About Diffraction on m4/3s

F=8.0 maximum looks best. F=11.0 in a pinch. Higher F-Numbers past F=11.0 probably not advised

See this: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=40134803
Thxs Detail Man for the straightforward reply.

I'll try shooting it again at the range of f5.6-8. My pic above looks very sharp but on 100% still can be seen sharpness degrades, details blurry as it move further away from the centre sweet spot. Is this what it meant by deffraction?
No, that is due to optical imperfections/aberrations of the lens-system itself. The phrase "sweet spot" is usually used to refer to a range of F-Numbers at which a smaller aperture-diameter most effectively counteracts some (but not all) optical imperfections/aberrations of the lens-system itself while not itself causing high levels of diffraction light-spreading. This web-site is very informative:

http://toothwalker.org/optics.html
If yes then now I should watch out for the aperture I'm using.
Try to use the lowest F-Number possible (to achieve the Depth of Field that you want at the particular camera-subject distance, as well as to reduce some of the effects of unwanted optical imperfections/aberrations of the lens-system) - because when F-Number increases, Shutter Speed has to be reduced in order to maintain the same Signal/Noise Ratio (SNR), or ISO Gain has to be increased (which will increase the extent to which Read Noise will degrade SNR in shadow-areas).
 


Is everyone here aware of diffraction when shooting with m4/3s at a small aperture. I don't know if diffraction has occured in my pic above or not. How to tell and are they any indications of the diffraction so that I can avoid in the future. Of course I'm looking for the sharpest possible. What would be the ideal aperture? f8? f11? or maybe m4/3 need not be that small. Maybe an f5.6 is sufficient. My lens used in the pancake 17mm f2.8.
First of all, diffraction affects all systems at the same DOF, so mFT suffers diffraction no more than any other format. Furthermore, smaller pixels do not result in greater diffraction -- that's another myth.

OK, that out of the way. The "ideal aperture" is the one that produces the "best" photo.

If motion blur is not an issue (or even desirable), then the "ideal aperture" is what results in the static portions of the scene being their sharpest. Here, DOF is key. Portions of the scene outside the DOF are, by definition, not going to be sharp.

However, stopping down to get the whole scene within the DOF may result in noticable diffraction softening for the portions of the scene within the DOF. The ideal aperture represents the best balance of DOF and diffraction softening. On the other hand, if the whole of the scene is within the DOF, then stopping down only increases diffraction softening.

If you "need" to stop down to increase motion blur for creative effect, then you may wish to consider using a wider aperture and a CPL and/or an ND filter to reduce the light and increase the shutter speed.

If motion blur is an issue, then you have to balance the DOF with the noise. Stopping down will increase the DOF resulting in more of the photo being rendered sharply, but for a given shutter speed (to mitigate motion blur), this results in less light falling on the sensor and thus more noise. So, the competent photographer has to balance DOF with noise.

Hope this helps!
Well hello there Great B. Thxs for your reply. Its best suited for an FF user I think.
Actually, the advice I gave is independent of format. Since the amount of diffraction systems is the same for all systems at the same DOF, the format does not matter in terms of "optimal aperture" (unless, of course, we are talking about DOFs for a given persective and framing that one system can do that another cannot, which is not the issue here).

In terms of the lens, we have two things going on that affect sharpness (aside from DOF): lens aberrations and diffraction softening. As you stop down, the lens aberrations lessen, and the diffraction softening increases.

For a fast lens, lens aberrations are dominant wide open, and lessening lens aberrations outweigh increasing diffraction softening to a point, and then diffraction softening begins to dominate until it's pretty much the only factor.

Where that point is depends on the lens and where in the frame you are looking. Let's take the 17 / 2.8 pancake as an example, as it is one of the lenses you own:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/OlympusEP1/22

As you can see, center sharpness increases from f/2.8 to f/4.5 as lessening aberrations outweigh increasing diffraction, hover until f/5.6 as they balance out, and then it's downhill from there as diffraction softening dominates.

