'France is plagued by bankruptcy and mass immigration’ - Marine Le Pen

Started Jul 1, 2013 | Discussions thread
RBFresno Forum Pro • Posts: 12,337
Re: Cuba: Paradise for all.......

DrugaRunda wrote:

RBFresno wrote:

DrugaRunda wrote:

RBFresno wrote:

Wheatfield wrote:

Cuba has a better health care system than the USA, and is both more honest and less violent than the USA.

Then I have a wish for you: That you experience the same wonderful Healthcare that Cuba has :

Problems within Cuba's health system, including:

  • Low pay of doctors.
  • Poor facilities—buildings in poor state of repair and mostly outdated.
  • Poor provision of equipment.
  • Frequent absence of essential drugs.
  • Concern regarding freedom of choice both for patient and doctor.

Katherine Hirschfeld, an anthropology professor at the University of Oklahoma, did her Ph.D. thesis on the Cuban health system, spending nine months conducting ethnographic work in Cuba in the late 1990s:

-"public criticism of the government is a crime in Cuba",

-"formally eliciting critical narratives about health care would be viewed as a criminal act both for me as a researcher, and for people who spoke openly with me". Nevertheless, she was able to hear from many Cubans, including health professionals,

-"serious complaints about the intrusion of politics into medical treatment and health care decision-making".

-there is no right to privacy in the physician-patient relationship in Cuba

-no patients’ right of informed consent

-no right to refuse treatment

-no right to protest or sue for malpractice".

-In her view medical care in Cuba can be dehumanizing.

-Cuban Ministry of Health (MINSAP) sets statistical targets that are viewed as production quotas.

-The most guarded is infant mortality rate. To illustrate this, Hirschfeld describes a case where a doctor said that if the ultrasound examination revealed "some fetal abnormalities", the woman "would have an abortion", to avoid an increase in the infant mortality rate.

- deliberate manipulation of health statistics, aggressive political intrusion into health care decision-making, criminalizing dissent, and other forms of authoritarian policing of the health sector designed to insure health changes reflect the (often utopian) predictions of Marxist theory".

-"the true extent of these practices was virtually unknown in the West", where "social scientists frequently cited favorable health statistics supplied by [these regimes], without critically looking at the ways these were created and maintained by state power".

-"Cuba’s health indicators are at least in some cases obtained by imposing significant costs on the Cuban population -- costs that Cuban citizens are powerless to articulate or protest, and foreign researchers unable to empirically investigate"

-foreign "health tourists" paying with dollars and senior Communist party officials receive a higher quality of care than Cuban citizens.

-the Cuban Government established mechanisms designed to turn the medical system into a profit-making enterprise. This creates an enormous disparity in the quality of healthcare services between foreigners and Cubans leading to a form of tourist apartheid.

- foreign patients were routinely inadequately or falsely informed about their medical conditions to increase their medical bills or to hide the fact that Cuba often advertises medical services it is unable to provide. Others makes similar claims, also stating that

-Senior Communist party and military officials can access this higher quality system free of charge.

An article in Canadian newspaper National Post, based upon interviews of Cubans, finds that in reality even the most common pharmaceutical items, such as aspirin and antibiotics are conspicuously absent or only available on the black market.

-Surgeons lack basic supplies and must re-use latex gloves. Patients must buy their own sutures on the black market and provide bedsheets and food for extended hospital stays.

A recent ABC-TV 20/20 report on Healthcare, based on footage taken from within the island, criticized Michael Moore's portrayals of the Cuban Healthcare system in the movie Sicko. In that film, Moore took a number of Americans to a hospital in Havana where they bought affordable drugs, and were given treatments for free that they could not afford in America. The report highlights the dilapidated conditions of some hospitals that are accessible to regular Cubans by pointing to the bleak conditions of hospital rooms and the filthy conditions of the facilities. The report also addressed the quality of care available to Cubans by arguing that patient neglect was a common phenomenon. Finally, in discussing the infant mortality rate, the report highlights the government's alleged efforts to promote abortions of potentially infirm fetuses and other alleged government efforts to manipulate the rate.

That's a bit on Cuba's great healthcare.

Care to guess about honesty in Cuba and crime?

Hint: Many Cuban's are so miserable that they'd gladly trade a higher crime rate for more freedom, opportunity, and less misery.


Cuban GDP per capita 6k USD - about 8x less than in US (about 90th in the world), and largely due to US sanctions (such a low level, it would be at least double or better without them).

Yep, that's the common excuse that Cuba gives for anything that doesn't measure up. The Cuban version of the Liberal mantra, "It's Bush's fault".

Cuban life expectancy - 79 years - the same as in the US (about 30th in the world).

See the above reference for how Cuba doctors up it's statistics. I suppose if I want to hear the truth about Cuba, I should dial up some videos of Castro describing Communist Nirvana. And what of the quality of that "life" in Cuba?

So they seem to be doing pretty well, and I am also sure that they do not have the gap between different groups in their country as you have in the US.


