10D Back Focus

For all who doubt 10D's have focus problems here is a photo to view. Since I dont have all of the fancy technical equipment that Canon has I set up a very simple focus test.

The image was shot with the 10D mounted on a tripod and at 45 degrees. I used a Canon f4L lens. The center of the picture is immediately to the left of the tip of the pen. I used the center focal point of the camera only.

The pityful thing about this image is that I just got my camera back from the Canon New Jersey repair facility. This picture represents the degree of quality and customer service that Canon is building into their product. The bottom line is there is no excuse on Canon's part for selling a $1500 camera body that wont focus, especially after it undergoes warranty repair at their own facility.

http://www.pbase.com/image/16753690

I hate to say this but I don't see a problem with your picture and the AF. You said you used a f4L lens but didn't say what the focal length was or how close you were to the subject. If this picture is the actual size and not cropped, the tip of the pen looks good compared to the rest of the focus. Remember that if you don't use a macro lens for close-ups the standard lens doesn't have the "flat field" lens design the macro has. In otherwords, if you shoot a newspaper with a 50mm prime lens on a copy stand, you will have a difference in focus from the center to the outside edges. A 50mm macro used the same way will have better center to edge focus. Another thing, at the 45 degree angle, AF sensor will have a slanted target with the bottom of the sensor looking at something closer than the top of the sensor.

I have been doing photography for well over 20 years and have used all kinds of focusing systems (split image, micro prism etc). Mostly I do weddings but I have done my share of macro photography also. What is called the "circle of confusion" is present in all optical systems and is more noticable in small format cameras than large format cameras. That and film grain were the factors I had to deal with over the years. Hence, the 6x7 and 6x6 cameras were used for weddings and portraits. The new Kodak Portra films are a vast improvement over the CPS and VPS of the past as far as grain but the CoC is still a factor. Yes, the 10D CoC will be more noticable on the image sensor due to the smaller than 35mm format. Use the depth of field of the lens to minimize this.

I did the ruler test with my 10D, 50mm f1.8 lens and I was within 1/2 inch of the target at about 28 inches. My 28-70 f2.8L lens at 50mm was the same. Using flash (with the AF assist triggered) I got within 1/4 of an inch. When I tried manual focus (and my eyes are not as good as they once were) rocking back and forth with the focus until I got what I thought was perfect focus, I ended up 2 inches off. I think we have to work within the limitations of the equipment and the 10D is not perfect but a vast improvement. Also, you can calabrate for a ruler test but I am sure all of your shots arn't going to be of rulers.

I would suggest using P mode or Av mode and selecting an aperature at least 2 stops above your maximum f stop. Good luck and I hope this helps.

Dan said:

For all who doubt 10D's have focus problems here is a photo to
view. Since I dont have all of the fancy technical equipment that
Canon has I set up a very simple focus test.

The image was shot with the 10D mounted on a tripod and at 45
degrees. I used a Canon f4L lens. The center of the picture is
immediately to the left of the tip of the pen. I used the center
focal point of the camera only.

The pityful thing about this image is that I just got my camera
back from the Canon New Jersey repair facility. This picture
represents the degree of quality and customer service that Canon is
building into their product. The bottom line is there is no excuse
on Canon's part for selling a $1500 camera body that wont focus,
especially after it undergoes warranty repair at their own facility.

http://www.pbase.com/image/16753690

Click to expand...

My knees are still recuperating -

Here's a good place to look:

http://www.photo.net/learn/focustest/

Ben Strasser said:

Dan said:

For all who doubt 10D's have focus problems here is a photo to
view. Since I dont have all of the fancy technical equipment that
Canon has I set up a very simple focus test.

The image was shot with the 10D mounted on a tripod and at 45
degrees. I used a Canon f4L lens. The center of the picture is
immediately to the left of the tip of the pen. I used the center
focal point of the camera only.

The pityful thing about this image is that I just got my camera
back from the Canon New Jersey repair facility. This picture
represents the degree of quality and customer service that Canon is
building into their product. The bottom line is there is no excuse
on Canon's part for selling a $1500 camera body that wont focus,
especially after it undergoes warranty repair at their own facility.

http://www.pbase.com/image/16753690

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Dan said:

The bottom line is there is no excuse
on Canon's part for selling a $1500 camera body that wont focus,
especially after it undergoes warranty repair at their own facility.

Click to expand...

What do u think about the 1Ds frontfocussing problems then?
Its not a $1500 camera body...

Ive had my 1Ds "repaired" with no success.. its at Canon right now for the second time .. hopefully they WILL get it OK.

