"C&C welcome" means "praise me or else"?

Rational

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This posting will likely rub a lot of readers the wrong way, but so be it because it deals with the essence of the "C&C welcome" titles in many postings.

1. First of all anyone who takes photos not for profit does so to please oneself. Others' comments are irrelevant, unless one is fishing for compliments. So why bother asking for C&C? The argument "in order to improve one's photography" goes only so far; where does it say that art (of which photography is one medium of expressing it) has to abide by this or that rule? Who cares what the high priests of photography think, and who appointed them to that position anyway?


2. If I take a photo of a loved one (a baby, a spouse, a parent), I really could care less what others think of it because the photo has evocative significance for me. Many decades from now, when I look at that baby, now 50 years old, or a photo of a parent, now deceased, I could care less about depth of field or lighting or what-not. I would care even less about others' opinions about such technicalities.

3. A photograph is not a blender not a microwave oven where objective comments would have made sense. A photograph is a personal aesthetic expression, a capture of a fleeting moment, a snapshot in time that cannot be dissociated from the circumstances around that photo. These circumstances can be a love affair (hopefully with a person and not with a camera), a person who has since passed away, an event with emotional significance to the photographer. These circumstances mean a lot to the photographer but nothing to anyone else. So, why bother to ask for "C&C" from people who don't know the circumstances?

4. Then there are the posters who are hungry for approval by strangers and who, not surprisingly, get annoyed if they get criticism instead. Again, why bother? Same goes for photographs of people where the photograph is technically OK but the person photographed is ugly. What kind of response do you want when posting such photos?


5. Then there also the majority of the photos that should have been posted in Facebook and not DPreview. Again, who cares about such photos, so why bother to post them?

6. Then, too, are the mediocre photos that are weird or shocking and consider themselves to be "art". Again, art is the mind of the beholder. Some of Picasso's "masterpieces" are, realistically, weird and would have been dismissed out of hand had they been painted by some random Joe Bloke. Instead, individuals who see the Picasso signature on them feel obligated to make sounds of admiration just so that they won't be perceived as lacking in culture and "art appreciation".




In summary, unless you are taking photos for profit and the "C&C" comments you are asking are to find what would sell better and how you can make more money, then post. I for one, won't bother to look at them for the many reasons stated above.

If you are taking photos for your own edification, then enjoy them in good health and don't ask for others' comments as they don't matter unless you are asking some technical question such as "how to I light the face..." or "how do I ...", in which case post them.

The photos that I do enjoy looking at are ones that are pleasant to look at in their own right. No C&C needed or wanted.
 
No, I think most people who post photographs for C&C are hoping for constructive criticism. I know I am.

There are those on these forums who use this as an opportunity to parade how talented they are at sneering and being boorish, but that says more about them than the person asking for feedback.
 
I couldn't agree more. I see of lot of people on here (a few in particular) who LOVE to rip apart others photos, but when they post POS "snapshots" they go completely berserk when people aren't fawning all over them. There are some very nice pictures posted here by pros that are kind of showing off (which doesn't bother me), some legitimate people who want and welcome criticism (myself) and some who post crapola and get peeved when anyone says anything about their photo that isn't "Oh that's a great picture".
 
I think most people who ask for C&C are sincere. The problem often occurs when they don't say enough about their photo objectives and leave the door open for a discussion of some minor flaw or a difference of opinion about some creative detail. For example, I've noticed some people can't abide a portrait that cuts off the top of a head -- even though that's very standard technique.

The replies will always be a reflection of the critic's knowledge, experience, artistic sense -- and courtesy. If that's taken into account, most problems can be avoided.

--

Darrell
 
Do you keep score when playing your sport with a bunch of friends? Why, if you are not a pro and aren't going to make any money doing it?

Even if you are not a pro, you want to improve your technique. People sign up for all kinds of night classes, join clubs and practice, all to improve their skills, even though they aren't interested in making money from their pursuits.

Yes, there are those who post only for praise and who get upset when criticised, but many people post their photos here for honest criticism.
 
Priscilla Messinger wrote:

Do you keep score when playing your sport with a bunch of friends? Why, if you are not a pro and aren't going to make any money doing it?

Even if you are not a pro, you want to improve your technique. People sign up for all kinds of night classes, join clubs and practice, all to improve their skills, even though they aren't interested in making money from their pursuits.

Yes, there are those who post only for praise and who get upset when criticised, but many people post their photos here for honest criticism.
 
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Rational wrote:

This posting will likely rub a lot of readers the wrong way, but so be it because it deals with the essence of the "C&C welcome" titles in many postings.

