Switzerland already more European than the UK?

Started Mar 26, 2013 | Discussions thread
papillon_65
papillon_65 Forum Pro • Posts: 27,030
Re: Sorry Robert....

57even wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

57even wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

57even wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

RobertSigmund wrote:

the CAP

pardon: what is CAP?

is nothing short of a French tax on the rest of the EU and it should go.

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For the person who is good with a hammer, everything in life tends to look like a nail.....
Tony
http://the-random-photographer.blogspot.com/

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Doctors are bad for your lifestyle.

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For the person who is good with a hammer, everything in life tends to look like a nail.....
Tony
http://the-random-photographer.blogspot.com/

but the minuscule amount of credibility you might have had disappeared when I realised a german was lecturing me on international co-operation and good relations. You might have forgotten the events of the 20th Century, and your country may well be taking advantage of the chaos they caused, but don't for one minute think that everyone has forgotten. Fortunately you can't erase history and if you actually understood anything about history you'd understand that's where all the  important lessons are. One important lesson is to beware any treaties or agreements written by Germans because history tells that generally they aren't worth the paper they're written on.

I think you should stop living in the past. The world moved on and you obviously have not.

If you want to know about "dishonourable agreements" and invasion of foreign countries, I suggest you look very hard at the history of British colonialism. Take a LONG look at the slave trade, Cecil Rhodes, the East India Company and the Opium Wars as a starter for 10, then look at what we did to the Tasmanian Aborigines and our renaging of all the deals we had with the occupants of Egypt and Palestine after WW1 ... I could go on but hypocrisy doesn't need more than a few examples to prove a point.

Thats all well and good but when I start taking lessons on diplomacy from a German will be the day hell freezes over. You may well be another left wing apologist hell bent on making the British people feel guilty for breathing but we've had enough of that in the last 15 years thanks.

One: I'm not a left winger, I run a business. Like most non-financial based businesses it depends a lot on the EU. I have had to deal with the US as well, and I would frankly trust our EU partners  more.

I never doubted you had an interest for one minute.

And what's your interest? Mine at least is based on experience and pragmatism. Your;s seems to be based on some irrational prejudice, but certainly not your interests or anyone elses.

Two: I don't think we should live in the past, but you can't blame Germans for their past, and excuse us for ours in the same breath. Personally I think you cannot hold a new generation to account for the actions of it's ancestors, but it's YOU who keep ranting on about Germans for what they did in 1939.

It's not a rant, it's a rather important point of order in the context of what was said. People have a nasty habit of trying to re-write history or ignoring it, unfortunately that often results in it repeating itself.

So why not apply the same argument to the British?

As for German diplomacy, I would rather have Angela Merkel as a leader than any of the limp wristed idiots we have had in charge for the last 20 years. Even the Poles, Czecks and Slovaks have benefited from "German Diplomacy" to their mutual benefit over the last 20 years.

Im not sure about Merkel but I agree about our governments in the last 20 years, truly abysmal.

So I say again, you want sovereignty? For our daft judges and incompetent ministers?

And if you don't like Merkel or Kohl, look where Germany has come in 35 years (despite having to cope with the economic revival of East Germany and helping a lot of other post-communist states in the process). Compare with the UK. Point made.

We just went into Iraq as Bush's poodle. Do you think we have ANY diplomatic credibility left anywhere? We lost it in the Middle East, India, China and now Europe. Genius. Even Latin America barely knows we exist.

I'm not sure international credibility is even so important now, as someone who has served all over the place I'd be quite happy to adopt a low key stance and abandon any ideas of self aggrandisement anymore.

It's nothing to do with being "important" it's to do with trade - the basic currency of economic survival. The EU is important, and as one of the biggest economies in the EU, we can benefit directly from the EU's improving links with China and South America. Going it alone won't get us anywhere - who is going to take us seriously? Do people build factories in the UK to sell to UK customers only (answer, no of course not).

We became rich on the back of an Empire. Those days are gone, thankfully, but the point remains that scale is important. Small countries cannot compete on their own any more. Gone are the days when technology was simple and you could make everything yourself.

China and America will deal with their economic peers. That means the EU, not us.

I think we can trade with who we like, I don't buy the Europe or bust argument personally but we can agree to disagree.

I don't care whether you buy it or not, in all important economic sectors it's critical.

Get over it, it's the new world - you can be part of something that matters or disappear off the map. Take your pick.

Well we'll always be part of it one way or another. My real objection is the way that the British people have been consistently lied to by successive governments. Give us our referendum and I'll accept the result whatever it is. Until that happens I refuse to recognise any European Federal state on the basis of its undemocratic existence.

What Federal State? Stop reading the Tory press for gods sake. There is a case for an economic pan-european agreement, AND closer political integration for those that need/desire it. But the harmonisation of Euro laws is many cases is a good thing, and certainly no worse than what it replaces - like those silly French yellow headlights.

All European states retain their own government, taxation and legal systems. The only harmonisation is in relation to trade, the human rights constitution (would you rather have our stupid libel laws and ambulance chasers ?) and attempts at banking regulation that would (ironically) have prevented the crash.

But is it surprising that so many rich financial nobs are whining about it (and funding UKIP) when it's their bonuses on the line. Or do you believe all that "attracting talent" nonsense.

Our grandfathers and great grandfathers fought for democracy in Europe and many made the ultimate sacrifice. I'm not about to besmirch their names by accepting a backdoor totalitarian Federal Europe just because some conniving politicians think its a great idea. Get it out in the open and lets have a referendum. No more lies and deceit because we all know where this is going.

What EXACTLY have you been lied to about, pray tell? Give me some examples.

And what exactly should we vote on, since we never entered the Euro? Should we have voted against the EU's fine against Microsoft? We hardly even VOTE for our MEP's so we can hardly complain if they don't represent us.

I'm not campaigning to create a European superstate, but I have no heard anyone suggest that.

I do want to maintain a harmonised European trading block and defence agreement and you can't administer that by committee. I suspect 10 other European countries would probably like that as well, and few others probably wish in hindsight that they had never joined.

But lets be clear here, OUR banks were part of the problem. In fact a very large part of it.

And the lies are mainly coming from the press.

I don't disagree with some of what you say but perhaps you can tell me why successive governments have fought tooth and nail to avoid any kind of referendum? That smacks of some kind of agenda to me.

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For the person who is good with a hammer, everything in life tends to look like a nail.....
Tony
http://the-random-photographer.blogspot.com/

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