Dan said:

For all who doubt 10D's have focus problems here is a photo to
view. Since I dont have all of the fancy technical equipment that
Canon has I set up a very simple focus test.

Click to expand...

I can count the number of twists in the yarn that makes up the fringe that lines up with the pen. I can assure you that I would never be able to do that with the naked eye.

Exactly what is it that you are looking for in this particular test that does not satisfy you?

Olga

Ben Strasser said:

Dan said:

For all who doubt 10D's have focus problems here is a photo to
view. Since I dont have all of the fancy technical equipment that
Canon has I set up a very simple focus test.

The image was shot with the 10D mounted on a tripod and at 45
degrees. I used a Canon f4L lens. The center of the picture is
immediately to the left of the tip of the pen. I used the center
focal point of the camera only.

The pityful thing about this image is that I just got my camera
back from the Canon New Jersey repair facility. This picture
represents the degree of quality and customer service that Canon is
building into their product. The bottom line is there is no excuse
on Canon's part for selling a $1500 camera body that wont focus,
especially after it undergoes warranty repair at their own facility.

http://www.pbase.com/image/16753690

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
Go ahead, never look back

Dan,

Perhaps a link to a full-size original would help us understand your perception of what is wrong with this photo.

In this small size, there just isn't enough detail.

Gary

Isn't the focus area supposed to be 1/3 in front of and 2/3 behind the focal point? It looks just about perfect to me.

-- Greg

Dan said:

For all who doubt 10D's have focus problems here is a photo to
view. Since I dont have all of the fancy technical equipment that
Canon has I set up a very simple focus test.

The image was shot with the 10D mounted on a tripod and at 45
degrees. I used a Canon f4L lens. The center of the picture is
immediately to the left of the tip of the pen. I used the center
focal point of the camera only.

The pityful thing about this image is that I just got my camera
back from the Canon New Jersey repair facility. This picture
represents the degree of quality and customer service that Canon is
building into their product. The bottom line is there is no excuse
on Canon's part for selling a $1500 camera body that wont focus,
especially after it undergoes warranty repair at their own facility.

http://www.pbase.com/image/16753690

Click to expand...

Having difficulty seeing the problem. Looks ok to me with the shot provided.

Bob

Dan,

The problem is, you are using a Bic pen. The 10D wont respect anything less than a Paper-Mate.

Dan said:

For all who doubt 10D's have focus problems here is a photo to
view. Since I dont have all of the fancy technical equipment that
Canon has I set up a very simple focus test.

The image was shot with the 10D mounted on a tripod and at 45
degrees. I used a Canon f4L lens. The center of the picture is
immediately to the left of the tip of the pen. I used the center
focal point of the camera only.

The pityful thing about this image is that I just got my camera
back from the Canon New Jersey repair facility. This picture
represents the degree of quality and customer service that Canon is
building into their product. The bottom line is there is no excuse
on Canon's part for selling a $1500 camera body that wont focus,
especially after it undergoes warranty repair at their own facility.

http://www.pbase.com/image/16753690

Click to expand...

And, you need a cat in the photo!!!!!!!!!

Dan,

Image looks properly focused to me.

A recommendation, start taking photos and analyzing results instead of trying to prove it won't focus. You'll be a lot happier. If you're totally convinced the camera is a useless peice of junk, just donate it to the "Andy Needs a 10D Charity Fund". Or, send it to me to check. I'll put a good couple hundred thousand shots on the camera and report back to you.

Andy

Allen-W said:

The problem is, you are using a Bic pen. The 10D wont respect
anything less than a Paper-Mate.

Dan said:

For all who doubt 10D's have focus problems here is a photo to
view. Since I dont have all of the fancy technical equipment that
Canon has I set up a very simple focus test.

The image was shot with the 10D mounted on a tripod and at 45
degrees. I used a Canon f4L lens. The center of the picture is
immediately to the left of the tip of the pen. I used the center
focal point of the camera only.

The pityful thing about this image is that I just got my camera
back from the Canon New Jersey repair facility. This picture
represents the degree of quality and customer service that Canon is
building into their product. The bottom line is there is no excuse
on Canon's part for selling a $1500 camera body that wont focus,
especially after it undergoes warranty repair at their own facility.

http://www.pbase.com/image/16753690

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Here is a link to the full size picture. For those who are optically challenged I drew a small red square showing the location of the focus sensor when the shutter was depressed. The larger red circle illustrates the area in focus or what I believe to be the depth of field.

I believe Ben has been engaged in photography for over twenty years and had some concern regarding the technical aspects of the photo. I encourage Ben to install a good photo viewer and read the EXIF data.

