Will Thom's prediction come true? Locked

Started Jun 20, 2013 | Discussions thread
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bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 58,547
Re: You are digging your hole even deeper Bob...

Lin Evans wrote:

Bobn2 wrote:

Lin Evans wrote:

Bobn2 wrote:

Lin Evans wrote:

Bobn2 wrote:

Antone wrote:

Bobn2 wrote:

Neither Porsche nor Bentley is in business, they are both brands of Volkswagen AG. A rather unfortunate example on your part.

Nonsense.

What is nonsense, that Porsche or Bentley are part of Volkswagen AG? I'm afraid that is simply verifiable.

If they weren't profitable then they'd be shut down.

Of course as part of Volkswagen AG they contribute to the bottom line, but they were unable to survive as independent companies. The reason they work with VW is that they piggy-back on VW R&D, VW manufacturing, VW marketing, VW design and so on. If they had to design, develop, manufacture and market cars independently neither brand could or did survive.

Do you really think Volkswagon would continue selling cars that lost money? There'd be a shareholder revolt if they did. You did take freshman economics in college, right?

Did you?

Bob,

You simply don't have a clue what your are talking about - sorry....

That's false on two counts. First I do have a clue what I'm talking about, and second you are not at all sorry about what you said, otherwise you wouldn't have said it.

Porsche Automobil Holding SE, usually shortened to Porsche ([ˈpɔʁʃə]), is a German holding company with investments in the automotive industry.

Porsche SE is headquartered in Zuffenhausen, a city district of Stuttgart, Baden-Württemberg and is owned by the Piëch and Porsche families. In June 2013, Qatar Holdings, through the Qatar Investment Authority, sold its 10% holding back to the founding family, giving them 100% control. Porsche owns 50.73% of the voting rights inVolkswagen AG, and 50.1% of Porsche Zwischenholding GmbH, which owns 100% ofDr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG, the manufacturer of a range of sports cars and SUVs.

On July 2012, it was announced that Volkswagen AG was taking over the Porsche automotive company completely, which bears the same name, but is only a subsidiary of Porsche SE.

Lin

No Bob,

now you are contradicting yourself. You plainly stated that: "Neither Porsche nor Bentley is in business, they are both brands of Volkswagen AG. A rather unfortunate example on your part."

Now you are discussing "the Porsche car business" - Back to my suggestion that you also take a refresher 101 logic course as well.

Lin

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/jul/05/volkswagen-buys-porsche

Check the 2012 "date" on your link Bob, then do some further research and read what I posted more carefully and you will learn that:

In June 2013, Qatar Holdings, through the Qatar Investment Authority, sold its 10% holding back to the founding family, giving them 100% control. Porsche owns 50.73% of the voting rights in Volkswagen AG, and 50.1% of Porsche Zwischenholding GmbH, which owns 100% of Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG,

Porsche owns Volkswagen AG - Let me repeat that for your elucidation: Porsche "owns" Volkswagen AG... O.K.? Do you have that now?

Lin

We are off-topic, aren't we?

To try to drag it back, do you think the comment on Porsche and Bentley that I responded to referred to Porsche the investment company or Porsche the automotive company? I would think the automotive company, wouldn't you? Otherwise we'd be talking about Bentley the investment company, which doesn't exist. Also, taking about whether investment companies need a significant market share to be successful doen't make a whole load of sense, does it? And I credit Antone with a bit more sense than that - I think he was talking about who makes cars not who makes investments in car companies. The basic point, as I saw it, was that my point about success being tied to market share was wrong, since Bentley and Porsche were successful companies with tiny market share. That is wrong, they are both parts of a massive company with huge market share.

Now, with rspect to your Wikipedia reading skills. It pays to be aware of the incremental editing that goes on on Wikipedia, with the result that sometimes you get slightly garbled sentences like that. The 2013 date refers to Qatar selling back its 10% share in Porsche SE, not the 50.73 voting stake in VW. That dates from January 2009, not 2013 - and predates the takeover of Porsche AG. Let me give it to you from the 'horse's mouth':

Porsche Automobil Holding SE, Stuttgart, (Porsche SE, WKN: PAH003) is an investment holding company. The holding was established in 2007 for the management of its shareholdings in the Porsche operating business (Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche Aktiengesellschaft) and in Volkswagen Aktiengesellschaft. In connection with the creation of the Integrated Automotive Group of Volkswagen and Porsche, the Porsche operating business was transferred to Volkswagen Aktiengesellschaft in two stages (2009 and 2012).

Today, Porsche SE is the majority shareholder in ordinary share capital of Volkswagen Aktiengesellschaft and is therefore an anchor investor in the Wolfsburg-based automotive group. Porsche SE plans further strategic investments with focus along the automotive value chain.

http://www.porsche-se.com/pho/en/porschese/

So, what I said is correct, Porsche, as a car manufacturer is part of VW. Not stand alone. Not a company making a success with a tiny market share.

Anticipating what I'm sure is coming, how did the Porsche family make the money to have a majority stake in VW - well not in the main by making sports cars - not nearly a big enough business. Partly through its shareholding in VW - which it has held for a long time, partly through extensive investments in motor distribution and parts and partly because its 50.73 voting share only corresponds to a 32% equity share - so it's not as big as it seems.

And in the end, the equity transfers you refer to really represent a power struggle within the Porsche family, which has for long effectively controlled VW. In this case it was VW's Ferdinand Piech that got the better of his cousin, Porsche's Wolfgang Porsche - ending in a company with Piech at the top. Now what the equity stake looks like - as it said in the article that I quoted, it is a "restructuring" that can avoid the tax bill that previously kept the VW champagne on ice. Sorry, these arcane business deals and reverse takeovers are far beyond the scope of Business 101, even if you'd ever studied Business 101.

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Bob

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