new sensor ?

Started Jan 18, 2013 | Discussions thread
Joseph S Wisniewski Forum Pro • Posts: 34,130
Depends on how you define "any"...

brianj wrote:

Guido FORRIER wrote:

well this person is also looking at the sigma folks :

not many sony members seems to be interested in an other sensor approach .

i did have an sigma SD14 and the camera with his only 5mb produced photo's witg more fine detail than a 12mb bayer camera .

i went to sony 24mb = more detail than 12mb ; and besides the detail the sony A900 was and is a much better camera than the sigma's .

with a Sony forum member , who also has a DP2M sigma camera i did some experiments to see how the Sony A900:Sony NEX 7 could out resolve the sigma : no way !

it is not because here on this forum there are not much people who know the foveon that SONY must work further only with the Bayer Mosaic . If sony can make a 3 layer sensor , without the foveon problems , they can sell a lot of sensors to .....

no problem i wil be quiet .


I don't think there is any doubt that the foveron has more detail than the bayer layout.

That depends, Mr. Clinton,  entirely on how you define "any doubt". If you use some private definition that you can't explain to other English speakers, sure. If you're using definitions you'd find in a common dictionary, you're pretty much totally wrong.

If you're going to just count pixels, without any regard to how many photodiodes are stacked in each one, then the Foveon layout has an advantage. But since that requires 3x as many photodiodes, and the number of photodiodes is what determines how large and fast a processor you need, how much memory, and what sort of bandwidth that memory has (in short, every last thing that determines the cost of the camera electronics) then no, the Foveon layout does not have "more detail". It's actually rather inefficient. The current Foveon sensor in SD1, DP2M, etc. uses 45 million photodiodes to match the resolution of a 30 million photodiode Bayer (or other CFA) sensor.

The Foveon design has several strengths, but none relate to resolution. I went into detail about that, here.

Most of the strengths of the Foveon sensor (and, for that matter, virtually all stacked photodiode designs) relate to video and liveview use. The stacked photodiode sensor compromises still photographic capability to get better video. The Foveon Hasselblad pushed that to the limit. It's unfortunate that Blad's financial woes prevented more people from getting to use it. The fact that Sigma never properly exploited that video ability is a true tragedy.

I am waiting for the old bayer system which has carried us for a decade to be swept away.

Are you also waiting for the hexagonal cells that bees, wasps, and ants have used for millions of years to be swept away? How about the round wheels we've been using for millennia? Threaded screws? Extruded copper wire? Nails? Rectangular bricks?

There are some things that are simply, inarguably optimal.

Lets hope sony can perfect the foveron design.

Sony is using a different stacked photodiode design than Foveon, not attempting to "perfect the foveron design". Stacked photodiode sensors go back some 30 years: there's hundreds of papers, and over a hundred patents.

The really interesting thing isn't that Sony has some patents, it's that they have so few patents in stacked photodiodes. You figure it's a concept that shines brightest in video and liveview cameras, and Sony is so committed to those markets that they've dropped all their DSLRs to focus on liveview EVIL and SLT cameras, the stacked photodiode sensor is a natural fit.

So, what are the flaws in the concept that has Sony putting it on the back burner, with the heat turned down low?

If as much effort had gone into foveron as it did bayer over the last decade we would be in a much better position today image detail wise.

Nope. We'd either have cameras with less detail that shoot at the speeds we're used to, today, or cameras like the SD1 that are markedly slower than what we're used to now.

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Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008. Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed. Ciao! Joseph

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