SLT -1/3 stop?

saralecaire

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I read many say that the SLT reduces light transmission by about 1/3 stop.

If so, how dome DXOmark has the A99 low light score at 1555 vs the D600 (which apparently has a similar sensor) at 2980? Closer to 1/2 stop?
 
Nikon does some sort of tweaking to their sensors that usually seems to improve performance. Compare the A580 and D7000. Same sensor, no beamsplitter, different scores.
 
I read many say that the SLT reduces light transmission by about 1/3 stop.

If so, how dome DXOmark has the A99 low light score at 1555 vs the D600 (which apparently has a similar sensor) at 2980? Closer to 1/2 stop?
Sensor compensation.
 
saralecaire wrote:

I read many say that the SLT reduces light transmission by about 1/3 stop.
The 70/30 ratio of light loss is 1/2 stop, almost exactly, not 1/3 stop - always has been.
If so, how dome DXOmark has the A99 low light score at 1555 vs the D600 (which apparently has a similar sensor) at 2980? Closer to 1/2 stop?
The difference between 1555 and 2980 is almost one full stop.
 
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I also thought that there is a filter on the sensor to reduce the impact of the infrared light on the sensor and that sony was filtering more of the visible light than nikon. this also reduces the light on the sensor.
 
saralecaire wrote:

I read many say that the SLT reduces light transmission by about 1/3 stop.

If so, how dome DXOmark has the A99 low light score at 1555 vs the D600 (which apparently has a similar sensor) at 2980? Closer to 1/2 stop?
DXOmark's rating favors sensors that are tweaked to expose to the right, saturate early and consequently have a higher DXO ISO rating which ultimately affects low light score, and every other score. A consequence to it is that, with quick saturation sensors, chance of blowing highlights goes up. This is also a reason why A900 appears to be as good as A99 but in fact it isn't.

If you shoot with ETTR, you're technically doing what Nikon does. For all practical reasons, you're looking at a difference of only a half stop (between D600/RX1 and A99) but in exchange, you're getting full time AF/tracking in both stills and video modes.
 
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I did a visual comparison on DPR just now, comparing the A99 with the D600. In jpeg mode, I do not see the D600 produce better results at high iso. In fact, the A99 looks a little better.

But in RAW mode, the D600 appears to produce slightly better results, but not a full stop's worth. When I compare 3200 ISO to 3200 ISO for instance, the D600 looks slightly less noisy - but not by a heck of a whole lot. But the difference is there.

But then when I look at A99 at ISO 1600 and compare with the D600 at ISO 3200, the A99 looks better. If the difference were a full stop, then the results should have been different.

So, a quick and dirty comparison, it looks like 1/2 or 1/3 stop difference. Interesting that in jpeg mode though, the A99 produces better results at first glance.

But end of day, although DXO reports a whopping double ISO rating, it *feels* like the Nikon would crush the Sony all over the place. But when you compare images, the difference isn't so massive at all!

Last minute edit: ok, I just compared A99 at ISO 3200 and D600 at ISO 6400, and now, in RAW, it looks like the D600 produces the same noise as the A99. So that suggest it is indeed a full stop, at very high ISOs anyway. Less than 1 full stop at medium ISOs.
 
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In recent testing I found that both camera's(A99 & D600) placed in identical settings would result in the following:

Sony A99: 1/640s ISO6400
D600: 1/800s ISO6400

Now whether or not this equates 1/3 or 1/2 a stop, I don't know but the difference seemed consistent throughout the sensitivity range(ISO100-12800).
 
JohnBee wrote:

In recent testing I found that both camera's(A99 & D600) placed in identical settings would result in the following:

Sony A99: 1/640s ISO6400
D600: 1/800s ISO6400
You mean both cameras produced identical exposures with these settings? If so, that discrepancy doesn't mean much (ISO 'accuracy' can vary even within the same brand) and it has nothing to do with the SLT mirror. The SLT cameras already compensate internally for the 1/2 stop light loss by boosting the sensor gain behind the scenes.
 
These variations can also stem from metering differences between cameras.
 
JohnBee wrote:

In recent testing I found that both camera's(A99 & D600) placed in identical settings would result in the following:

Sony A99: 1/640s ISO6400
D600: 1/800s ISO6400

Now whether or not this equates 1/3 or 1/2 a stop, I don't know but the difference seemed consistent throughout the sensitivity range(ISO100-12800).
 
Wally626 wrote: Why the DXO ISO ratings are scoring the new Sony cameras so low I do not know.
That is primarily because of the way DXO measures ISO and then uses it for other measurements. And this applies differently to RX1 than to A99.

If sensor is tuned to, or by design, saturate early, it will have a lower DXO ISO. And as a result, all other measurements are impacted since DXO does not use exposure ISO for these ratings (whereas people assume they are one and the same).
 