What"gap" are you referring to? Health Care?

The Communist party leaders in Cuba get the same care as the peasants and poor (Not)?


When race and education are combined, the disparity is even more striking. In 2008 white US men and women with 16 years or more of schooling had life expectancies far greater than black Americans with fewer than 12 years of education—14.2 years more for white men than black men, and 10.3 years more for white women than black women

You life prospects depend greatly on where you were born in the US, not so much in Cuba, so

Let's see.... I was grew up in a family of 6, to parents with no education beyond High School and making less than $11,000/year.

After High School, I officially "lived in poverty" for at least half a decade.

I now hold three degrees degrees from Stanford, and am in the (reviled by some ) "upper 1%". Just like would have happened to me in Cuba. (except I suppose I would have gotten better Medical Care[???])

More of my background here. You decide how I would have fared growing up in Cuba:

American Dream....

least in that respect they are more equal even though they do not have access to 50k USD of GPD per head on average as you have, but 8x less than that. Amazing, isn't it?

You want to talk "GDP" and "more equal"?


In the 1950's, Cuba's GDP was equal to that of Italy's.

Of course there was the dreaded maldistribution of wealth. The Cuban wealth is now more evenly distributed, along with the misery.

Citing Cuba as an example of having less of a "gap" than the U.S., brings to mind Maggie Thatcher's famous statement that "they'd rather (close the gap) if the poor were poorer as long as the rich were less rich" ..

Let's make the U.S. "more equal" (your term), by lowering it's GDP. And while we're at it, why not a "People's Revolution, also like Cuba, where Cuba has "institutionalized" corruption with state-run monopolies, cronyism, and lack of accountability, all making Cuba one of the world's most corrupt states.


Typically the life expectancy is not doctored, first as it is hard to do, and second because it has no benefit, so that point is weak.

See my reference to the contrary.

The point on Cuba's GDP dropping hard has to do both with their social organization and with US sanctions -

That's not your original contention.

While you personally did well in US system, clearly many of your countryman are unable to do the same. Is it just them to blame, or is it your system which perpetuates inequality?

Which "system"?

Under the current Administration, despite Obama's "middle class this and middle class that" who do you think has had their wealth eroded more: The rich, the middle class or the poor?

Take one of the largest groups in the U.S. that are undereducated and underemployed: Young, black males. Listen to this Nobel Laureate's comments regarding that (1:19):

Unholey coalition of "Do-Gooders" and Special Interests and effect of minimum wage on Black Unempoyment

Both countries are having issues, and by the looks of it, some Americans would have a lot longer life if nothing else - if they were living in Cuba.

You are the victim of falsification and distortion of statistics by Cuba:

Cuba's "Long Life Expentancy"

The Mythology od Cuban Health Care

But perhaps some Americans would live longer in Cuba. Especially those who, in the U.S. (but not Cuba) can afford to abuse themselves (and sometimes their unborn babies) with alcohol and drugs. One of the flaws in using infant mortality as a proxy for Health Care delivery is that even the best Health care can't counteract a low birth weight babyborn to a mother who has abused herself with drugs and alcohol. Do you suppose a "crack baby" born in the U.S. would fare better if born in Cuba?

It is interesting when you compare life expectancy by US States, they range is from 81 years in Hawaii to 75 years in Mississippi. Pretty wide gap, and a four year gap behind Cubans in some of those "red states".

Comparing the methodology  of data collection and analysis between the U.S. and Cuba as equivalent is not justified (see above references). Communist Regimes have long be expert at manipulating demographic data (see above reference's which you still have not obviously read).

Another interesting point - if you were in the state that voted for Obama on the last elections, you can expect to live 2 years longer .

Are you suggesting a cause and effect? Good Grief....

One way or another - there are issues everywhere, and making healthcare coverage more universal does not mean that you have to have Obama as a dictator for next 50 years. There is a middle ground, but current rethoric that I see coming from the US is "me - me - me - and the others can screw themselves"

That's not the majority of Americans..

, which despite of still very high economic production is leaving your country a very divided place, and in many cases like the third world, an "us and them" society.

Have you seen the statistics on the U.S. being a "divided place" since the election of the Divider -in-Chief?

Solution to it is accountability, transparency in a system which provides for both the rich and the poor,


As N. Pelosi said regarding the ineptly named "Affordable" Care Act, "you need to pass it to see what's in it". And this under a President who promised transparency, and that any bill would be on the Internet and/or C-span for enough time to have it reviewed by the public. A lie of the first order.


but you seem to be very resistant on doing anything to help anyone else out.

Who is the "you" that you are referring to? Helping out with what? Healthcare?

Obamacare as drafted, is rife with special treatment for special interests and favored groups, including the ability for some groups to opt out, and other groups not.

Just the new American way, or was it a dream?

Part of the  emerging "New American Way" is in  some ways reminiscent of the Old (Failed) Socialist Ways..


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