Why does DPReview FORCE Flash upon us???

http://www.attilahartwig.com/
http://www.dirklambrechts.com/
http://jimmymcgrathphoto.com/
http://www.kurtarrigo.com/
http://www.stoporillshoot.com/
http://www.veronikafaustmann.com/
http://www.amivitale.com/
http://www.kistphoto.com/

so? for those who have flash, what about those site ? great photographers, great design, easy acess...IMHO flash is THE creative media on internet,you can't live without it.if your computer is to slow running those site, i think it sould beimpossible for u to process your picts

pask said:

it needs very small space on your hard disk
it's well build the is no conflict at all...
most of the best web site today are build with flash, can u really
surf on internet normally without flash ? i've made my porfolio
with flash,it's powerfull, design, dynamic.
if u don't use flash, java,realplayer,quicktime don't use internet,
it's simple

--
http://www.pp13.com :::come to see my folio here:::, no blabla,
just picts

Click to expand...

--
http://www.pp13.com :::come to see my folio here:::, no blabla, just picts

If really desparate I might turn flash back on (in opera F12), but in general I prefer to stay away from flash only sites. There many great photo sites that need flash.

pask said:

so? for those who have flash, what about those site ? great
photographers, great design, easy acess...IMHO flash is THE
creative media on internet,you can't live without it.if your
computer is to slow running those site, i think it sould
beimpossible for u to process your picts

pask said:

it needs very small space on your hard disk
it's well build the is no conflict at all...
most of the best web site today are build with flash, can u really
surf on internet normally without flash ? i've made my porfolio
with flash,it's powerfull, design, dynamic.
if u don't use flash, java,realplayer,quicktime don't use internet,
it's simple

--
http://www.pp13.com :::come to see my folio here:::, no blabla,
just picts

Click to expand...

--
http://www.pp13.com :::come to see my folio here:::, no blabla,
just picts

Click to expand...

pask said:

it needs very small space on your hard disk
it's well build the is no conflict at all...

Click to expand...

Well built? Far from it. It's intrusive and usually provides no functionality. Just Glits.

pask said:

most of the best web site today are build with flash,

Click to expand...

Let's take this web site for example. NONE of it's functionality has anything to do with flash. Where do you draw that conclusion from?

pask said:

can u really
surf on internet normally without flash ?

Click to expand...

Yes. Next question.

pask said:

i've made my porfolio
with flash,it's powerfull, design, dynamic.
if u don't use flash, java,realplayer,quicktime don't use internet,

Click to expand...

Woa is me. Little objects aren't shooting across my browser. My web sites load more quickly. Ads aren't jumping up and down to draw my attention from the content.

You and I use the internet differently.

Flash provides no functionality....it is only for flashy animations and neato effects.

It has it's place....but there's no way in hell I'd ever design a whole site with it...but to each his own.....

pask said:

it needs very small space on your hard disk
it's well build the is no conflict at all...
most of the best web site today are build with flash, can u really
surf on internet normally without flash ? i've made my porfolio
with flash,it's powerfull, design, dynamic.
if u don't use flash, java,realplayer,quicktime don't use internet,
it's simple

--
http://www.pp13.com :::come to see my folio here:::, no blabla,
just picts

Click to expand...

--
John

pask said:

http://www.pbase.com/mankman
Canon EOS 10D

Equipment list in profile...subject to change on a daily basis ;^)

Duct tape is like the Force. It has a light side, a dark side, and
it holds the universe together

Click to expand...

pask said:

it needs very small space on your hard disk
it's well build the is no conflict at all...
most of the best web site today are build with flash, can u really
surf on internet normally without flash ? i've made my porfolio
with flash,it's powerfull, design, dynamic.
if u don't use flash, java,realplayer,quicktime don't use internet,
it's simple

Click to expand...

Flash can be useful, but 99% of the time, it adds nothing of value to the site. Your portfolio is a good example: it's visually nice, but the animations are distracting, the "mystery meat" navigation is terrible, and the pop-up viewer is annoying. You have some nice photos there, but when I'm visiting a portfolio, I don't want to have to wade through all of the pictures -- instead, I want to see thumbnails and look at the ones that catch my eye in more detail.

You can make badly usable designs in HTML as well as Flash, but it's a lot easier in Flash.

Make your portfolio easy to "scan" -- see at a glance what's in it and focus on the stuff that catches your eye -- get rid of the pop-up viewer (very impolite), make the font sizes scalable (I can hardly see the tiny beige on beige on my monitor), and you'll get a lot more visitors. Of course, you can do this in HTML as well as Flash, which will further increase your amount of visitors... if this is your intent.

