RX100 lens profile in RAW? (Lightroom 4)

Could anyone of you provide lens correction settings for the RX100? I am trying to create some presets in order to organize my workflow when working with RAW in LR4, and I noticed that in-camera jpgs are heavily corrected at the corners. So I wonder what the appropriate lens correction setting would be? RX100 lens is not listed in LR's preset menue. Suggestions appreciated. THX

And yes, I m using LR v4.2. Also I ve read somewhere here that lens correction is applied automatically in RAW, but when comparing to in-camera jpg it is more distorted and blurry in the corners i.e. not corrected.

zoranT said:

And yes, I m using LR v4.2. Also I ve read somewhere here that lens correction is applied automatically in RAW, but when comparing to in-camera jpg it is more distorted and blurry in the corners i.e. not corrected.

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As you've already read...There will not be a profile in the menu because the correction profile is automatically applied (this is true of most fixed-lens cameras). The camera does not allow for changing lenses, so LR does not allow you to select a lens profile.

Slight differences does not mean that it is not corrected. If you prefer the jpeg correction, then you can either tweak the lightroom correction using the manual sliders or you can use jpegs.

I think a previous reply sort of mentioned this.

There is no separate lens profile since the RX100's lens is fixed and forms part of the camera.

You might want to try shooting a brick wall and then use the Manual Lens Correction to get the sliders to correct any distortion. Use the Show Grid to help. When you have your distortion corrected you can save them as a Preset.

Note, the term I used above are related to Adobe Camera RAW. The same functionality is in Lightroom but they use different terms

Dave

So, how can I make LR undo the auto-lens correction? After all, this is RAW, and it should not be done automatically. What sense is there in RAW other than being able to manually adjust after the fact? I just tend to believe that there is no auto lens adjustment, and this would explain the difference to jpg output.

By rights there should be no auto lens correction ever applied, for any camera, by Lightroom. I base this assumption on the way Adobe Camera RAW functions. One assumes that since Lightroom contains ACR built in that both should function in the same way. But who knows.

So all I can help you with is ACR function examples. You will need to translate those into Lightroom terminology.

If you don't want any lens correction applied then don't check the Enable Lens Profile Corrections checkbox contained on the Profile tab - as in this example.





If you do enable it you are expected to identify the lens in question and ACR (and Lightroom) will use its lens profile database to adjust the image. This is such an example where I arbitrarily applied a Canon lens correction.





If you need to apply lens correction but ACR / Lightroom doesn't have the lens profile (ie: the RX100 Point & Shoot) Then switch over to the Manual tab and adjust the sliders. If you have an image where there are straight lines (ie: a brick wall) and you have the Grid displayed, you can adjust your image so the mortar lines in the brick wall become straight.





Here are two (poor) examples of a non-brick wall (but yet an RX100 RAW image) where the image has been 'adjusted'. Once you save the adjustments as a Preset you can reapply them at any time.

As shot...





After manual 'adjustment'...





Hope this helps.

Dave

zoranT said:

DavePlugh wrote:

By rights there should be no auto lens correction ever applied, for any camera, by Lightroom. I base this assumption on the way Adobe Camera RAW functions.

Click to expand...

ACR and Lightroom work the same for lens correction. The lens correction is applied automatically for some cameras (incl. RX100) even though the checkbox is not checked.

zoranT said:

zoranT wrote:

So, how can I make LR undo the auto-lens correction? After all, this is RAW, and it should not be done automatically. What sense is there in RAW other than being able to manually adjust after the fact? I just tend to believe that there is no auto lens adjustment, and this would explain the difference to jpg output.

Click to expand...

There is no way to undo the auto lens correction in LR/ACR. If you take a shot at wide angle and open it in a raw processor that does not perform auto corrections (like Raw Therapee), then you will see a very big difference between the corrected and uncorrected images. You can download Raw Therapee for free and see what a real raw file looks like. It will likely change what you "tend to believe".

Randy Benter said:

MrFresno said:

DavePlugh wrote:

By rights there should be no auto lens correction ever applied, for any camera, by Lightroom. I base this assumption on the way Adobe Camera RAW functions.

Click to expand...

ACR and Lightroom work the same for lens correction. The lens correction is applied automatically for some cameras (incl. RX100) even though the checkbox is not checked.

Click to expand...

Sorry, but all documentation suggests ACR doesn't apply (or even look up lens corrections data) unless the checkbox is checked.

Dave

DavePlugh said:

Randy Benter said:

DavePlugh said:

DavePlugh wrote:

By rights there should be no auto lens correction ever applied, for any camera, by Lightroom. I base this assumption on the way Adobe Camera RAW functions.

