Silent shutter mode on G5

Hi Folks,

Has anyone worked out or found out any solid information on the totally silent shooting mode that the G5 has?

What are the real life downsides to using this method on this particular camera (there must be some else they wouldn't bother with a mechanical shutter in there!).

Assuming you're working within whatever normal shooting parameters that are allowed (yes ... I know I need to RTFM!), has anyone seen evidence that the silent mode degrades the image in any way over the conventional shuttered mode?

TIA

Ga.

This is not a global electronic shutter. Therefore, there will be skewing with fast lateral movement or quick panning motions even in still images.

You can test this with the SH burst mode on the GH2. If you pan while burst shooting it will skew vertical lines. It is normally called the "Rolling Shutter Effect" or Wobble for videos.

In reality it is not as big an issue as people make it out to be. It can affect it but lack of IS and vibrations from the mechanical shutter are actually bigger issues.

--
GH2, GF1, & ZS3 Sample movies
http://www.youtube.com/user/mpgxsvcd#play/uploads

GH2 Setup Walk through
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uROQbbiiO2I

http://vimeo.com/user442745

GH2 Pictures
http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/4222674355/albums

Big Ga said:

Hi Folks,

Has anyone worked out or found out any solid information on the totally silent shooting mode that the G5 has?

What are the real life downsides to using this method on this particular camera (there must be some else they wouldn't bother with a mechanical shutter in there!).

Assuming you're working within whatever normal shooting parameters that are allowed (yes ... I know I need to RTFM!), has anyone seen evidence that the silent mode degrades the image in any way over the conventional shuttered mode?

TIA

Ga.

Click to expand...

Hi Gareth. This is all the manual says:

The electronic shutter can reduce the picture blur. Moreover, you can take pictures without the shutter sound when the camera is used in a quiet location.

Presumably this means any blur due to mechanical shutter vibration will be eradicated

• Flash is fixed to ([Forced Flash Off]).

But if you want to use the silent shutter in a wedding ceremony flash would probably be prohibited anyway

• If a subject is moving or your hands are shaking, the subject may appear distorted on the picture taken. Use of a tripod is recommended.

I think this refers to the jello effect - not sure whether OIS is still active to reduce handshake or not

• [Electronic Shutter] is disabled when [Burst Rate] is set to [SH].

• You can turn off the shutter sound at [E-Shutter Vol] in [Beep]. (P71)

But even when you set it to silent you still get an almost indiscernible click so you know the shot has been taken

• Be sure to pay special attention to the privacy, the likeness rights, etc. of the subject when you use this function. Use at your own risk.

When the G5 was announced I thought this feature would have some sort of limitation to it, such as jpg only or reduced file sizes, but I was pleasantly surprised to find that it produces full size files, including raws.

I found it useful for close ups of butterflies, being able to take several shots as I moved closer to the subject, without the shutter noise of the first shot scaring off the subject. The results seem very sharp at 100%. I'm no expert at analysing image quality and have not done any like for like comparisons with the mechanical shutter, but it does look as though it could prove very useful.
--
Vaughan
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/jvwpc/

Vaughan Williams said:

the manual says:

Click to expand...

Thanks for that.

Casual side by side shooting normal v silent doesn't seem to show much obvious difference in the JPGS, but I haven't had a chance to do any real testing, plus I'd like to look at the RAW file to be certain, however I really dont have time at the moment and don't want to be mucking about with Silkypix or whatever is shipped with the camera. I'll have to wait for the next ACR version to appear before I can work on the files.

However in the next few days, I have a photo trip coming up, and I would like to take the G5 and 45-175x to save weight for the walking bits, and if the silent shutter mode helps/avoids the occasional double stroke effect, then I'll use it. But I don't want to do this if there is any significant degradation in any aspect of IQ for future (possible severe) PP work. These would be landscape images, so I'm not particularly concerned at this moment in any movement issues, but one thing I'd like to know NOW is whether a base ISO shot at 'normal' shutter speeds is going to give a 100% equivalent file (in terms of sensor output) if taken in silent mode rather than the normal shuttered one.

G.

mpgxsvcd said:

This is not a global electronic shutter. Therefore, there will be skewing with fast lateral movement or quick panning motions even in still images.

