The BIGGEST problem with my DP2M....

Started Apr 30, 2013 | Discussions thread
Raist3d Forum Pro • Posts: 37,518
Re: The BIGGEST problem with my DP2M....

richard stone wrote:

Raist3d wrote:

richard stone wrote:

And I think we (meaning all of us...) can say it is "good," not bad, when someone is excited or pleased with a camera and they enjoy using it.

Even if they have what "we" (meaning a few people who really can't see any benefit from Foveon sensors) might consider an inflated idea of its performance or results, etc. "We" (the few) might be wrong. (!) "We" (the few) might have different ideas about what makes a good image. "We" (the few, again...) might be incapable of "seeing" anything outside of what "we" like as a good image. Imagine that. (!)

This is in part the issue of people liking what they know....

And even more significantly, a camera that the user enjoys is going to get used more? Probably. Is this going to add significantly to the "art" and "beauty" in the world? Maybe not, considering the general level of photographic-style images in general, but it is at least possible. Meanwhile, the owner/user is pleased, and enjoys his camera, and that at least brings more joy into the world, not a bad thing. What is a bad thing is people telling the happy user that the camera he or she appreciates is really not very good.

Meanwhile, I am firmly convinced that some people simply cannot (or is it will not?) "see" any difference between Bayer images and those taken with a Foveon sensor, and I think they are mostly blind, but still, and indeed in part because they cannot see the difference, more to be pitied than scorned. No amount of arguing, no amount of well produced sample images, will convince them to open their eyes or their minds.

But Bayer cameras have their place, and I own several. They work great for snapshots.

And after all, this is a "gear" forum, and not one dedicated to "art" and composition, and even more significantly, this is the Sigma forum, so if a poster doesn't think the Sigmas are any good, maybe they should be posting in the forum where they actually like the camera in question? Think how that might improve their enjoyment of life. Or maybe they just like to argue and hold contrarian positions? Which is the more likely truth.


That would all seem fine and reasonable if it wasn't for the fact that the horse you decide to ride on is often the one putting down other cameras, technologies and completely blind to the compromises in using the "holy grail Foveon" as it if was some kind of epitome of sublime image quality perfection even often associating it (foolishly so) to a "better photograph."

Your very own assessment of

"But Bayer cameras have their place, and I own several. They work great for snapshots."

already points to what I just said and says more about you as a photographer (by light years) than the technology involved.

- Raist

Thank you Raist. I think you helped me make my point.

Some folks (like the OP) really like their Sigma camera(s), and they think the images are better than from any (reasonably equivalent...) "Bayer" sensor camera. How and why that opinion troubles some other people is quite mysterious.

I am afraid you completely misread what I wrote then because it hardly makes your point. You bang again that the camera images are better than from any Bayer.  That would be true if that held true, but it's not just an opinion that it is false but a fact.  This doesn't mean that Sigma's can't do better than a reasonably equivalent Bayer- they can.  But it has to be in the right circumstances.

And that's the difference here- the claim of ultimate perfection (as you just did in the paragraph above) and understanding that yes, the Sigma can indeed do better than a reasonably equivalent Bayer cameras if certain conditions are under a certain range.  The same goes for the Bayer cameras.

I appreciate the comments on my photographic skills. Modesty is a virtue. Richard

It certainly is but in case you missed it, it was not a compliment.  That you classify Bayer cameras "good for snapshots" necessarily implies that (i) you think somehow the technology makes a photograph (false), (ii) Bayer cameras can't work great other than snapshot- which again re-inforces a complete misunderstanding of what a photograph is about. Which then points necessarily to what that means of you as a photographer and it's not very good.

Of course, some time back you mentioned that it's good to know who is who and if people show work and photographs- something I whole heartedly agreed with you and I replied in kind. I never saw you posting on that even it was  you asking for it.

Why can't you hold yourself to your own standard?

You cannot reasonably say the Sigma enthusiasts are wrong when all they do is express an opinion.

Certainly not when it's an opinion even if I may not agree. But the statement made above is factually false which is a different story.

Perhaps that is why when such views are expressed it leads to the paroxysms and fulminations from contrary minded posters. Still, the responses are generally a source of amusement. And, speaking of amusement: Who said anything about horses? Unless you have perhaps left some horse droppings nearby?

Nobody said anything about horses.  What I mentioned is called an analogy. I thought it was not going to be over your head to use such analogy?  Pardon me if like me, English is not your first language and you really missed it. Not my intention by any means.

Oh and no droppings, just some facts. I am still waiting for your photos since you asked of me the same thing and I gave them.

The OP expressed his enthusiasm for the Sigma camera he was using. I do not recall the OP saying the camera was perfect. "Holy Grail" seems an extreme position, unless you are referring to the Monty Python movie.

You may want to note that I did not reply to the OP

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Raist3d/Ricardo (Photographer, software dev.)- I photograph black cats in coal mines at night...
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” - George Orwell

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