Click to expand...

ACR and Lightroom work the same for lens correction. The lens correction is applied automatically for some cameras (incl. RX100) even though the checkbox is not checked.

Click to expand...

Sorry, but all documentation suggests ACR doesn't apply (or even look up lens corrections data) unless the checkbox is checked.

Dave

Click to expand...

If you open a raw file in Raw Therapee like I suggested in my previous post, then you can see for yourself. All compact zoom lenses like the RX100 are going to have a fair amount of barrel distortion. The RX100 has about 3-4% and it is VERY obvious when uncorrected.

Don't just take someone elses word. Try it yourself and learn something.

Randy Benter said:

If you open a raw file in Raw Therapee like I suggested in my previous post, then you can see for yourself. All compact zoom lenses like the RX100 are going to have a fair amount of barrel distortion. The RX100 has about 3-4% and it is VERY obvious when uncorrected.

Don't just take someone elses word. Try it yourself and learn something.

Click to expand...

Ummm. I'm not sure how RAW Therapee got into the equation. I believe the OP was asking a question about Lightroom 4. I came in with ACR because of their similarities.

But, here you can help me out Randy... I used Adobe DNG converter against an RX100 ARW file. As far as I can tell DNG Converter doesn't have any camera and/or lens profiles. I then used Adobe Camera RAW version 6.7 - which by the way doesn't know anything about a camera called RX100.

So... How exactly did my ACR version 6.7 manage to do an auto lens correction against a P&S (fixed lens) camera it knows nothing about?

I figure I'd ask you in order that I can learn something.

Thanks in advance.

Dave

DavePlugh said:

Ummm. I'm not sure how RAW Therapee got into the equation. I believe the OP was asking a question about Lightroom 4. I came in with ACR because of their similarities.

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Because if you want to see an uncorrected raw, then you need to open the file in an application that does not perform automatic correction. You will never see the uncorrected image if you open the raw with an Adobe application.

DavePlugh said:

But, here you can help me out Randy... I used Adobe DNG converter against an RX100 ARW file. As far as I can tell DNG Converter doesn't have any camera and/or lens profiles. I then used Adobe Camera RAW version 6.7 - which by the way doesn't know anything about a camera called RX100.

So... How exactly did my ACR version 6.7 manage to do an auto lens correction against a P&S (fixed lens) camera it knows nothing about?

Click to expand...

Because DNG converter captured the lens correction data during the conversion and put it in the DNG file.

DavePlugh said:

I figure I'd ask you in order that I can learn something.

Click to expand...

I can continue answering your questions. But I don't think you will learn something until you open a raw file with one of the applications that does not do automatic lens correction. At this point you seem more interested in defending your incorrect assumptions, than actually finding the truth.

DavePlugh said:

Thanks in advance.

Click to expand...

You're welcome.

Wrong. This is only true for lenses/cameras in which the lens correction data is not baked into the RAW file. In the case of the RX100, Canon S100, etc., the lens correction data is included in the RAW file and is automatically applied by ACR/LR. This has already been discussed to death in the micro4/3 forums (same thing happens with m4/3 lenses).

In the case of these lenses/cameras ACR/LR does not need to look up lens correction in an external file/database because all the information needed for correction already is in the RAW file. Therefore checking/unchecking the box has no effect.

DavePlugh said:

Sorry, but all documentation suggests ACR doesn't apply (or even look up lens corrections data) unless the checkbox is checked.

Dave

Click to expand...

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OldDigiman said:

Wrong. This is only true for lenses/cameras in which the lens correction data is not baked into the RAW file. In the case of the RX100, Canon S100, etc., the lens correction data is included in the RAW file and is automatically applied by ACR/LR. This has already been discussed to death in the micro4/3 forums (same thing happens with m4/3 lenses).

In the case of these lenses/cameras ACR/LR does not need to look up lens correction in an external file/database because all the information needed for correction already is in the RAW file. Therefore checking/unchecking the box has no effect.

OldDigiman said:

Sorry, but all documentation suggests ACR doesn't apply (or even look up lens corrections data) unless the checkbox is checked.

Dave

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

OK. I'm almost at the point of saying I'm wrong, but... Other that being 'discussed to death' in micro4/3 forums where did you get your absolute definitive information that the lens profile is "baked" into RAW files? And where did you acquire the definitive information that Lightroom and ACR do an automatic lens correction - whether it was asked for or not?

Just asking. As we're in the middle of 'discussing to death' the same subject in this forum.

Like, where did you get that information about ACR and Lightroom?