Must've been fun to do, though.

Petteri
--
Portfolio: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/ ]
Photo lessons: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/lessons/ ]

On multimedia sites it can be the only way to add annoying music sounds wizzy transitions.

But I have to say for a photography site it adds nothing to the quality of the image, makes navigation an interesting experience to say the least, and as for speed watch that counter crawl up to 100%, I use DSL and I would hate to think what the folks with dialup think.

Another thing is these flash sites are invisiible to search engines, not the site necessarily, but the images incased in flash. As search engines improve more and more people are going to do image based searches, and if you have them locked in flash tough.

I am all for progress but this is proprietry code at best and fluff at worst. Try navigating a flash site if you are disabled, no chance!
Make it relevant and make it effecient, don't make it FLash.

Geir Ove said:

Hello,

We have been spared for it for a long time. But now, every time I
go to the front page, IE 6.0 sits there for about 30 seconds before
it finally asks if I want to install Macromedia Flash! And NO, I
DON'T WANT THAT. For several reasons:

1) The space it takes up
2) The peformance resources it steals
3) Most importantly: I have had all sorts of conflicts with ohter
development tools that I use.
4) This should not be FORCED upon anybody.

I am of course free not to go to this site; is that what it boils
down to?

Is there a way to make IE skip this question and ignore plug-ins
like this without asking?

Geir Ove

Click to expand...

Yes, and how dare they force HTML upon us? What nerve!

Get a grip. If a compact app like flash taxes your resources, your computer is either a dog, or a dinosaur.

Face it. Flash is going to be here for a while.

Quit dragging your knuckles, and walk upright like someone everyone else. Why should throwbacks like you impede progress, because you can't adapt?

Ed

it create big plus value IMO.with so many site today on web, it's really important to have an identity, with good pict of course but with good design also.of course you can create a nice html site, but what about interactivity ? and flash is not bigger in terme of downloading time at all (1 pict on my folio is around 50k, while the all flash architecture is less than 100k !!!!)

You and I use the internet differently, you are using the old one, sorry

well, for sure, we

Petteri Sulonen said:

pask said:

it needs very small space on your hard disk
it's well build the is no conflict at all...
most of the best web site today are build with flash, can u really
surf on internet normally without flash ? i've made my porfolio
with flash,it's powerfull, design, dynamic.
if u don't use flash, java,realplayer,quicktime don't use internet,
it's simple

Click to expand...

Flash can be useful, but 99% of the time, it adds nothing of
value to the site. Your portfolio is a good example: it's visually
nice, but the animations are distracting, the "mystery meat"
navigation is terrible, and the pop-up viewer is annoying. You have
some nice photos there, but when I'm visiting a portfolio, I don't
want to have to wade through all of the pictures -- instead, I want
to see thumbnails and look at the ones that catch my eye in more
detail.

You can make badly usable designs in HTML as well as Flash, but
it's a lot easier in Flash.

Make your portfolio easy to "scan" -- see at a glance what's in it
and focus on the stuff that catches your eye -- get rid of the
pop-up viewer (very impolite), make the font sizes scalable (I can
hardly see the tiny beige on beige on my monitor), and you'll get a
lot more visitors. Of course, you can do this in HTML as well as
Flash, which will further increase your amount of visitors... if
this is your intent.

Must've been fun to do, though.

Petteri
--
Portfolio: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/ ]
Photo lessons: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/lessons/ ]

Click to expand...

--
http://www.pp13.com :::come to see my folio here:::, no blabla, just picts

tks ,your uk is better than mine, u've found the appropriated words )

pask said:

You and I use the internet differently, you are using the old one,
sorry

well, for sure, we

Petteri Sulonen said:

pask said:

it needs very small space on your hard disk
it's well build the is no conflict at all...
most of the best web site today are build with flash, can u really
surf on internet normally without flash ? i've made my porfolio
with flash,it's powerfull, design, dynamic.
if u don't use flash, java,realplayer,quicktime don't use internet,
it's simple

Click to expand...

Flash can be useful, but 99% of the time, it adds nothing of
value to the site. Your portfolio is a good example: it's visually
nice, but the animations are distracting, the "mystery meat"
navigation is terrible, and the pop-up viewer is annoying. You have
some nice photos there, but when I'm visiting a portfolio, I don't
want to have to wade through all of the pictures -- instead, I want
to see thumbnails and look at the ones that catch my eye in more
detail.

You can make badly usable designs in HTML as well as Flash, but
it's a lot easier in Flash.