EinsteinsGhost wrote:

DXOmark's rating favors sensors that are tweaked to expose to the right, saturate early and consequently have a higher DXO ISO rating which ultimately affects low light score, and every other score.
Dxomark's noise measurements are more or less ISO independent. The SNR graphs show how much noise you will get (vertical axis) a given light intensity on the sensor (horizontal axis).

In the ISO range where a camera is ISO-less, it doesn't really matter which ISO setting was used for the test. And consequently it doesn't matter which ISO measurement method DXO used.

In the ISO range where a camera is not ISO-less, the ISO setting will matter. So here it can influence the result - but in a much more indirect way than you indicate.

Since most cameras are ISO-less at high ISO, the noise measurements at high ISO are independent of ISO measurement method.
 
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Allan Olesen wrote:
EinsteinsGhost wrote:

DXOmark's rating favors sensors that are tweaked to expose to the right, saturate early and consequently have a higher DXO ISO rating which ultimately affects low light score, and every other score.
Dxomark's noise measurements are more or less ISO independent. The SNR graphs show how much noise you will get (vertical axis) a given light intensity on the sensor (horizontal axis).

In the ISO range where a camera is ISO-less, it doesn't really matter which ISO setting was used for the test. And consequently it doesn't matter which ISO measurement method DXO used.

In the ISO range where a camera is not ISO-less, the ISO setting will matter. So here it can influence the result - but in a much more indirect way than you indicate.

Since most cameras are ISO-less at high ISO, the noise measurements at high ISO are independent of ISO measurement method.
But, DXO quotes its other ratings based on sensor ISO. So, if a sensor that can absorb a lot of white light before reaching saturation, will have lower sensitivity to white light, which gets it lower sensor ISO which affects its low-light noise rating because, not exposure but sensor ISO is used to quote the measurements.

Whereas, out in the field, a person doesn't select sensor ISO, rather an ISO that computes to a proper exposure. And even if one chooses to shoot ISO-less (as I occasionally do), we're still exposing for a particular exposure ISO. For example, I use ISO 400 or 800 to shoot NBA action, at 1/500-1/640s, f/2.8. This is 1-2 stops underexposed, compared to ISO 1600, but without any consideration to DXO ISO.
 
saralecaire wrote:

I read many say that the SLT reduces light transmission by about 1/3 stop.

If so, how dome DXOmark has the A99 low light score at 1555 vs the D600 (which apparently has a similar sensor) at 2980? Closer to 1/2 stop?
It's quite an easy exercise to test for yourself. Just go over to the dp test pages and setting the A99 to 3200 and D600 at 6400. And you will see that the noise is very comparable.

In other words, at high ISO A99 is one full stop behind Nikons/Canons FF.
 
dpyy wrote:
saralecaire wrote:

I read many say that the SLT reduces light transmission by about 1/3 stop.

If so, how dome DXOmark has the A99 low light score at 1555 vs the D600 (which apparently has a similar sensor) at 2980? Closer to 1/2 stop?
It's quite an easy exercise to test for yourself. Just go over to the dp test pages and setting the A99 to 3200 and D600 at 6400. And you will see that the noise is very comparable.

In other words, at high ISO A99 is one full stop behind Nikons/Canons FF.
Closer to half a stop, since the D600, 5DMKIII and D800 are clearly noisier at ISO 6400 than the A99 at ISO 3200. Or ISO 12800 vs 6400.

25d7190892884de0936a39ae1d045899.jpg
 

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dpyy wrote:
saralecaire wrote:

I read many say that the SLT reduces light transmission by about 1/3 stop.

If so, how dome DXOmark has the A99 low light score at 1555 vs the D600 (which apparently has a similar sensor) at 2980? Closer to 1/2 stop?
It's quite an easy exercise to test for yourself. Just go over to the dp test pages and setting the A99 to 3200 and D600 at 6400. And you will see that the noise is very comparable.

In other words, at high ISO A99 is one full stop behind Nikons/Canons FF.
Nope. In fact, try ISO 6400 for all four (A99, D600, 5DIII and D800) and looking at Kodak Gray Scale, shifted to the right (dark chips). D600 is about half stop better. However, 5DIII and D800 have more chroma noise.
 
EinsteinsGhost wrote:
Allan Olesen wrote:
EinsteinsGhost wrote:

DXOmark's rating favors sensors that are tweaked to expose to the right, saturate early and consequently have a higher DXO ISO rating which ultimately affects low light score, and every other score.
Dxomark's noise measurements are more or less ISO independent. The SNR graphs show how much noise you will get (vertical axis) a given light intensity on the sensor (horizontal axis).

In the ISO range where a camera is ISO-less, it doesn't really matter which ISO setting was used for the test. And consequently it doesn't matter which ISO measurement method DXO used.