We see basically the same for the corners, but it's not uncommon for the corners to lag a stop behind the center, since the lens aberrations in the corners are often worse than the lens aberrations in the center.

So, what I was saying in my entry post is format independent. The "best aperture" depends on many factors, but these factors are not a function of format unless, as I said, we are talking about DOFs that one format can do for a given perspective and framing that another cannot, which is not the case for the photo you presented.
Recently I just acquired a tenor sax. I've been an Alto all this while. Great feeling to double. Tenor is simply fantastic. Its heavy, bulky but I sure envy Stan Getz and Coltrane. Been in the circle of Phil Woods, Hodges and Desmond long time.

In short Great B, I got it.

Yes I cannot make my alto sound like tenor nor the other way round. But when I'm on my alto, I want to sound as best possible. I just have to experiment more on the reed mpiece combo for that sound I'm looking for.
A nice analogy, but not relevant to my post, as my post had nothing to do with FF vs mFT. Everything I said applies equally to FF, APS-C, mFT, and any other format.
 
For full frame: f/8 is optimal, f/11 very good, f/16 is still good, downhill from there.

For APS-C: f/5.6 is optimal, f/8 very good, f/11 is still good, downhill from there.

For m43: f/4 is optimal, f/5.6 very good, f/8 is still good, downhill from there.

The main problem with m43 is that most zoom lenses are too slow to get optimal results. For best optical performance a lens is typically stopped down by 2 stops. On my previous camera (Canon 450D) with the 17-55 f/2.8 I obtained the very best results at f/5.6. On m43 with say an f/3.5-5.6 zoom lens that would be f/6.7-11 and that's where it all goes wrong because f/11 is visibly soft due to diffraction. To be as close to optimal as a constant f/2.8 zoom lens is on APS-C the zoom lens for m43 should be constant f/2.

I have seen the Olympus Zuiko Digital ED 35-100mm F2.0 (four-thirds, not m43) and it is just humongous (and very expensive too). It completely dwarfs the coming Panasonic 35-100 f/2.8. That's where the m43 bottleneck is: with reasonably sized lenses we cannot stop down as much as on a larger format without running into he diffraction bottleneck.

--
Slowly learning to use the Olympus OM-D E-M5.
Public pictures at http://debra.zenfolio.com/ .
 
F=8.0 maximum looks best. F=11.0 in a pinch. Higher F-Numbers past F=11.0 probably not advised

See this: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=40134803
Thxs Detail Man for the straightforward reply.

I'll try shooting it again at the range of f5.6-8. My pic above looks very sharp but on 100% still can be seen sharpness degrades, details blurry as it move further away from the centre sweet spot. Is this what it meant by deffraction?
No, that is due to optical imperfections/aberrations of the lens-system itself. The phrase "sweet spot" is usually used to refer to a range of F-Numbers at which a smaller aperture-diameter most effectively counteracts some (but not all) optical imperfections/aberrations of the lens-system itself while not itself causing high levels of diffraction light-spreading. This web-site is very informative:

http://toothwalker.org/optics.html
If yes then now I should watch out for the aperture I'm using.
Try to use the lowest F-Number possible (to achieve the Depth of Field that you want at the particular camera-subject distance, as well as to reduce some of the effects of unwanted optical imperfections/aberrations of the lens-system) - because when F-Number increases, Shutter Speed has to be reduced in order to maintain the same Signal/Noise Ratio (SNR), or ISO Gain has to be increased (which will increase the extent to which Read Noise will degrade SNR in shadow-areas).
My widest fixed lens is that pancake 17 f2.8. I always use it widest open when doing street photos. Results are also very good. But for doing this type of architectural shot, seems quite tricky. I'll make sure to shoot between f4-f8 max and wont go beyond this friday. I'm totally not satisfied with f13.
 


