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War Photographers - Let's not forget the dangers [link to PIC]

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demonstrates the level
Burke Churchill said:
of sophistication one would expect from a bathroom attendant at the
21 in NYC or a welfare queen.
Click to expand...
isn't america great...when we can look down so far on others...even in our own country.
gotta love that red white and blue.

should we remind you that it is the people like the folks you are describing in the above statement that are fighting your little war.

you really are the the perfect american. dame you.

--

'what one is working on is rarely what one thinks they are working on.' :::sort of budda
Burke Churchill said:
way
Click to expand...
 
I was trying to be civil. You have no clue what you are talking about. Do you really think this war is about the US economy? Don't you think Bush knows that the billions this war is costing will strain the economy? You are talking recycled jibberish wars of yesterday. And you haven't even addressed the truth -- the millions of people who have died because of Hussein.

Still, you haven't mentioned your idea for resolution.
 
Bakman_29 said:
We must kill to save lives
We must wage war for peace
We must use weapons of mass destruction to eliminate weapons of
mass destruction
We come in peace; we will kill the enemy
We will liberate Iraq; we will occupy Iraq
We want to protect Iraq by disarming it
We will install democracy in Iraq
We are circumventing the UN to uphold UN resolutions
The war is going as planned --it might take longer than expected
Surgical strikes kill innocents
Bin Laden is a freedom-fighter (1980s); Bin laden is a terrorist
(2001)
Saddam is a ally (during Iran-Iraq war); Saddam is an enemy (post
Iran-Iraq war)
Click to expand...
makes you wonder what the others see that helps them to support such action.
i don't get it.

--

'what one is working on is rarely what one thinks they are working on.' :::sort of budda
Bakman_29 said:
way
Click to expand...
 
I clicked on the link and read your post. I read a lot about why war wouldn't work, but nothing about should be done.
 
TomF said:
There have been clear signs of WMD. Hell, even a top Iraqi
scientist who defected gave detailed information of the WMD and the
regime's moblie labs. Other military defectors have verified this,
so have satellite photos, etc....
Click to expand...
Clear signs ???? What the h*ll are signs ?

Where is the evidence my friend ?

Show me a desert full with WMD etc., where are they, it was so convincing that a war had to be started over it...

This is what your government is fighting for, a world of peace, because those weapons can be used against us all.

I for one haven't seen a d*mn thing, neither did you.....and the rest of all humans on this planet haven't either.

So if they are not to be found, we are still at the same risk.
Or will you be calibrating that Iraqee people are "free".
 
Burke Churchill said:
Ashot says, " It is possible [peace], you can see it when you make
someone smile." Why not a little smiley face you pinheaded
parakeet male?!! That's possibly one of the most ignorant things
I've read here besides Andreas' gaseous thinking and the crackpot
ideas expressed by smoody.
Click to expand...
I think you are not understanding what I'm saying. Maybe it was unrealistic of me to think that you could get at what I wanted to say just from that. My point was much more philosophical.

Most people's argument for war is that it is the only way. We must fight to stop war. The essence of that argument is that human nature will always tend towards violence and world peace is an unrealistic goal to strive for.

This is a point which is hard to refute because humans have been slaughtering themselves ever since the first civilizations. One tends to think that we are doomed to this deadly cycle, that somehow we are inherently murderous.

As strong as this argument can be, I disagree. Partially because of small indicators that I have in my own personal life and partially because the thought itself is so depressing. I like to think that this is not the case, that there is at the base a kindness in us and it just needs to be let out. We just need to fall into the right cycle where killing is something that is inane to us as children.

We can envision a world were every child is taught that murder and killing is horrendous. I think that it is clear that in this scenario the world really could be peaceful.

And so world peace is possible, its not hopeless, and this argument for war is mute. We MUST not fight, especiously un-provoked.
 
read this:
http://forums.dpreview.com/ ... ... read.asp?forum=1019&message=4822750

I think a little oversimplified, but yes, its just the spread of capitalism.
mccance said:
Oh, well then, wonder what the problem was. Too many innocent
civilians unmamed over there maybe? Not even.

This is "the problem:"

The US economy is currently like a monopoly game when all the
properties are bought up and nobody can get anywhere.

How do we come out of all such economies: we start a war or a
destabilization program. But we only do this to small third world
countries that really can't defend themselves. (remeber the
Contras, VietNam-backfire, Nicagura, etc)

But, unfortunately, even after we obliterate that entire country of
Iraq, just to kill Saddam and his men, and we put in the people who
represent our best interests..... our economy will still STINK.

So, all these poor civilians over there will have been slaughtered
for nothing. Like there is ever a reason to justify that.