For those in general who question whether Canon can make, subsequently service and return to the customer a camera that back focuses please keep in mind the focal plane is at 45 degrees to the tip of the pen. Therefore, the area in focus is behind the focal plane. It is blatanly apparent that nothing in front of the focal plane is in focus. Therefore, the canon returned a camera that back focuses.

I do wish to thank the poster who provided the link to the focus test information and chart. I printed the chart and shall now do test in a more controlled manner although the test I posted is not so unreliable.

http://www.pbase.com/image/16767489

It would be interesting to see the "real" size of the focus square. If we saw the full size of the square, would the center of focus be within that square? Is there any guarantee that it will be at the center of the square? With that much going on in the square (all the contrasty pieces of yarn) I would think not. Is it possible that it really did lock focus on something in the square, just not what you thought it should?

Howie

Dan said:

Here is a link to the full size picture. For those who are
optically challenged I drew a small red square showing the location
of the focus sensor when the shutter was depressed. The larger red
circle illustrates the area in focus or what I believe to be the
depth of field.

I believe Ben has been engaged in photography for over twenty years
and had some concern regarding the technical aspects of the photo.
I encourage Ben to install a good photo viewer and read the EXIF
data.

For those in general who question whether Canon can make,
subsequently service and return to the customer a camera that back
focuses please keep in mind the focal plane is at 45 degrees to the
tip of the pen. Therefore, the area in focus is behind the focal
plane. It is blatanly apparent that nothing in front of the focal
plane is in focus. Therefore, the canon returned a camera that back
focuses.

I do wish to thank the poster who provided the link to the focus
test information and chart. I printed the chart and shall now do
test in a more controlled manner although the test I posted is not
so unreliable.

http://www.pbase.com/image/16767489

Click to expand...

The camera was on a tripod and the sensor locked focus. I shot numerous other pictures including brick walls in bright sunlight and got the same back focusing problem.

From the replies I see to this thread it looks like with respect to Canon cameras a picture is not worth a thousand words and that I find to be very dissappointing. I would hope that Canon can produce a product that doesn't cause so much controversy.

HowieB said:

Howie

Dan said:

Here is a link to the full size picture. For those who are
optically challenged I drew a small red square showing the location
of the focus sensor when the shutter was depressed. The larger red
circle illustrates the area in focus or what I believe to be the
depth of field.

I believe Ben has been engaged in photography for over twenty years
and had some concern regarding the technical aspects of the photo.
I encourage Ben to install a good photo viewer and read the EXIF
data.

For those in general who question whether Canon can make,
subsequently service and return to the customer a camera that back
focuses please keep in mind the focal plane is at 45 degrees to the
tip of the pen. Therefore, the area in focus is behind the focal
plane. It is blatanly apparent that nothing in front of the focal
plane is in focus. Therefore, the canon returned a camera that back
focuses.

I do wish to thank the poster who provided the link to the focus
test information and chart. I printed the chart and shall now do
test in a more controlled manner although the test I posted is not
so unreliable.

http://www.pbase.com/image/16767489

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I really don't know why you follow EVERY thread about 10D focus like you do and complain so much about a camera you don't even own. But your participation in this forum is totally limited to this sort of thread. Do you actually have a camera and, if so, do you actually USE it? Just curious.

I think some of the issues with your image are simply a function of the ambiguity of a few of the methods you used. For example, the pen tip wouldn't be in focus because the tip is above the floor. Because of that, at 45 degrees angle to the floor, it's not obvious where the tip focus should be relative to the threads on the yarn. So I think that's part of the confusion.

I did have a front-focus issue that was much more severe than this, and the NJ facility DID in fact fix it correctly on my camera. Here's what I'm wondering. Your camera's focus issue is not too severe, I think (at least in this image - but I believe your statements about other images). If there's still an issue, maybe your lens needs adjustment as well. I know it's a pain, and VERY frustrating, but maybe you should send in both.

Just out of curiosity, do you have other lenses that show the same problem? On my camera, the problem only showed up on very open-lenses (my 50mm 1.8 was TERRIBLE - and I tried a new one and it was just as bad). Just curious, so you could separate a camera problem from a lens problem.

Dan said:

From the replies I see to this thread it looks like with respect to
Canon cameras a picture is not worth a thousand words and that I
find to be very dissappointing. I would hope that Canon can produce
a product that doesn't cause so much controversy.

HowieB said:

Howie

Dan said:

Here is a link to the full size picture. For those who are
optically challenged I drew a small red square showing the location
of the focus sensor when the shutter was depressed. The larger red
circle illustrates the area in focus or what I believe to be the
depth of field.

