Pentax *ist D and EOS 10D -- Minolta killers?

erwinv said:

Add a battery grip? (I think I saw a BG20 or such mentioned with
vertical release)

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Jeremy Rosenberger said:

While this is all true, it's been true for quite some time. The
only thing that has changed is the urgency: Canon and Pentax have
turned up the heat a little.

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Jeremy Rosenberger said:

I'd love to see Minolta compete in this space; I'm certain that
they could if so inclined. It will, however, make little difference
to me personally in the next few years, as (barring any economic
windfall) I'll be shooting with my 7Hi for at least that long. I'm
sure I'll be tempted by many a DSLR in that time, but it's going to
be that long before I can justify spending at least $2000 on a
camera + lenses + other necessities.

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Petteri Sulonen said:

Got your attention, no?

Seriously, I think Minolta's going to be in real trouble, unless it
comes up with something (read: an affordable, high-quality D-SLR)
really fast.

Minolta's been very strong in the "prosumer" segment, with the D7,
D7i, and D7Hi. The D7 series has been extremely attractive to
advanced amateurs who can't justify dropping $2000+ on a camera
body, not including lenses, but want something that handles more or
less like an SLR, but preferably smaller and lighter. I love my D7i
for these reasons.

But... the clouds are gathering, and soon the storm will break.
It's already pretty clear that the EOS 10D will pull the price cap
of the mid-range D-SLR market down to ca $1500. The camera is so
good that you have to have something really exceptional to be able
to sell it for more than that price (such as a full-frame,
ultra-hi-res sensor or an environmentally sealed, pro body and
handling).

If Pentax intends to be anything other than an "also-ran," it'll
have to price the *ist D well below that. After all, while the
camera seems very good by the specs and beats the 10D in
portability at least, it can't match the build quality of the 10D's
all-metal body -- nor the attractiveness of Canon's superb lens
collection, or even the prestige of its name. So let's say the *ist
sells at $1200 or so. (This isn't even taking into account the
rumors of a "Rebel-D," which would pull down prices even more.)

I paid more than that for my D7i. (I absolutely had to get one just
when it was out, I know, dumb.) If a compact "real" D-SLR had been
available for that price at the time, I would've gone for it, with
no hesitation -- even if the D7i had been available for, say, $500.
And I think I'm not that atypical of the D7 series's "core market
segment".

This is extremely bad news for Minolta. A moderately priced,
compact D-SLR or two could eliminate their main market at a stroke.
The D7 series will be too complicated for the point-and-shooters,
and too limiting for the advanced amateurs (DoF issue, speed,
sensitivity). They'd be left with their subcompacts and compacts,
which aren't bad cameras, but have a really hard time competing
against the likes of the Digital Ixus and S50.

Where does that leave Minolta?

Where it was before: needing to deliver a high-quality, low-cost,
no-frills D-SLR now . They have the know-how: the D7 series has
proved that with the digital side, and their record on the analog
side with the Maxxums is beyond reproach. Do they have the capital
and the will? I hope so. Because six months from now may be too
late.

With last week's announcements, I think that it's extremely
unlikely that this time next year my digital flagship will be the
D7i. It will almost certainly be a compact D-SLR: maybe the *ist D,
or maybe something like it from another manufacturer.

Minolta, if you want (more of) my money, time is running out for
you. Once I do make the plunge and get a D-SLR, the lens mount will
have me married to a manufacturer. I'm hoping for the best.

Petteri
--
http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/

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Petteri Sulonen said:

Petteri Sulonen said:

If you don't mind my asking, just what is it you are shooting with
a 50mm lense? That has to be the most difficult lense to shoot
good, quality interesting photos with. Very few people can do it.
Fewer even, want to do it. I'm not questioning your choice or
abilities - I know you're good. I have one, and have used it, but
only for non-photographic work related activities that specifically
called for this type lense. You've got my interest up. What are
you doing with the 50mm, and why?

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Check out these galleries:

http://www.seittipaja.fi/lb-tyre/index.html
http://www.seittipaja.fi/budapest/index.html
http://www.seittipaja.fi/lb-nature/index.html

All of the B/W ones and a few color ones are with the 50 mm.

As to the "why," the reason I originally got into it was the
brightness and optical quality. I dislike flash photography, and
don't particularly enjoy dragging along a tripod. Therefore,
anything that helps me shoot hand-held in different lighting
conditions is a bonus. The f/1.4 opens up a whole world of
photography that would be otherwise inaccessible.