..
Bakman_29 said:
mccance said:
I have done my research. Have you done yours? So what is the answer
to Hussein? You can't just say "War is not the answer" when you
have no suggetions. How do you stop evil people from being evil?
Click to expand...
Why don't you hear anyone talking about the WMD anylonger ? Nice
coverup. Did it now become a non-issue ? Isn't this why this war
was started in the first place ? It is time that Bush is going to
show some evidence of these weapons...that evidence "might" give
you a safer future....

We must kill to save lives
We must wage war for peace
We must use weapons of mass destruction to eliminate weapons of
mass destruction
We come in peace; we will kill the enemy
We will liberate Iraq; we will occupy Iraq
We want to protect Iraq by disarming it
We will install democracy in Iraq
We are circumventing the UN to uphold UN resolutions
The war is going as planned --it might take longer than expected
Surgical strikes kill innocents
Bin Laden is a freedom-fighter (1980s); Bin laden is a terrorist
(2001)
Saddam is a ally (during Iran-Iraq war); Saddam is an enemy (post
Iran-Iraq war)
Click to expand...
--
[email protected]
http://www.50mm.net
Click to expand...
 
Its not a mystery. Its the government and media working together beautifuly as an incredibly efficient propoganda machine.

Everyone that is for the war is for it for exactly the reasons that the government wants them to be for it.
nczen said:
wmcdowell said:
We must kill to save lives
We must wage war for peace
We must use weapons of mass destruction to eliminate weapons of
mass destruction
We come in peace; we will kill the enemy
We will liberate Iraq; we will occupy Iraq
We want to protect Iraq by disarming it
We will install democracy in Iraq
We are circumventing the UN to uphold UN resolutions
The war is going as planned --it might take longer than expected
Surgical strikes kill innocents
Bin Laden is a freedom-fighter (1980s); Bin laden is a terrorist
(2001)
Saddam is a ally (during Iran-Iraq war); Saddam is an enemy (post
Iran-Iraq war)
Click to expand...
makes you wonder what the others see that helps them to support
such action.
i don't get it.

--
'what one is working on is rarely what one thinks they are working
on.' :::sort of budda
wmcdowell said:
way
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
TomF said:
I clicked on the link and read your post. I read a lot about why
war wouldn't work, but nothing about should be done.
Click to expand...
Its the harsh reality of life that people are getting slaughter RIGHT NOW in a dozen different countries.

I guess my argument is that we can't and aren't making the situation any better. Thats the reality, and its also the reality that the government understands this, it is simply a reason that they feed the public and you have to see it as such.
 
But not all people are peaceful -- nomatter what they are taught. What do you do then, when they commit atrocities?
 
TomF:

You have lived your life under a rock, my uninformed fellow American. First, it's not my job or obligation to educate you. And, I think at this point, it's probably impossible, since you have gotten this far with these blinders on.

That said, as one last stab, I'll pose these:

-where do you think these "billions of dollars" go during wartime? Answer: to US companies. This falsely stimulates the economy at the expense of the defecit (which nobody ever cares about).

-what about these past wars and past 3rd world country destabilization programs is any different from this time around? (your answer: satellite guided bombs) (real answer: nothing)

-In ONE nicely self defeating couple of sentences, you say the past is "jibberish" and say the past is the issue: "You are talking recycled jibberish wars of yesterday. And you haven't even addressed the truth -- the millions
of people who have died because of Hussein."

Tom, nothing personal, but I don't debate narrow minded, small brained, idea biggots. We're done. I suspect most others with a clear mind are also done with you on this thread as well.

Can't wait for your future thoughts on photography...
TomF said:
I was trying to be civil. You have no clue what you are talking
about. Do you really think this war is about the US economy? Don't
you think Bush knows that the billions this war is costing will
strain the economy? You are talking recycled jibberish wars of
yesterday. And you haven't even addressed the truth -- the millions
of people who have died because of Hussein.

Still, you haven't mentioned your idea for resolution.
Click to expand...
 
Ashot Petrosyan said:
We can envision a world were every child is taught that murder and
killing is horrendous. I think that it is clear that in this
scenario the world really could be peaceful.
Click to expand...
We can also envision a world where unicorns roam free and magic reigns supreme. That does not mean it is possible.

As noble as your ideals are, they are indicative of utopian naivete. Dreaming about it won't make it happen when it goes against the basically selfish and perverted nature of humanity. I wish what you envision could become reality, but the hard fact is that such a world will never exist.

Back on topic: that picture truly brings home the horror of war. It is sad that war is a necessity in this, or any, circumstance. My sympathy goes out to all innocents hurt and affected by this conflict. I don't think I could ever be a war journalist--too chicken.