Is everyone here aware of diffraction when shooting with m4/3s at a small aperture. I don't know if diffraction has occured in my pic above or not. How to tell and are they any indications of the diffraction so that I can avoid in the future. Of course I'm looking for the sharpest possible. What would be the ideal aperture? f8? f11? or maybe m4/3 need not be that small. Maybe an f5.6 is sufficient. My lens used in the pancake 17mm f2.8.
First of all, diffraction affects all systems at the same DOF, so mFT suffers diffraction no more than any other format. Furthermore, smaller pixels do not result in greater diffraction -- that's another myth.

OK, that out of the way. The "ideal aperture" is the one that produces the "best" photo.

If motion blur is not an issue (or even desirable), then the "ideal aperture" is what results in the static portions of the scene being their sharpest. Here, DOF is key. Portions of the scene outside the DOF are, by definition, not going to be sharp.

However, stopping down to get the whole scene within the DOF may result in noticable diffraction softening for the portions of the scene within the DOF. The ideal aperture represents the best balance of DOF and diffraction softening. On the other hand, if the whole of the scene is within the DOF, then stopping down only increases diffraction softening.

If you "need" to stop down to increase motion blur for creative effect, then you may wish to consider using a wider aperture and a CPL and/or an ND filter to reduce the light and increase the shutter speed.

If motion blur is an issue, then you have to balance the DOF with the noise. Stopping down will increase the DOF resulting in more of the photo being rendered sharply, but for a given shutter speed (to mitigate motion blur), this results in less light falling on the sensor and thus more noise. So, the competent photographer has to balance DOF with noise.

Hope this helps!
Well hello there Great B. Thxs for your reply. Its best suited for an FF user I think.
Actually, the advice I gave is independent of format. Since the amount of diffraction systems is the same for all systems at the same DOF, the format does not matter in terms of "optimal aperture" (unless, of course, we are talking about DOFs for a given persective and framing that one system can do that another cannot, which is not the issue here).

In terms of the lens, we have two things going on that affect sharpness (aside from DOF): lens aberrations and diffraction softening. As you stop down, the lens aberrations lessen, and the diffraction softening increases.

For a fast lens, lens aberrations are dominant wide open, and lessening lens aberrations outweigh increasing diffraction softening to a point, and then diffraction softening begins to dominate until it's pretty much the only factor.

Where that point is depends on the lens and where in the frame you are looking. Let's take the 17 / 2.8 pancake as an example, as it is one of the lenses you own:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/OlympusEP1/22

As you can see, center sharpness increases from f/2.8 to f/4.5 as lessening aberrations outweigh increasing diffraction, hover until f/5.6 as they balance out, and then it's downhill from there as diffraction softening dominates.

We see basically the same for the corners, but it's not uncommon for the corners to lag a stop behind the center, since the lens aberrations in the corners are often worse than the lens aberrations in the center.

So, what I was saying in my entry post is format independent. The "best aperture" depends on many factors, but these factors are not a function of format unless, as I said, we are talking about DOFs that one format can do for a given perspective and framing that another cannot, which is not the case for the photo you presented.
Thxs for the link Great B.

This lens is probably not best suited for this kind of work.
 
I'd suggest making enlargements and see what is good for what you are personally doing with your photos. The "sharpest" doesn't matter that much when the differences are small.

Anyway, I mostly shoot my 17 at f5.6 because it is probably the near the best and the DoF is typically perfect for what I shoot. I almost always shoot stationary scenes on a tripod so shutter speed is almost never a factor for me.

Rule of thumb is that most m43 lenses, no matter what, are going to be best when shot f5.6. If you are after the "best" performance from almost any m43 lens, this is where you will find it.

Good luck! The Oly 17 can be a fine lens (no matter what anyone says).
I'd suggest you check out the lens review.. It does provide you with the answer.
Well thxs kermitG9 and mark.

This friday night will redo the shot. F5.6-8.
 
I have seen the Olympus Zuiko Digital ED 35-100mm F2.0 (four-thirds, not m43) and it is just humongous (and very expensive too). It completely dwarfs the coming Panasonic 35-100 f/2.8. That's where the m43 bottleneck is: with reasonably sized lenses we cannot stop down as much as on a larger format without running into he diffraction bottleneck.