In the ISO range where a camera is not ISO-less, the ISO setting will matter. So here it can influence the result - but in a much more indirect way than you indicate.

Since most cameras are ISO-less at high ISO, the noise measurements at high ISO are independent of ISO measurement method.
But, DXO quotes its other ratings based on sensor ISO.
Yes. But think of those ratings as based on light intensity and not ISO, and suddenly everything makes sense.

When you compare the low light properties of two cameras, differences in metering and ISO definition doesn't really matter. What matters is how good a photo those cameras can create from a given quantity of light. And THAT is what DXO measure.
Whereas, out in the field, a person doesn't select sensor ISO, rather an ISO that computes to a proper exposure.
Exactly. And that is why DXO measurements make so much sense. That person only has a given amount of light at his disposal if he wants to avoid motion blur and opening up the lens too much, and he wants to make the most out of that amount of light.
 
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Allan Olesen wrote:
EinsteinsGhost wrote:
Allan Olesen wrote:
EinsteinsGhost wrote:

DXOmark's rating favors sensors that are tweaked to expose to the right, saturate early and consequently have a higher DXO ISO rating which ultimately affects low light score, and every other score.
Dxomark's noise measurements are more or less ISO independent. The SNR graphs show how much noise you will get (vertical axis) a given light intensity on the sensor (horizontal axis).

In the ISO range where a camera is ISO-less, it doesn't really matter which ISO setting was used for the test. And consequently it doesn't matter which ISO measurement method DXO used.

In the ISO range where a camera is not ISO-less, the ISO setting will matter. So here it can influence the result - but in a much more indirect way than you indicate.

Since most cameras are ISO-less at high ISO, the noise measurements at high ISO are independent of ISO measurement method.
But, DXO quotes its other ratings based on sensor ISO.
Yes. But think of those ratings as based on light intensity and not ISO, and suddenly everything makes sense.
Those ratings are based on saturation points reached with white light. The sooner the pixels saturate, the higher the sensitivity, the higher the ISO (relative to the exposure ISO) and you end up with a higher rating for low light noise.

So, "ISO" in either sense is not out of picture in DXO ratings.
When you compare the low light properties of two cameras, differences in metering and ISO definition doesn't really matter. What matters is how good a photo those cameras can create from a given quantity of light. And THAT is what DXO measure.
Whereas, out in the field, a person doesn't select sensor ISO, rather an ISO that computes to a proper exposure.
Exactly. And that is why DXO measurements make so much sense. That person only has a given amount of light at his disposal if he wants to avoid motion blur and opening up the lens too much, and he wants to make the most out of that amount of light.
It is what exposure ISO is for.
 
EinsteinsGhost wrote:
Allan Olesen wrote:
EinsteinsGhost wrote:
Allan Olesen wrote:
EinsteinsGhost wrote:

DXOmark's rating favors sensors that are tweaked to expose to the right, saturate early and consequently have a higher DXO ISO rating which ultimately affects low light score, and every other score.
Dxomark's noise measurements are more or less ISO independent. The SNR graphs show how much noise you will get (vertical axis) a given light intensity on the sensor (horizontal axis).

In the ISO range where a camera is ISO-less, it doesn't really matter which ISO setting was used for the test. And consequently it doesn't matter which ISO measurement method DXO used.

In the ISO range where a camera is not ISO-less, the ISO setting will matter. So here it can influence the result - but in a much more indirect way than you indicate.

Since most cameras are ISO-less at high ISO, the noise measurements at high ISO are independent of ISO measurement method.
But, DXO quotes its other ratings based on sensor ISO.
Yes. But think of those ratings as based on light intensity and not ISO, and suddenly everything makes sense.
Those ratings are based on saturation points reached with white light. The sooner the pixels saturate, the higher the sensitivity, the higher the ISO (relative to the exposure ISO) and you end up with a higher rating for low light noise.

So, "ISO" in either sense is not out of picture in DXO ratings.
Try this thought experiment:
  1. You set your camera at ISO 1600, illuminate the sensor with a given light intensity and measure the SNR.
  2. You set your camera at ISO 6400, illuminate the sensor with the same light intensity and measure the SNR.
  3. SNR result turns out to be the same in both situations.
How does ISO influence on the measurement if the result is the same regardless of chosen ISO?

This behaviour is the reality for most cameras.
When you compare the low light properties of two cameras, differences in metering and ISO definition doesn't really matter. What matters is how good a photo those cameras can create from a given quantity of light. And THAT is what DXO measure.
Whereas, out in the field, a person doesn't select sensor ISO, rather an ISO that computes to a proper exposure.
Exactly. And that is why DXO measurements make so much sense. That person only has a given amount of light at his disposal if he wants to avoid motion blur and opening up the lens too much, and he wants to make the most out of that amount of light.
It is what exposure ISO is for.
Please elaborate on that. I have no idea what you are trying to say.
 

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