-Yohan
 
TomF said:
Obviously, there are numerous opinions about the current war in
Iraq -- for, against and everything in between. Running the risk of
be flamed in what has become a very political forum (Canon DSLR,
right???), I imagine that most people would agree that the
dedicated journalist covering the war are, in many ways, heros.
They are risking (and in some cases losing) their lives to document
history. Their images, video and stories often capture the essence
of what is happening -- for better or worse.

As for the ongoing threads on the war, I personally think that
there are a lot of people posting opinions based on half-truths,
mis-information, ignorance, and naive simplistic thinking. I dont'
mean that as a slam. It is an honest observation. As a concerned
American, I have read everything I possibly can to better
understand this conflict. After months and months of research, I am
starting to understand how it this war evolved. I do not claim to
be an expert on American foriegn policy or middle eastern history.
But I think I have learned enough to know that there is no simple
reason for this war, and America is not fighting it for selfish
reasons.

All too often people protest the war screaming, "No Blood for Oil,"
or "Bush is the devil," or "Give peace a chance." Many of these
people can't even name the countries that border Iraq. Seriously.
Moreover, there are people who listen to a couple of biased talked
shows, form an opinion and then share it as gospel in online
forums. The people who really know the issues are not wasting their
time in such forums. They get turned off by emotionally charged
ignorance, and they refuse to get into the typical arguements over
tainted history.

For those with strong opinions (either way), I say take an honest
look at how you formed your opinion. Have you gathered as much
non-biased information as possible? Are you giving liberal and
conservative media sources an equal chance? Are you reviewing
international media sources as well? If you have, you will find it
much more difficult to form black and white opinions.
Click to expand...
--
http://www.pbase.com/stefanm
 
mccance,

No I haven't lived my life living under a rock. And I don't think of myslef as narrow minded. But, I guess that's your opinion. I'm not hear to take jabs at anyone. I haven't said anything derogatory about anyone -- including you. That is unless you consider the word ignorant derogatory, which I don't. At times, in certain situations, we are all ignorant.

IHere's a story. People from various cultures were living happily in what was a decent community. Then, one family began causing problem for its neighbors – not taking care of their property, stealing things from others on the block, and threatening passers by. There were even reports of child abuse.

Things got ugly when the father was caught breaking into a house across the street. He was arrested and later put on probation. Despite multiple visits by probation officers, the father and son continued to wreck havoc on their family and the neighborhood. Some were concerned about the known illegal activity going on in the house – drugs, more child abuse and weapons (a clear parole violation).

Many neighbors refused to report ongoing trouble and crimes because they feared retaliation. Others wouldn’t do anything because they simply refused to acknowledge the problem. A few neighbors actually sympathized with the father.

A couple of neighbors, former friends of the family in question, finally had enough. They began logging the incidences and kept the police informed. The father successfully hid illegal items before the police visited the home. And he made sure the children lied about there marks and bruises. This went on for two years.

Problems escalated. One night, neighbors even heard a gunshot – no one was injured during the incident. Again the police came and found nothing. The neirghborhood was turned upside-down by the growing crimes.

The concerned families knew it was only a matter of time before even more serious tragedies occurred. They rallied together and worked with the police to shed more light on the troubled family. The police and children services made numerous visits to the house, looking for evidence of violence and illegal activity. The family, which owned a police scanner, always seemed prepared for those who came to investigate. Over and over, the children were forced to give false statements regarding their bruises. The father always found a way to hide his illegal possessions. Finally, the father actually killed one of his children.

How does this relate to the war in Iraq? Well, Hussein is a brutal dictator among various countries with problems (the father in the deteriorating neighborhood). Are there other dictators who pose more of a threat to the world (our international community)? Yeah, probably. But Hussein’s issues are a bit different. It seems that some people (the neighbors looking the other way) are forgetting that Hussein invaded Kuwait 12 years ago – killing, raping and torturing along the way (stealing from and raping his neighbor). He was forced by a UN-backed coalition (our international police, children services, etc.) to retreat. He surrendered to strict UN terms. However, he never made good on his promises (breaking his probation, so to speak). In fact, he disregarded 16 UN resolutions. And during the same decade, 400,000 Iraqi children died from malnutrition (something many war protestors never seem to acknowledge). Hussein, who waged war on to nations, killing nearly 2 million people, also has a history of using chemical weapons – killing 60,000 of his own people. Yet some people are saying, “what WMDs?” like they never existed. They did, and Iraqi defectors have proved it.

Unfortunately, the UN has undergone major changes since the gulf war. European politics have heavily tainted UN voting – not in the interest of Iraq, but in their own selfish interests. Hell, France even helped Iraq build a nuclear reactor (an obvious launching pad for nuclear weapon development) in exchange for what – OIL? Whose the oil whore here? And why would Iraq, a leading oil producer, need a nuclear reactor for power? That’s like installing AC in Alaska’s state building. France, Germany and others even sold Iraq weapons banned in UN resolutions. That is a real problem and represents a much bigger issue with UN peace efforts – it’s schizophrenic. In other words, the world’s police, the UN, became corrupt. There is no one to enforce established resolutions and correct a problem that has been going on for decades. Moreover, the UN turned its back on the Iraqi people.