--
Slowly learning to use the Olympus OM-D E-M5.
Public pictures at http://debra.zenfolio.com/ .
I C Paul. So its not that necessary to stop down too much. Perhaps the zd35-100f2 and the zd14-35f2 is already optimal at f4s. But then is the DOF wide enough to get all in frame sharp, detailed and clear?
 
I have seen the Olympus Zuiko Digital ED 35-100mm F2.0 (four-thirds, not m43) and it is just humongous (and very expensive too). It completely dwarfs the coming Panasonic 35-100 f/2.8. That's where the m43 bottleneck is: with reasonably sized lenses we cannot stop down as much as on a larger format without running into he diffraction bottleneck.

--
Slowly learning to use the Olympus OM-D E-M5.
Public pictures at http://debra.zenfolio.com/ .
I C Paul. So its not that necessary to stop down too much. Perhaps the zd35-100f2 and the zd14-35f2 is already optimal at f4s. But then is the DOF wide enough to get all in frame sharp, detailed and clear?
For the shot in your original post (with a 17mm, F/2.8), you have more than plenty DOF. Any camera to subject (plane-of-focus) distance of 6.9 Feet (the Hyperfocal Distance at that Focal Length and F-Number) or more will cause the background to be in focus. Better yet, by focusing on the building in the far-field (not something closer), the building (which is presumably most important) will be in even better focus than if you focused on something at 6.9 Feet. The Hyperfocal Distance for your M43 E-M5 is fairly easy to calculate. The formula for it HFD (in Feet) is:

HFD in Feet = (Focal Length in mm)^(2) / ( (15) x (F-Number) )
.

The HFD increases rapidly with increasing Focal Length, and decreases in proportion to F-Number.

HFD for Focal Length of 14mm at F=4.0 equals 3.27 Feet.

HFD for Focal Length of 17mm at F=2.8 equals 6.89 Feet.

HFD for Focal Length of 35mm at F=4.0 equals 20.42 Feet.
 
I have not found any traces of diffraction on your photo
--
I’m surprised how much Wikipedia contributes to the forum.

 
I have not found any traces of diffraction on your photo
Surely you can see the "starburst" effects on the light sources? That's diffraction at work :-)

PS: I know what you were getting at - loss of general sharpness because of diffraction effects of small apertures. But it's worth emphasising that not all diffraction effects are undesirable; deliberate choice of small apertures is often a worthwhile compromise to get the overall "look" that's wanted.

--
John Bean [BST (GMT+1)]
 
I have not found any traces of diffraction on your photo
Surely you can see the "starburst" effects on the light sources? That's diffraction at work :-)

PS: I know what you were getting at - loss of general sharpness because of diffraction effects of small apertures. But it's worth emphasising that not all diffraction effects are undesirable; deliberate choice of small apertures is often a worthwhile compromise to get the overall "look" that's wanted.

--
John Bean [BST (GMT+1)]
Thxs s_grins. I know upon seeing the photo, all eyes are on the building. Yes its very sharp for a small lens. But John Bean is quick to point out the starburst is an indication. Though I don't know if starlights and starbursts are indeed a diffraction indicator. I think almost all 4/3s and m4/3s produce very ugly starlight effect. Could it be due to the circular bladed aperture design.

John Bean, I wouldnt consider my photo has a loss of general sharpness. The centre is very sharp as you can see but viewing 100%, areas away from the centre gets soft. At the time I made the shot, I thought of making the DOF very broad, so there's the f13. Have tried f16 and smaller but the result are very ugly. Was thinking of f8 but feared the DOF would be shallower and appear even unsharp. Tomorrow evening I'll try again at various openings not smaller then f13.
 
I believe the ideal aperture in regards to diffration is sub f/1.

That said, lens aberations are the overwhelming issue at apertures far less than that.

The sharpest, highest resolving m4/3 lenses are their best at f/2.8 and are worse on either side of that aperture (even if only the slightest bit worse when stopped down).

