added and how they are marketed - for example not making RAW available on some cameras unless you pay extra for a higher spec model.

Android is in comparison a resource hungry general purpose OS that probably isn't really suited as a camera OS, and I don't want it running my camera.

The camera OS isn't relevant, but how easily you can access the functions it offers is important.

hindesite · Sep 17, 2013

Manip16 said:
Manip16 wrote:

Manip16 said:

Prokyon wrote:

yes and a common api for all manufactures would be even better

Click to expand...

Unfortunately capitalism isn't really the type of economic model where everyone works together unless they have a financial incentive to do so.

We need to show there is a financial incentive - for example more sales if they cooperate - than blindly assuming there is none. There are a lot of people who would develop apps for free or low cost, usually because they can see how to do something that nobody else has, and this would stimulate the market at almost no cost to the manufacturers. Taking the view that somebody else might gain as being a reason for not doing this is wrong and has been demonstrated clearly many times over.

Manip16 said:
Most manufacturers see their "apps" as being a value-add, so they want to out-app the competition, and they cannot do that if it is a common API across the board.

Well, judging on the current state of the apps, there seems little likelihood of "out-apping" anybody. That is something best left to the experts on the app platforms and people with passion. Panasonic can barely put a consistent menu together, let alone build a killer remote control app. We're actually lucky they aren't charging for the apps - a few years ago they probably would have.

Manip16 said:
The best we can really hope for is for Olympus and Panasonic to agree on something. As far as Canon, Nikon, Fuji, Pentax, and others I am sceptical they would even consider it.

I doubt there would be any consensus among all manufacturers, but they do sometimes agree on things. This almost needs to be a standard, like EXIF, DCIM, DPOF. Just because we see it as something new and innovative doesn't mean there won't be a standard built around it. communication over wifi to do particular tasks should be no different to communicating over USB. That said, the different manufacturers have a history of deliberately making things non-standard even if it annoys their users. Like Nikon's reverse bayonet direction, or differing rotation for focus and aperture.

Manip16 said:
Frankly if we want to start talking about utopian ideals then all manufacturers would be using an open source off-shoot of Google's Android on their cameras and consumers would be able to install the same OS on any camera body they owned.

No, they can't - the camera OS is a realtime OS and it and the hardware are too tightly interwoven. For example, Canon use LSI hardware, a huge investment for them, which contains a lot of the software used to run the camera, effectively "hardwired" if you like - the OS for camera hardware that they use is a realtime OS called DryOS. They can run Linux on top of that to provide other functionality, but they don't and cannot use a general purpose OS in the camera hardware itself. The downside of running a general purpose OS as an additional layer on the camera adds cost, complexity, components, size and power drain. The case for doing this has to be pretty well made, and I don't think it is necessary. We just need open accessible APIs.

rrr_hhh · Sep 17, 2013

Pedagydusz said:
Pedagydusz wrote:

Pedagydusz said:

hindesite wrote:

[...] If they [Panasonic & Olympus] diverge too far they'll just end up trying to steal customers of each other, while confusing prospective buyers. [...]

Click to expand...

Isn't it what is already happening? And the general tone of many users of this forum shows just that! Olympus fanboys attack every new Panasonic product with such ferocity that is only equalled by Panasonic fanboys attacking the new Olympus products.

Thinking to fanboyism, I find this curious : from reading this list I often get the impression that most of the forumers are young aggressive guys needing to assert themselves, yet all the members statistics show that the DPreview audience is mainly composed from people over sixty who have long be using film SLRs. Let's say that frequenting the internet has a rejuvenating effect on retired people with too much free time at hand

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