1. First of all anyone who takes photos not for profit does so to please oneself. Others' comments are irrelevant, unless one is fishing for compliments. So why bother asking for C&C? The argument "in order to improve one's photography" goes only so far; where does it say that art (of which photography is one medium of expressing it) has to abide by this or that rule? Who cares what the high priests of photography think, and who appointed them to that position anyway?
There's so many things wrong with that paragraph, I really don't feel like addressing them all. Suffice to say, you really ought to study the philosophy of art---it's far from the base hedonism you seem to believe it is.
2. If I take a photo of a loved one (a baby, a spouse, a parent), I really could care less what others think of it because the photo has evocative significance for me. Many decades from now, when I look at that baby, now 50 years old, or a photo of a parent, now deceased, I could care less about depth of field or lighting or what-not. I would care even less about others' opinions about such technicalities.
Then why show them at all? oh, and the phrase is "I couldn't care less". Normally I don't care about typos, but it does change the phrase's meaning significantly---to its exact opposite, in fact.
3. A photograph is not a blender not a microwave oven where objective comments would have made sense. A photograph is a personal aesthetic expression, a capture of a fleeting moment, a snapshot in time that cannot be dissociated from the circumstances around that photo. These circumstances can be a love affair (hopefully with a person and not with a camera), a person who has since passed away, an event with emotional significance to the photographer. These circumstances mean a lot to the photographer but nothing to anyone else. So, why bother to ask for "C&C" from people who don't know the circumstances?
Same as point #1.
4. Then there are the posters who are hungry for approval by strangers and who, not surprisingly, get annoyed if they get criticism instead. Again, why bother? Same goes for photographs of people where the photograph is technically OK but the person photographed is ugly. What kind of response do you want when posting such photos?
"I don't like your subject" is likely the single most idiotic critique one can offer, so... anything else whatsoever?
5. Then there also the majority of the photos that should have been posted in Facebook and not DPreview. Again, who cares about such photos, so why bother to post them?
Perhaps because they wish to create something that does have value as a photograph itself, and they wish for comments & critique on how to get there. You know, as in point #1?

Though I must say your view is strangely ironic given your hedonistic view of art in general.
6. Then, too, are the mediocre photos that are weird or shocking and consider themselves to be "art". Again, art is the mind of the beholder. Some of Picasso's "masterpieces" are, realistically, weird and would have been dismissed out of hand had they been painted by some random Joe Bloke. Instead, individuals who see the Picasso signature on them feel obligated to make sounds of admiration just so that they won't be perceived as lacking in culture and "art appreciation".
"Mediocre"? now we jump from "strangely ironic" to "shamelessly hypocritical". Do try to refine your views on art and its rules before you post any further---preferably after reading a book on its philosophy, at the very least.
In summary, unless you are taking photos for profit and the "C&C" comments you are asking are to find what would sell better and how you can make more money, then post. I for one, won't bother to look at them for the many reasons stated above.

If you are taking photos for your own edification, then enjoy them in good health and don't ask for others' comments as they don't matter unless you are asking some technical question such as "how to I light the face..." or "how do I ...", in which case post them.

The photos that I do enjoy looking at are ones that are pleasant to look at in their own right. No C&C needed or wanted.
You know, I would've respected your opinion much more if you had actually stuck to it to the end.
 
Hmm I disagree with some, agree with other parts.

I think people should be able to post for C+C whether or not they're a pro. Some people "don't care" what people think of their photos as they mean something personal, which is perfectly fine, but some like me would like detailed crit as I want to get better even though Im not a pro, and I don't mind receiving crit even if it is personal.

I do agree that people shouldn't post "c&c welcome" if they expect to be praised. To some extent Id say people should even expect that not all the critisicm will be constructive...I mean it is a forum, you do not necessarily know what others will say, so you have to take the good with the bad sometimes, and you can always just ignore advice you feel will genuinly not help you. Sometimes people are going to see things which might not be obvious to you at the time, so unless someone is just plain rude, then I see no reason to engage in verbals...or typed wars more like. EDIT: Of course explaining yourself and asking questions on feedback is good lol.
 
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For someone who is so repulsed by c & c posts, you certainly have an encyclopedic knowledge of them. There is so much variety of content on this forum and throughout the internet, just move on to something that suits you better.
 
When I respond to images I usually comment from two viewpoints, either things that can be done to bring it more in line with "established" guidelines for most popular portraiture, or else based on what I would personally like to see different about the image, and I clearly define between the two. The poster can take it or leave it as they choose.

I rarely tell someone their picture is good, but at the same time, I rarely bother responding to images that don't have some level of technical and aesthetic merit.

As for the comments of others, or a poster's responses, it is pretty obvious the individuals that are being legitimate in trying to understand other's viewpoints vs who is being disingenuous. Such is the internet.

-Suntan
 
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I like answering to topics asking for CC. I find them a good exercise. Because after a shoot, we all go through all the pictures and do our own "CC". So I answer mainly for my own sake.