Generally you don't start getting anything like preceivable reduction in resolution due to diffraction until you stop down to below f/5.6. Even at that, most lenses optical quality will continue to improve enough that the increased diffraction takes only the smallest of tolls. I forget the exact "number" but I believe the rule of thumb is that you can notice a difference in MTF of 10%. That would be pixel peeping though. Likely you might notice a perceivable difference at around a 20% difference in resolution for a modest size screen reproduction or print.

The difference between a sharp lens at f/2.8 and stopped down to f/5.6 is probably less than 10% reduction in resolution as a result of diffraction. Stop down to f/8 and it is probably still below a 20% reduction in resolution. Stop down to f/11 and it will probably be just preceivable compared to f/2.8. Stop down to f/16 and diffraction softening WILL be noticable. Stop down to f/22 and it is going to look BAD.

In general I try to never stop down below f/8. I very rarely need to. I am more than willing to go to f/11 if I need the DoF. I've stopped down below f/11 a handful of times either doing near macro work and really wanted the extra DoF even at the expense of lower image resolution or when doing motion blur work (like your image, waterfalls, etc) where bumping it to f/16 will get the desired effect. I feel like if the overall image is softened some it doesn't detract much as the motion is softening the key portion of the image as well.

I've tried f/22 with my Panasonic 14mm for waterfall work a couple of times, but the overall image is so soft as to be unusable for anything more than a little 600x450 web display image. f/16 is just fine for a regular print even if it does look a little softer.
--

Many things dealing with Olympus and their OM and Pen cameras, plus my general photography and musings http://omexperience.wordpress.com/
 
... I wouldnt consider my photo has a loss of general sharpness. The centre is very sharp as you can see but viewing 100%, areas away from the centre gets soft ... At the time I made the shot, I thought of making the DOF very broad, so there's the f13.
Unrelated to DOF (which is simply not an issue whatsoever at this camera-subject distance).
See: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=42543867

Related to other optical characteristics of the lens-system.

Have a look at this SLRgear applet for your lens (using in-camera JPG corrections of an Oly E-P1):

http://slrgear.com/reviews/zproducts/olympus17f28m/tloader.htm

The lowest lens-blur (in BxU) is at F=5.6, with F=8.0 being only slightly worse. Have a look at F=11 and F=16 (F=13 not tested), and there is your answer . Mechanically stabilize the shot as well

The "Lens Softness" corrections of DxO Optics Pro Optical Corrections Modules (RAW and JPG) support this lens on the E-M5. RAW-level "Lens Softness" corrections are more effective than JPG.

See: http://www.dxo.com/en/photo/dxo_optics_pro/for_your_equipment
 
I recommend the following article for a good discussion of diffraction limited photography:

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/diffraction-photography.htm

It's only the interaction of Airy disk size (determined by lens f-stop) and pixel size that creates diffraction limits, not the sensor dimensions, per se.

Examples using the calculator at that site:

The (rather old) 135 format full frame Nikon D2H has 4.11 megapixels, and a pixel size (pitch) of 14.5 µm. It isn't diffraction limited until after f/22.

The (state of the art) 135 format full frame Nikon D800 has 36.56 megapixels, and a pixel size of 4.9 µm. It is diffraction limited between f/8 and f/11.

That's not to say that the D800 doesn't resolve much better than the D2H between f/11 and f/22. Only that at f/11 and above, it is diffraction effects that limit maximum effective resolving power to below the 36 megapixels on the sensor. By f/32, I suspect like the D2H it also has an effective resolution below 4 megapixels.

In the Micro 4/3s format, 12 megapixel cameras have a 4.3 µm pixel size and are diffraction limited after f/8, but 16 megapixel cameras have a pixel size of 3.7 µm and are already diffraction limited just before f/8.

While there are advantages to having higher megapixel sensors in resolving power at wide apertures and in resistance to moire and noise (if downsampled), I think physics are dictating an end of the megapixel wars, within at most one more resolution doubling.
 