Dave

OldDigiman said:

Wrong. This is only true for lenses/cameras in which the lens correction data is not baked into the RAW file. In the case of the RX100, Canon S100, etc., the lens correction data is included in the RAW file and is automatically applied by ACR/LR. This has already been discussed to death in the micro4/3 forums (same thing happens with m4/3 lenses).

In the case of these lenses/cameras ACR/LR does not need to look up lens correction in an external file/database because all the information needed for correction already is in the RAW file. Therefore checking/unchecking the box has no effect.

Click to expand...

If the lens correction data is included in every RAW file, why is that when Adobe Camera RAW gets installed it installs literally hundreds of LCP (lens profile) files.

As well, why when I use ACR on an RX100 ARW file, select Enable Lens Profile Corrections and select Default or Auto does ACR display this message?





I wonder why it didn't use the lens correction data 'baked' into the ARW file?

DavePlugh said:

OldDigiman said:

Wrong. This is only true for lenses/cameras in which the lens correction data is not baked into the RAW file. In the case of the RX100, Canon S100, etc., the lens correction data is included in the RAW file and is automatically applied by ACR/LR. This has already been discussed to death in the micro4/3 forums (same thing happens with m4/3 lenses).

In the case of these lenses/cameras ACR/LR does not need to look up lens correction in an external file/database because all the information needed for correction already is in the RAW file. Therefore checking/unchecking the box has no effect.

Click to expand...

If the lens correction data is included in every RAW file, why is that when Adobe Camera RAW gets installed it installs literally hundreds of LCP (lens profile) files.

Click to expand...

Not all cameras put lens correction data in the raw files. Many camera/lens combos need profiles and use the lcp files.

DavePlugh said:

As well, why when I use ACR on an RX100 ARW file, select Enable Lens Profile Corrections and select Default or Auto does ACR display this message?

I wonder why it didn't use the lens correction data 'baked' into the ARW file?

Click to expand...

Why would it apply a lens profile to an image that it already applied lens correction to? You are asking the app to do something it has already done.

It is clear that you still have not seen an uncorrected RX100 raw file. When you do, then the difference will be obvious to you. It is not a subtle difference. It only takes a couple minutes to download one of the raw apps and see for yourself.

There are a few raw processing apps you can use to see an uncorrected RX100 image. Raw Therapee is easy to download and use.

You can find it here: http://rawtherapee.com/blog/list/13

The RX100 lens has very strong barrel distortion at the wide end (28mm). If you open the same image in RT and LR/ACR, then you will see the difference.

That's a fair request, Dave. Here's a response in the m4/3 thread (Eric Chan is one of the Adobe folks who works on ACR and lens profiling(

"I asked Adobe about lens profiles for u4/3rds lenses in Lightroom and they stated that Lightroom is already performing distortion correction automatically during import. See text below.

Eric Chan, an employee of Photoshop Family, replied to Lightroom/Camera Raw: Support lens profiles for Olympus ZUIKO Digital lenses (E-System), an idea about Photoshop Family.

In truth, the level of distortion correction provided via the metadata in the Micro Four-Thirds system is much closer to the level of distortion correction provided by our Canon and Nikon lens profiles, compared to the uncorrected image. It is true the MFT correction is conservative, but in most cases I would say it is about 90% of the full possible correction.

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Chuck Dyer
HolyGrail Media
E-M5, 12-50mm, 75-300mm, HLD-6 Grip"

The whole thread is at http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=42059729

Here's another thread at Luminous Landscape where Eric chimed in: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=68265.0

DavePlugh said:

Just asking. As we're in the middle of 'discussing to death' the same subject in this forum.

Like, where did you get that information about ACR and Lightroom?

Dave

Click to expand...

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Just seen this thread. Capture One also does not apply lens correction. If you check the Capture One RAW against the JPEG you can see a huge difference in barrel distortion.

In fact, even in the latest Capture One 7 the option to correct the lens on RX100 images is still greyed out. I guess the support isn't there yet. Which means I can only use Lightroom so far.

DxO Optics Pro supports RX100 and has correction you can turn on and off.

Free trial on their website as well.

The Image Data Converter (IDC) software included with the RX100 allows you to switch off the lens correction in the RAW file as well.

Wow though - there's an impressive (depressive?) amount of barrel distortion being corrected out at the wide end by the software.

Out of respect for the person in the photo I took that led me to this thread I won't post it online, but I'll try to set up a more neutral example and post it instead. What I'd noticed in a wide angle shot was that although vertical lines in the background were well corrected, the person's head in the foreground - in the top left quadrant of the frame - was substantially elongated into the corner. Turning off the correction in IDC made the person's head look normal again, but the barrel distortion in the background became painfully obvious.


For what it's worth I found the discussion of this aspect of the RX100's design at the following link to be very informative.