Wayne Lapeirre is against 100% background checks on gun sales.

Started Jan 31, 2013 | Discussions thread
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vadimraskin Veteran Member • Posts: 3,596
Re: Utopias don't work, unfortunately but true

Airless wrote:

vadimraskin wrote:

Airless wrote:

Sorry I posted before I was finished with the last point. Anarcho-capitalist ideas have been around at least 100 years and arguably much longer, since the 1600s when John Locke proposed that man has the natural rights to life, liberty, and property. One of my favorite thinkers is an American economist named Murray Rothbard who was involved in Libertarian politics in the 70s and 80s. I just finished reading his book "For A New Liberty: A Libertarian Manifesto" and although it is about 35 years old, it is still very poignant to current issues and offers a fairly comprehensive justification and explanation for a stateless society.

What you are thinking is a pure utopia as good as it sounds. There are too many real life complications with running a stateless society with millions of people in it. Too many personalities and too many ideas that would eventually make this society self-implode. Voluntary tax system based on the good sense and free will of people? Hmmmm....

DRO? Who would appoint the members and who would ensure that their decisions are actually carried forward? What happens to those who got sick before they have accumulated enough money to survive after leaving work force?

As demonstrated by the Socialistic countries (USSR being the largest one), any society eventually regresses to the oppressive one to regulate members and survive.

I wouldn't bank on USA becoming something of this utopian society any time soon. Definitely not worth fighting the state for it.

But the ideas never die, do they?

DROs would be private businesses, their boards would hire people to run the business and if those people did a poor job then customers would leave and choose a different DRO.

People will still have the option to purchase health insurance and any other kind of insurance for which there is enough interest that insurance companies will offer it. For people who are incapable of caring for themselves, there will still be charitable organizations to care for them. Now you might say that if there was no welfare or medicare or other government programs for very poor or sick people, then nobody would pay for them voluntarily. But I think they would because most people do have a desire to help those less fortunate, that's why these programs exist in the first place. If nobody wanted medicare, then it wouldn't exist because no politician who supported it would ever get elected. The problem is that right now a few state oligarchs force everyone to spend a specific amount on it, rather than letting the market decide how to address these concerns.

Health insurances, DRO, charitable organizations and other institutions tend to grow, fight between each other and will, with time, merge into the same oppressive system as you are going against now. People can never have enough money. That is the bottom line of all problems.

The USSR is an example of why a violent overthrow of an oppressive government cannot produce lasting anarchy. They overthrew the rules of the state, but the state apparatus was still intact, that is the state power structure, the army, the nationalism, etc. So all that really happened was that some new aspiring rulers took the place of the old ones and the whole notion of communism was a sham to give power to the ruling elites. The only way in my opinion to truly end statism is to dissolve the state from within, one agency at a time, one power at a time, playing by the state's own rigged rules. Whittle away state power a little at a time and let the market adjust to the increasing freedoms as they come, and then liberty will have a much better chance of keeping hold.

OK, I will buy this for a minute. Which Agency of the state would you start with one at the time? IRS? Police? Human Services?

Also I would not call a free society a utopia. IHuman beings aren't perfect creatures, there would still be some violence, some coercion, some sick people who don't get cared for, some people who want jobs but can't get them. But when compared with living under state rule, these problems will be much less and a free society will allow for the most development and prosperity for all. The only people who would be worse off in a statist society are the ruling elite and the few in big business who collude with them for unfair privileges and power at everyone else's expense.

If you study history, which I am sure you do, you will see that every society has classes, no mater how complex or primitive this society is. This is a human nature. As long as there are classes, the upper class will want to oppress the lower class and the lower class will hate the upper class. The middle class gets poked from either side. I don't think your free society will be free from the class warfare either.

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