Make your portfolio easy to "scan" -- see at a glance what's in it
and focus on the stuff that catches your eye -- get rid of the
pop-up viewer (very impolite), make the font sizes scalable (I can
hardly see the tiny beige on beige on my monitor), and you'll get a
lot more visitors. Of course, you can do this in HTML as well as
Flash, which will further increase your amount of visitors... if
this is your intent.

Must've been fun to do, though.

Petteri
--
Portfolio: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/ ]
Photo lessons: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/lessons/ ]

Click to expand...

--
http://www.pp13.com :::come to see my folio here:::, no blabla,
just picts

Click to expand...

--
http://www.pp13.com :::come to see my folio here:::, no blabla, just picts

tks ,your uk is better than mine, u've found the appropriated words )

Edwaste said:

Geir Ove said:

Hello,

We have been spared for it for a long time. But now, every time I
go to the front page, IE 6.0 sits there for about 30 seconds before
it finally asks if I want to install Macromedia Flash! And NO, I
DON'T WANT THAT. For several reasons:

1) The space it takes up
2) The peformance resources it steals
3) Most importantly: I have had all sorts of conflicts with ohter
development tools that I use.
4) This should not be FORCED upon anybody.

I am of course free not to go to this site; is that what it boils
down to?

Is there a way to make IE skip this question and ignore plug-ins
like this without asking?

Geir Ove

Click to expand...

Yes, and how dare they force HTML upon us? What nerve!

Get a grip. If a compact app like flash taxes your resources, your
computer is either a dog, or a dinosaur.

Face it. Flash is going to be here for a while.
Quit dragging your knuckles, and walk upright like someone everyone
else. Why should throwbacks like you impede progress, because you
can't adapt?

Ed

Click to expand...

--
http://www.pp13.com :::come to see my folio here:::, no blabla, just picts

Phil,

All due respect, or as we say, here kol ha kavod! You've created a tour de force of a communication and community service. dpreview is a masterpiece, especially in light of all the constraints and I've learned and enjoyed a tremendous amount. It's hard to stay away (just ask my wife!) from the masterful reviews and especially the forums. FYI, I use Safari 1.0 Beta 2 (v74) on my iMac 800 (OS X v10.2.6) without any especially mentionable glitches. I think your support decisions work fine and the threaded, nested forum design is a pleasure to use. If I were to make any suggestion, I'd place another set of local nav buttons at the foot of the nested lists, so that you don't have to scroll up to get back to 'next', 'previous', etc.

So, thank you VERY much for your efforts and your art!

All the best,

David

Edwaste said:

Geir Ove said:

Hello,

We have been spared for it for a long time. But now, every time I
go to the front page, IE 6.0 sits there for about 30 seconds before
it finally asks if I want to install Macromedia Flash! And NO, I
DON'T WANT THAT. For several reasons:

1) The space it takes up
2) The peformance resources it steals
3) Most importantly: I have had all sorts of conflicts with ohter
development tools that I use.
4) This should not be FORCED upon anybody.

I am of course free not to go to this site; is that what it boils
down to?

Is there a way to make IE skip this question and ignore plug-ins
like this without asking?

Geir Ove

Click to expand...

Yes, and how dare they force HTML upon us? What nerve!

Get a grip. If a compact app like flash taxes your resources, your
computer is either a dog, or a dinosaur.

Face it. Flash is going to be here for a while.
Quit dragging your knuckles, and walk upright like someone everyone
else. Why should throwbacks like you impede progress, because you
can't adapt?

Ed

Click to expand...

--
David

David A Smith

pask said:

it create big plus value IMO.with so many site today on web, it's
really important to have an identity, with good pict of course but
with good design also.of course you can create a nice html site,
but what about interactivity ? and flash is not bigger in terme of
downloading time at all (1 pict on my folio is around 50k, while
the all flash architecture is less than 100k !!!!)

You and I use the internet differently, you are using the old one,
sorry

Click to expand...

Actually, your Flash implementation looks rather "ringard" to me. I haven't seen much design like that since 2000 or so (except of course Campagnolo's website, and even they've fixed it somewhat some time last year). The usability revolution happened since then (and now the gurus are out of work because good usability design has hit the mainstream).

The Flash isn't the problem, though -- most people do have it. However, the design is. While it looks good, the site is hard to read, hard to navigate, and the animated transitions are annoying and distracting. I'm 100% certain that this causes many people to leave your site that would have stayed if they had been able to navigate it more easily.