So, the US, GB and others stepped in to deal with a crisis situation – before more of the same happens. Do the current coalition forces want to cause death to innocent people? Hell no. But it’s like the police raiding a home of known felons, child abusers and rapists. At some point, you have to go in before more people die of starvation and brutality. We all hope that no innocent people are hurt in the crossfire. But if they do, it is because the real criminal forced the situation. The blood was already on his hands. What else is there to do when the criminal will not follow any directions or work with you? They just keep endangering the lives of others. In this case, an entire region. What else do you do? Give peace a chance. We have. Saying it over and over again makes no impact – other than racking up Hussein’s death toll.

All people are not the same. Some are good, some are bad, and others fall somewhere in the middle. Hussein is obviously evil. And some people refuse to hold him accountable for his actions. Others refuse to step in and end the atrocities. Others, in the name of some dreamed up idealist utopian existence, slam brave nations for doing the right thing. To say that the war is about boosting an economy or for oil is so wrong. Are there affects on the economy and the oil industry -- absolutley. Some help the US, some actually hurt it.
 
Burke,

crackpot ideas? i only have one regret and that is that you aren't anywhere near as intelligent as TomF when it comes to expressing...nay...having ideas. I feel sick that I wasted my time today trying to debate you when I could have been debating someone capable of an intelligent discussion on the topic....such as TomF.

Don't you have some addition, subtraction, and penmanship homework due tomorrow? You know your mommy won't give you desert until you've done your homework...now run along.

Smoody
Burke Churchill said:
Ashot says, " It is possible [peace], you can see it when you make
someone smile." Why not a little smiley face you pinheaded
parakeet male?!! That's possibly one of the most ignorant things
I've read here besides Andreas' gaseous thinking and the crackpot
ideas expressed by smoody.

And mccane's "Tell that to the kid with no arms, mom, dad or
sister, dipwadd. I'm sure he'll understand" demonstrates the level
of sophistication one would expect from a bathroom attendant at the
21 in NYC or a welfare queen.

WOW!! This forum has educated me beyond my wildest imaginings
concerning the depth of ignorance in the world. Simpleton would be
a complement to the likes of mccane, smoody, and Ashot.
Burke Churchill said:
Sure, war is hell. So what else is new? People get killed. It is
ghastly. But let's not debase the sacrifices made by this
photographer and the American and British combatants by not
acknowledging that at times war is the ONLY alternative. Unless,
that is you are a muddle-brained post-modern Nihilist that seems so
common place on the European continent.

Were it not for wars such as this more grotesque injustices would
be the order of the day. More than any of the post cold-war wars
this one will contribute to the establishment of a recognizable
gradient of power for good in the world.
Frank Krone said:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/030408/241/3qq1r.html&e=13&ncid=705

I saw this link and reflect on what is going on down in Iraq.
War is F*CKED no matter just or not. I can appreciate what people
will do to bring us a story or image. My first reaction to the
image was "Wow, thats an 1D with [insert lense]. " I totally
forgot the poor camera guy could mortally wound. Sooooo, in
reflection I guess we should all be thankful for what we have or
even don't.

Don't forget the people involved is this mess.

Just thinking out loud, sorry I could not come up with more
elequent or heartful thought...

[Yes, I argee the Regime is "bad"]
Click to expand...

--
'The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men
to do nothing.' Edmund Burke

Burke Churchill
Click to expand...

--
'The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men
to do nothing.' Edmund Burke

Burke Churchill
Click to expand...
 
Yeah, i hear you. If you don't see it, it's not there. Wonder if the 60,000 people gased by Hussein in 1986 in Halabja ever saw the WMD that killed them?

Wonder why coalition forces have found thousands of Iraqi gas masks and chemical antitodes?
 
mccance,

I'm curious about your background. How hold are you? Where you from, what do you do? What's your education? I'm not asking this out of anger of frustration. I'm just curious. This has become a very personal thread. Just want to know who I'm talking with. It'd also be nice to know who's slamming me so much. Dude, you have been pretty nasty -- not that it bugs me.
mccance said:
Stefan Schott said:
Burke Churchill said:
acknowledging that at times war is the ONLY alternative.
Click to expand...
I suggest you do some reading to broaden your incredibly narrow
horizon.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0807059099/qid=1049848838/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/002-4340861-5174420

Regards
Stefan
Click to expand...
--
[email protected]
http://www.50mm.net
Click to expand...
 
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