But I do find frustrating the communication issues. Not everyone is at the same point in their photographic development, and not everyone has the same goals.
 
WOW, some sweeping statements from Rational but I have to ask where the rational comes from in this post. I would like to know what qualifications you have to make the comments that you do.

In posting the comments you have I have no doubt you expected some c&c yourself, not on any photograph but on your words and oppinions so here's my tuppence worth.

I am an amature who wants to improve, I love taking photographs for various reasons and I am really pleased when a get a shot that works. The problem is that as I continue to improve, my own self critique kicks in and I always think I could have done better but not sure where, if that makes sense. My family and friends love my shots warts and all but none are into photography to such an extent that they would feel capable of critique and even if they did, because they are family and friends I feel they would hold back so not to upset. I began to post on DPR to get feedback on my images to help me improve, mainly on the landscape and travel forum. I liked the look of a lot of my images that had a vignette effect but from the feedback I got I looked and thought again and realised that I was overdoing it just because I liked it. I was using it in images that did not benefit from it and now after critique given I feel that my presentation is improving. This is why I think most people post the images, you may be right in your oppinions for some but I do not think so for the vast majority.

You say it is alright for professionals to ask for c&c in order to improve so that they can make more profit, I say it is alright for amatures to ask for c&c so that they can gain greater satisfaction from the shots they take, it's really the same thing.

Photography is subjective and these forums are a way of like minded people enjoying each others participation, it does not have to be debased by such a negative input. We are all entitled to our oppinions, who can say who is right or wrong in such a subjective hobby, other peoples oppinions can be invaluable however if those oppinions are put in such a negative format it may have the result of driving people away. Those same people may be the ones, who with the right input, who will provide the greatest images for the future.

These forums are geared up predominantly for amatures who want to improve and through the use of c&c they work as they should. As for those who do post fishing for compliments, what's wrong with that, everyone likes a pat on the back from their peers every now and again, if you've taken a shot and you're proud of it, show it. If people want to c&c then they will if not then they don't have to, there is nothing wrong in asking for oppinions.

Bill.
 
When someone critiques your work, they are telling you how they would have done it.



I once heard this. "If you do what everyone else does, then there's nothing unique about your work."



Here on DPReview, I've seen many great images posted with the poster saying simply "enjoy". This usually followed by about a half a dozen of the "self appointed" forum critics offereing their opinions about what they think should have been done.



With exceptions, I find that the people who appear to be most critical of others work, never seem to post any images of their own or have galleries here on DPR.



So, basically, I agree with you.



'55
 
Wow, looks like we have a fire storm here.

Most people can't handle a real critique. It starts an argument and they take it personal.

My teachers early on, my editors, designers, managers and vice presidents always have a comment.

You have to trust your gut and listen to your head. And 99% of the time I'm right.

When I post a comment I am honest. Nothing personal towards the photographer at all. Just being honest about an image. Most people are too soft on positive comments as well. Besides saying "amazing shot of your backyard or dog" say something related to the technique or method like, "why didn't you shoot wide open to blur the background or I noticed you used fill flash". An amazing shot should still provoke a comment about the photographers' objective. Which I find a lot more interesting than "A very nice photograph"

Just my 2cents







--

thanks,
Apice
E.P.T.A.S.
 
racinsince55 wrote:

I once heard this. "If you do what everyone else does, then there's nothing unique about your work."



You seem to be making the argument that, to be any good, your pictures must be entirely unique from everyone else's.




I don't agree with that.




There is a time and place for uniqueness just as their is a time and place for traditional techniques. There are reasons why certain techniques and methods have been popular for hundreds of years.




-Suntan
 
I can't respond to the initial poster as I vehemently disagree with his entire premise. I'm an amateur and don't know what I don't know. I post a pic now and then to find out what I don't know. I want honest critique and look forward to it. However, some of what I see here is somewhat rude/mean spirited. There is a large difference between the following:

"If you use a fill flash it will light the shadows and be more striking"

and

"Image is dark, looks horrible."

When I am looking for critique I am not asking if you like the pic, I'm asking how it can be better. I won't turn down a compliment but I'm very sure I have never taken a pic that can't be improved on. On the flip side, I am human and there for might feel a moment of pique when someone just says "These are snapshots and belong only on Facebook" While it may be true, it doesn't help me or anyone else reading along who is hoping for constructive criticism. The keyword is constructive.

Just my $.02
 
ConanLloyd wrote:

However, some of what I see here is somewhat rude/mean spirited. There is a large difference between the following:

"If you use a fill flash it will light the shadows and be more striking"

and

"Image is dark, looks horrible."
 
Well said. Bullocks to the nay-sayers and good luck with your craft
 

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