Petteri
--
Portfolio: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/ ]
Photo lessons: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/lessons/ ]

Petteri Sulonen said:

Actually, your Flash implementation looks rather "ringard" to me. I
haven't seen much design like that since 2000 or so (except of
course Campagnolo's website, and even they've fixed it somewhat
some time last year). The usability revolution happened since then
(and now the gurus are out of work because good usability design
has hit the mainstream).

Click to expand...

hey dude did u check your web site? and you want to give me lessons ?

it's more than ringard man, i'm not telling that my web site is the best,but for sure your web site won't be seen at all 'caus there is nothin to see

good night
--
http://www.pp13.com :::come to see my folio here:::, no blabla, just picts

pask said:

Petteri Sulonen said:

Actually, your Flash implementation looks rather "ringard" to me. I
haven't seen much design like that since 2000 or so (except of
course Campagnolo's website, and even they've fixed it somewhat
some time last year). The usability revolution happened since then
(and now the gurus are out of work because good usability design
has hit the mainstream).

Click to expand...

hey dude did u check your web site? and you want to give me lessons ?
it's more than ringard man, i'm not telling that my web site is the
best,but for sure your web site won't be seen at all 'caus there is
nothin to see

Click to expand...

Funny, I get mail daily from people who've spent quite some time there and have seen something they like. I'm also paid a rather a decent salary for designing a rather a successful product with a UI based on the same principles.

It's clear that you're a pretty competent graphic designer and very competent photographer, but let's face it -- your usability design is bad, and unfortunately that's what really counts in websites.

Don't believe me? Then go look at the bookmarks of anyone who regularly surfs the web for a specific purpose. I'll bet you that the sites there are for the content (information, pictures, community) or services (shopping, mostly) that they provide.

I do know that my own bookmarks list includes everything from practically un-designed, moderately to really ugly vanilla HTML pages to ugly but functioning services (with good customer service to back it up), to extremely well designed and polished sites (like this one). The two things in common they have are (1) they provide information or services I find valuable and (2) they provide it in such a way that the benefit of accessing them is greater than the trouble.

Note that I don't discriminate against Flash (I've got it installed and running very well) -- but strangely enough, there's not a single Flash-based site among my bookmarks. It appears that Flash sites are way too focused on cool graphics and animations at the expense of content or usability.

As to my site, I didn't design it for flashy or trendy graphics: instead, I designed it for easy navigability, readability, and maintainability. For my main site, the technology is more sophisticated than it may appear -- it's an all-XML website off-line generated to HTML and PDF. It's a snap to update, the pages load fast, and I've tried to put the structure of the site "on the surface" (except for my portfolio, which I've divided into two layers because of the sheer number of pictures in it... and because I want to keep a bit of a "discovery" feel to it).

It is "ringard" in the sense that websites like it have been around since 1996 or so, of course... but books have been around in their current form since the 1500's, and a book design isn't usually considered old-fashioned. The title-and-main-links-at-top, search-field-at-top-right, sub-links at left layout is simply one that's easy to recognize and work with. Most people will spend most of their web time at websites other than mine (I hope!), and I try to be a good host and not force them to learn a whole new paradigm just to get at the stuff I've put on mine. With user interfaces, the tried and true almost always works best -- and radical innovation had better have very good reasons for it, other than simply looking kewl.

Petteri
--
Portfolio: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/ ]
Photo lessons: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/lessons/ ]

No doubt, but this really has nothing to do with flash. Phils site has no flash other than the adverts that I am aware of and that is a good thing. Most flash sites have TERRIBLE interfaceces. Trying to apeal to the teens...

Davidas said:

All due respect, or as we say, here kol ha kavod! You've created a
tour de force of a communication and community service. dpreview is
a masterpiece, especially in light of all the constraints and I've
learned and enjoyed a tremendous amount. It's hard to stay away
(just ask my wife!) from the masterful reviews and especially the
forums. FYI, I use Safari 1.0 Beta 2 (v74) on my iMac 800 (OS X
v10.2.6) without any especially mentionable glitches. I think your
support decisions work fine and the threaded, nested forum design
is a pleasure to use. If I were to make any suggestion, I'd place
another set of local nav buttons at the foot of the nested lists,
so that you don't have to scroll up to get back to 'next',
'previous', etc.

So, thank you VERY much for your efforts and your art!

All the best,

David

Edwaste said:

Geir Ove said:

Hello,

We have been spared for it for a long time. But now, every time I
go to the front page, IE 6.0 sits there for about 30 seconds before
it finally asks if I want to install Macromedia Flash! And NO, I
DON'T WANT THAT. For several reasons:

1) The space it takes up
2) The peformance resources it steals
3) Most importantly: I have had all sorts of conflicts with ohter
development tools that I use.
4) This should not be FORCED upon anybody.