However, the more I got into it, the more I enjoyed the qualities
of the 50 mm. There's something very intimate and natural about the
perspective it gives: shooting with a 50 mm is sort of like
listening to an interesting conversation without actually taking
part. You're neither a long-distance observer nor a participant.
I've also found that there's a lot of variety in the 50 mm that you
can get by changing your PoV: pull back and lower your PoV, and you
get something that has a similar effect to a wide-angle; get closer
and above, and you get something that looks like a tele. The
perspective is neither here nor there, so it can be either.

It even works great for situationals: it gives a more intimate
perspective than a 35 mm: it forces closer crops and gives the
pictures more tension. Here's a series of situationals with the 50
mm (apologies for the technical quality: it's "family snapshots"
that I wanted to get on the net quickly, so I didn't spend much
time fixing them; also, I shot them on color slide pushed to 1000
ISO, and either I did something wrong or the lab screwed it up,
because they turned out pretty bad; I could only rescue them by
turning them into B/W):

http://www.seittipaja.fi/xmas-rosies/index.html

It's more Zen than that though. I just enjoy it most, and it seems
to bring out the best in me. With a zoom lens, I'd just change
focal length, pan, and shoot. The 50 mm makes me dance around and
work at the composition, and I end up putting more of "myself" into
the pictures. The challenge of the limitation is part of it.
"Normal" is just a focal length that's suited to the way I take
pictures.

Petteri
--
http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/

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Frank Bayley said:

Well for me, I'm just waiting to find out how the 10D price will
stand up against the 7Hi ($1,999.00CDN) at the local shop
(Henry's). And then how much for a "reasonable" quality zoom to
start with. If the total's within spitting distance of the 7Hi,
I'll give serious consideration to switching my order to a 10D.

As for Pentax's *ist entry, I'm sure it's just what others are
looking for, but it's not for me; regardless of the price. I want
something with a tad of bulk like my old Pentax; something that
doesn't get lost in my hands, and has a little tonnage to it.

The down side of course with the 10D would be having to change to
the Canon Forum just after I've managed to almost figure out who's
who here: alot of very talented people with great advice in this
group. Anyway, we'll see.

Cheers
Frank B.
(Still patiently waiting for my on-order 7Hi)

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Mike Gallagher said:

Thanks for your reply Petteri,

You are good !!! I particulary like the one photo entitled ISA. I
suspect there was some cropping, but I never would have suspected
you could pull off a shot like that with a 50mm.

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Mike Gallagher said:

Another reason to
follow you in the forum - "Oh Mighty One". I am in "Awe". Gawed
I'm glad you didn't go away for good. Now I'm gonna have to
re-look this 50mm thing.

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Mike Gallagher said:

You know Petteri, there once was an accomplished photographer (who
shot only in B&W) who was known for his achievements in photography
for what he shot with the 50mm. There was a book a long time ago
published with his photos, which like yours, were primarily of
people. Maybe you know whom I'm speaking of.

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Mike Gallagher said:

I spent a whole week
in Berlin Germany trying to emulate with 64 OSI film what he
achieved, quite unsuccessfully. Threw everything out. You either
have it, or you don't. I don't. But I sure admire "Them-that-do".
Thanks for sharing.

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Frank B from AZ said:

Other than stating its size, Pentax hasn't said anything about the
*ist D. I just hope its performance isn't as weak as its name.

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Frank from AZ said:

They don't even identify what the body is made out of.

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Frank from AZ said:

I own a
bunch of Pentax lensesr and love their 35mm stuff, but I may be
making the switch over to Canon or the new Oly 4/3 if the *ist is
as weak as its name. Anyone want to buy some high end Pentax AF
mount lenses and gear? Tokina 70-200 2.8, Pentax 100 2.8 macro,
Sigma 28-70 2.8, Tokina 400 5.6, Sigman 24m 2.8, FTZ 500 flash and
Sunpak Ringflash.

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Petteri Sulonen said:

erwinv said:

Add a battery grip? (I think I saw a BG20 or such mentioned with
vertical release)

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Thanks for the suggestions, everyone. I'd still have to carry all
that. What I'd really like is a camera that fits into my pocket but
expands to a 1 kg all-metal SLR once I pick it up.

Petteri
--
http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/

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Bob Shellem said:

And in the other pocket, a beautiful model! LOL

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Frank B from AZ said:

And what is that body made of? Canon just went
magnesium with the 10D, for a reason. Why would Pentax remain
with polycarb?