Likely. Maybe I am just greedy, but I still wouldn't complain if m4/3 inches up to 20 or 24mp before it "ends".

At any rate, if you look at it though, comparing a 24mp camera at f/32 and the same size sensor camera with 4mp would still produce different results. The 24mp camera would generate a slightly higher effective resolution in the end.

You have to combine a whole slew of things to get the final effective resolution. Lens resolving capability, pixel count/pixel size, f-stop and signal to noise ratio.

Even if something is f-stop limited and has the same lens and the same signal to noise ratio, having a higher pixel count will result in at least very slightly higher effective resolution (it might not even be perceptible).

If you look at lens charts (yay pixel peeping!) there are plenty of lenses though that have very high resolutions well below f/5.6 for m4/3. Personally I'd rather stretch resolving abilities and be aperture limited than be sensor pixel count limited.

Though, as I said, I don't really need any more. 16mp is in general very dandy for me. Now I wouldn't sneeze at 20 or 24mp, but everything else needs improving along the way (or more).
--

Many things dealing with Olympus and their OM and Pen cameras, plus my general photography and musings http://omexperience.wordpress.com/
 
Though, as I said, I don't really need any more. 16mp is in general very dandy for me. Now I wouldn't sneeze at 20 or 24mp, but everything else needs improving along the way (or more).
That's a very nice, and accurate, way to look at things.
 


Here is another example I took yesterday evening. Just after sundown. I did not go to the place of the pic at the beginning of this thread due to time constraint and catching the last Blue Hour before it's gone. So since I was closer to this place, I took out my camera bag and tripod.

This time, after reading all you guys replies (very precious infos), I was a little more conservative with the aperture. Just a stop down from the max at f5.6. Looking at it 100% I can say that it is OK though not too overly excellent. But I bet all other camera makes will still have weaknesses one way or the other. Sharpness is satisfying. I did not add any sharpenings from the RAW nor at PS. One very downside to this Oly is the Starbursts. It doesn't give that sharp starred starbursts.

All in all, I think I did my best to avoid the "Deffraction" factor well.

JAKOP
 
Hi

I really like these sort of dusk/night shots, and I learnt something from this thread also. So thank you for posting.
--
Berni29
OMD, GH1 + Pana 20mm & 14-45mm Oly 45mm (prev E30, E510, E1)
 
Hi

I really like these sort of dusk/night shots, and I learnt something from this thread also. So thank you for posting.
--
Berni29
OMD, GH1 + Pana 20mm & 14-45mm Oly 45mm (prev E30, E510, E1)
"....you..." means for everyone here right.
 


Here is another example I took yesterday evening. Just after sundown. I did not go to the place of the pic at the beginning of this thread due to time constraint and catching the last Blue Hour before it's gone. So since I was closer to this place, I took out my camera bag and tripod.

This time, after reading all you guys replies (very precious infos), I was a little more conservative with the aperture. Just a stop down from the max at f5.6. Looking at it 100% I can say that it is OK though not too overly excellent. But I bet all other camera makes will still have weaknesses one way or the other. Sharpness is satisfying. I did not add any sharpenings from the RAW nor at PS. One very downside to this Oly is the Starbursts. It doesn't give that sharp starred starbursts.

All in all, I think I did my best to avoid the "Deffraction" factor well.
Indeed. And there is detail there, and it can be tweaked to make the image crisper (w/o over doing it). I'd have gone down to f7.1.

And yes, don't expect much in the way of star effects from night street lights with this lens. Nor much with the 7-14. The 12/2 does better, but the best effects I get are from Voightlander primes.

Here's the 12/2 at f6.3. I'd stop down further with this if I were after that effect, but this was mainly a shortest exposure I could manage for a quick shot from atop a rock. Note the offset ghosting of some of the brighter lights way from the center, also to be anticipated with the 9-18 as well (not much one can do about it).





--
...Bob, NYC
http://www.bobtullis.com

"Well, sometimes the magic works. . . Sometimes, it doesn't." - Little Big Man
.
 

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