I am of course free not to go to this site; is that what it boils
down to?

Is there a way to make IE skip this question and ignore plug-ins
like this without asking?

Geir Ove

Click to expand...

Yes, and how dare they force HTML upon us? What nerve!

Get a grip. If a compact app like flash taxes your resources, your
computer is either a dog, or a dinosaur.

Face it. Flash is going to be here for a while.
Quit dragging your knuckles, and walk upright like someone everyone
else. Why should throwbacks like you impede progress, because you
can't adapt?

Ed

Click to expand...

--
David

David A Smith

Click to expand...

Petteri Sulonen said:

Funny, I get mail daily from people who've spent quite some time
there and have seen something they like. I'm also paid a rather a
decent salary for designing a rather a successful product with a UI
based on the same principles.

Click to expand...

Very nice site Petteri. Elegant look, Slick fast access, no annoyances. I don't know if you have any flash, but worked fine without me activating flash.

I also went to Pask's site and got a blank biege page, now normally I would go away at this point figuring with that poor design there was nothing to see. But pask said there was something there, so I hit F12- enable plugins and tried again. This time, I got the beige screen and a pop-up with a graphic complete with mIxEd CaSe text. Yipee, turn the plug-ins back off as I am glad I was protected from this mess before.

The only times I turn on flash is play those funny flash movies people make...

Peter

Edwaste said:

Edwaste said:

Geir Ove

Click to expand...

Yes, and how dare they force HTML upon us? What nerve!

Get a grip. If a compact app like flash taxes your resources, your
computer is either a dog, or a dinosaur.

Face it. Flash is going to be here for a while.
Quit dragging your knuckles, and walk upright like someone everyone
else. Why should throwbacks like you impede progress, because you
can't adapt?

Ed

Click to expand...

I agree 100%!!! Taxes resources yada yada yada. Get a grip! Perhaps this is NOT your fathers Oldsmobile. Guess what? For some reason I can't run Quake 3 on a 286 with 2 megs of RAM. All high tech stuff is obsolete before it hits the store........such is life.....adapt or face extinction.

Bottom line folks is, that Phill needs advertisers to make a living so we can suck it all up for free. It's as easy as that. Perhaps all the groaners and moaners would rather have this a pay site?

Petteri's site is responsive, easy to navigate, and full of CONTENT. It's clear that you've yet to grow out of the "gee wiz" phase. I'm quite bored with you. Keep throwing your childish taunts. I'm done listening, "dude".

pask said:

hey dude did u check your web site? and you want to give me lessons ?

Click to expand...

Peter G said:

Petteri Sulonen said:

Funny, I get mail daily from people who've spent quite some time
there and have seen something they like. I'm also paid a rather a
decent salary for designing a rather a successful product with a UI
based on the same principles.

Click to expand...

Very nice site Petteri. Elegant look, Slick fast access, no
annoyances. I don't know if you have any flash, but worked fine
without me activating flash.

Click to expand...

Thanks. No Flash. Not out of principle, though, but simply because there isn't anything there that I wanted to do that would've needed it.

Petteri
--
Portfolio: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/ ]
Photo lessons: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/lessons/ ]

As usual, Dr. Don, you've cut right to the heart of it. Technology moves ahead at a rapid pace and while some of the "flash only" sites I've viewed are quite the PITA to view and navigate, I agree that flash is here to stay and when used judiciously can be very effective.

It's time for a person to upgrade if the amount of flash on dpreview taxes their machine's resources.

Dr. Don Sandell said:

Dr. Don Sandell said:

Dr. Don Sandell said:

Geir Ove

Click to expand...

Yes, and how dare they force HTML upon us? What nerve!

Get a grip. If a compact app like flash taxes your resources, your
computer is either a dog, or a dinosaur.

Face it. Flash is going to be here for a while.
Quit dragging your knuckles, and walk upright like someone everyone
else. Why should throwbacks like you impede progress, because you
can't adapt?

Ed

Click to expand...

I agree 100%!!! Taxes resources yada yada yada. Get a grip!
Perhaps this is NOT your fathers Oldsmobile. Guess what? For some
reason I can't run Quake 3 on a 286 with 2 megs of RAM. All high
tech stuff is obsolete before it hits the store........such is
life.....adapt or face extinction.

Bottom line folks is, that Phill needs advertisers to make a living
so we can suck it all up for free. It's as easy as that. Perhaps
all the groaners and moaners would rather have this a pay site?

Click to expand...