I believe Ben has been engaged in photography for over twenty years
and had some concern regarding the technical aspects of the photo.
I encourage Ben to install a good photo viewer and read the EXIF
data.

For those in general who question whether Canon can make,
subsequently service and return to the customer a camera that back
focuses please keep in mind the focal plane is at 45 degrees to the
tip of the pen. Therefore, the area in focus is behind the focal
plane. It is blatanly apparent that nothing in front of the focal
plane is in focus. Therefore, the canon returned a camera that back
focuses.

I do wish to thank the poster who provided the link to the focus
test information and chart. I printed the chart and shall now do
test in a more controlled manner although the test I posted is not
so unreliable.

http://www.pbase.com/image/16767489

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
http://www.pbase.com/stevegrillo , Equipment on profile page

Dan said:

The camera was on a tripod and the sensor locked focus. I shot
numerous other pictures including brick walls in bright sunlight
and got the same back focusing problem.

From the replies I see to this thread it looks like with respect to
Canon cameras a picture is not worth a thousand words and that I
find to be very dissappointing. I would hope that Canon can produce
a product that doesn't cause so much controversy.

Click to expand...

First of all, I wonder why you focused on the fabric and not the pen? The pen would've provided a better target. You DO know that the little squares don't show EXACTLY where the focus is being read, don't you? And were you right up to the minimum focus distance of the lens? Maybe you were a tad too close? Try backing off a little. How about showing some non-testing photos? And if nothing else works for you, return it or sell it and get another brand. I only ask that you torture test it the same way you've done the 10D.

Hi Dan,

Some comments.

First, not a full size image. It's only 65K. Also, with your editing, the EXIF info is missing. If that is the full size, try shooting at the highest jpg setting. The image size should be well over 1mb.

Question: If you're trying to focus on the tip of the pen, why did you use the carpet beside it?

While the red square is displayed, the focus area is actually somewhat larger than that, and with the same texture in the carpet, exactly what the focus point is could be somewhat subjective and can vary. AF is not an exact science, has variations and tolerances, and can be fooled.

Do you also see this happening in real shots? Have any examples?

But in all honesty, 2 things. I think the image is reasonably sharp throughout the pen, and the floor in front of and behind it. But without a high resolution image, and more specs, it's hard to tell. Second, if you're going to do close in detail work, you are going to be better off with manual focus and tripod. My main camera is the 1D, and even though it's focusing is totally amazing, for close work I manual focus. If your test shot was a commercial image I was shooting, the lens would be in MF before I ever started.

Unless you are seeing problems in real world shots, I again say that you need to just use and enjoy the camera, rather than proving that it can't focus!

As I've said on several occasions . . .. . Enjoy the Toy!!!!

Andy

Dan said:

Here is a link to the full size picture. For those who are
optically challenged I drew a small red square showing the location
of the focus sensor when the shutter was depressed. The larger red
circle illustrates the area in focus or what I believe to be the
depth of field.

I believe Ben has been engaged in photography for over twenty years
and had some concern regarding the technical aspects of the photo.
I encourage Ben to install a good photo viewer and read the EXIF
data.

For those in general who question whether Canon can make,
subsequently service and return to the customer a camera that back
focuses please keep in mind the focal plane is at 45 degrees to the
tip of the pen. Therefore, the area in focus is behind the focal
plane. It is blatanly apparent that nothing in front of the focal
plane is in focus. Therefore, the canon returned a camera that back
focuses.

I do wish to thank the poster who provided the link to the focus
test information and chart. I printed the chart and shall now do
test in a more controlled manner although the test I posted is not
so unreliable.

http://www.pbase.com/image/16767489

Click to expand...

You have to click on "original" to download it however.

--
http://www.pbase.com/stevegrillo , Equipment on profile page

OK, back up to speed with what Original means. I think I need another cup

It's still not the true original with the drawing in it, so there's more jpg artifacts and image loss, but still enough to analyze.

We are still looking at a poor choice of focusing points, and also not sure of exactly what the focus was selected on. The area within the red box does not contain good contrast to give the camera a difinitive point to determine the focus point, so the results are arbitrary and invalid.

But, looking at the image as an 8x10 print, the entire area in discussion will be in focus and marvelously sharp. With some USM, the same can be said of an 11x14 or perhaps larger. The full image is a 42 inch print, or roughly a 30x40. Do you think your film can withstand this level of scruitany on a print that large? nah, the grain would keep you from seeing it . . . after spending a fortune on the print.

Not convinced at all by this photo.

Andy

SteveDude said:

You have to click on "original" to download it however.

--
http://www.pbase.com/stevegrillo , Equipment on profile page

Click to expand...