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Frank B from AZ said:

Actually, those are simply the specs of the *ist non digital, no
specs as to digital performance other than the CCD related items,
which is the same Sony CCD Nikon uses in the D100. What's the
buffer size? What's the FPS? what's the shutter lag? What's the
buffer clearing speed? Those are the specs that set digital
cameras apart.

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Frank from AZ said:

And what is that body made of? Canon just went
magnesium with the 10D, for a reason. Why would Pentax remain
with polycarb?

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Frank from AZ said:

Seems Pentax is about 2 years too late with its
DSLR offering, which sucks for people in my position who've
invested in Pentax 35 gear.

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Petteri Sulonen said:

More than a little, I think. Time is on the Big Two's side, too: by
this time, I'm pretty sure they've amortized most of the
development costs for a D-SLR system, and will be able to build on
it very economically. Any new entrant on the market will have to
undercut them in price, which means that they will have trouble
getting back their R/D costs -- even if with the availability of
sensors and DSP's these costs aren't anywhere near as high as they
were two, three years ago.

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Petteri Sulonen said:

How about $1500? Or $1000? $750? That's the damnedest thing about
them: they keep approaching the price of a film SLR system. Not
very long from now, the price will drop below your pain
threshold... and then you will be tempted.

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Andrew Cruickshank said:

Petteri Sulonen said:

Got your attention, no?

Seriously, I think Minolta's going to be in real trouble, unless it
comes up with something (read: an affordable, high-quality D-SLR)
really fast.

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As things stand they have to be losing high end Dynax/Maxxum sales
simply because it looks increasingly stupid to invest in Minolta glass
without a DSLR option.

--
---------------
Andrew.

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David Goolsby said:

Hello everyone!

Being a newbie, I've been following the posts here to get the feel
of the group and would like to contribute my 2 cents worth. It
seems that everyone is in agreement that Minolta needs to come out
with something quick and affordable to take advantage of existing
glass to at least stop the bleeding (financially) and mass
defections to other makers. It seems to me that the Maxxum/Dynax 5
body would be the obvious choice to stem the tide. Perhaps adding a
new lens (SSM?) to stir up immediate excitement and sales.

It also seems logical that the Maxxum/Dynax 7 body would be the
platform to carry them forward for the next 2-3 years. At it's
current price point after you throw in the image sensor and
required electronics you would be looking at an $1100-$1200 D-SLR
(can you say D10 stiff competitor if not D10 Killer?

If Minolta has been guilty of anything in the digital realm it's
been getting there first, setting a premium price and getting
nailed by the competition with quality as good as (if not better)
for a few hundred dollars less and more bells and whistles (Sony
F707).

Six megapixels seems to be a good "starting" point for all but the
most demanding photographic needs. So the emphasis now should be on
image quality/color fidelity. Has anyone seen the sample images
from the Fuji FinePix F700? In my opinion, these images are as
stunning as anything I've seen from an S2 or D100, if not better.

And, oh by the way. The 4/3 system by Olympus is now a reality if
you haven't already heard.

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Andrew Cruickshank said:

Frank B from AZ said:

And what is that body made of? Canon just went
magnesium with the 10D, for a reason. Why would Pentax remain
with polycarb?

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Well that's a no-brainer. Cost.

I haven't seen anybody complaining about polycarbonate SLR shells
over the last 15 years --and Pentax are presumably hitting a price
sensitive spot where they have to sit well below Canon and Nikon.

--
---------------
Andrew.

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David Goolsby said:

If Minolta has been guilty of anything in the digital realm it's
been getting there first, setting a premium price and getting

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David Goolsby said:

nailed by the competition with quality as good as (if not better)
for a few hundred dollars less and more bells and whistles (Sony
F707).

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David Goolsby said:

And, oh by the way. The 4/3 system by Olympus is now a reality if
you haven't already heard.

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Frank B from AZ said:

Polycarbonate SLR shells haven't been an issue for the past 15
years because they weren't digital---the metal bodies help
considerably with the noise factor---Canon went metal with the 10D
and lowered the price from the poly bodied D60--so price doesn't
seem to be a factor.

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Frank from AZ said:

My Oly has a metal body specifically to
reduce noise (if you believe Oly's engineers).

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Frank from AZ said:

It's not as easy or
simple as you may think.

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