You can test this with the SH burst mode on the GH2. If you pan while burst shooting it will skew vertical lines. It is normally called the "Rolling Shutter Effect" or Wobble for videos.

In reality it is not as big an issue as people make it out to be. It can affect it but lack of IS and vibrations from the mechanical shutter are actually bigger issues.

Click to expand...

I understand the desire for IBIS, but what problems are you having with your G5 and shutter vibrations? What kind of an issue is it for you or anyone you know who owns a G5?
Dan

mpgxsvcd said:

--
GH2, GF1, & ZS3 Sample movies
http://www.youtube.com/user/mpgxsvcd#play/uploads

GH2 Setup Walk through
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uROQbbiiO2I

http://vimeo.com/user442745

GH2 Pictures
http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/4222674355/albums

Click to expand...

--

Will I learn from life's lessons or will I lose my faith in the goodness life's promise had to offer?

Sorry what is a global shutter and what problems brings it? what cameras use it? Thank you.

--
Antonello

Big Ga said:

Hi Folks,

Has anyone worked out or found out any solid information on the totally silent shooting mode that the G5 has?

What are the real life downsides to using this method on this particular camera (there must be some else they wouldn't bother with a mechanical shutter in there!).

Assuming you're working within whatever normal shooting parameters that are allowed (yes ... I know I need to RTFM!), has anyone seen evidence that the silent mode degrades the image in any way over the conventional shuttered mode?

TIA

Ga.

Click to expand...

There is the possible jello effect as already mentioned. Also you are limited to a maximum ISO of 1600 I believe. I'd imagine there's also a minimum shutter duration as well, but don't know what that is!

Michael

easyliving said:

Sorry what is a global shutter

Click to expand...

See http://dvxuser.com/jason/CMOS-CCD/

easyliving said:

and what problems brings it?

Click to expand...

It solves problems that are caused by the mechanical shock problems of the current focal plane shutters, and eliminates the distortions caused by the current rolling shutter of CMOS. It is the way of the future once the problems are worked out. Makes a camera cheaper to manufacture and more reliable in the long run.

easyliving said:

what cameras use it?

Click to expand...

The Nikon J1 and V1 use one but it seems that it has problems with flash sync speed limited to 1/60 second, which is way worse than the mechanical focal plane shutters. I am not aware of larger sensors with global shutters, others will know more.

Regards........ Guy

Guy Parsons said:

Guy Parsons said:

what cameras use it?

Click to expand...

The Nikon J1 and V1 use one but it seems that it has problems with flash sync speed limited to 1/60 second, which is way worse than the mechanical focal plane shutters.

Click to expand...

The fact that the flash sync is only 1/60 tells you that they're not global shutters, even though they are electronic. Some of the old Nikon DSLRs (up until the D40) did have CCDs with global shutters and unrestricted flash sync (with dumb strobes). While they also had mechanical shutters to help cut down on blooming issues, the faster shutter speeds were effectively done electronically.

This information is inaccurate. Global Electronic shutters are so expensive that they cannot be implemented in consumer cameras yet.

The Phantom Flex camera can shoot at greater than 1080p resolutions with more than 4000 frames per second because it has a global shutter. However, it costs more than $300,000.

No current consumer camera has a global electronic shutter. The Nikon 1 series does not have it. They have a rolling shutter except they use a sensor with 250 frames per second read out speed. That helps but does not eliminate the jello effect completely.

The Canon and Sony cameras use a first curtain electronic shutter. That reduces vibrations caused by the first movement of the shutter. This helps with long focal length photography(Think Astro Photography).

Guy Parsons said:

It solves problems that are caused by the mechanical shock problems of the current focal plane shutters, and eliminates the distortions caused by the current rolling shutter of CMOS. It is the way of the future once the problems are worked out. Makes a camera cheaper to manufacture and more reliable in the long run.

Guy Parsons said:

what cameras use it?

Click to expand...

The Nikon J1 and V1 use one but it seems that it has problems with flash sync speed limited to 1/60 second, which is way worse than the mechanical focal plane shutters. I am not aware of larger sensors with global shutters, others will know more.

Regards........ Guy

Click to expand...

--
GH2, GF1, & ZS3 Sample movies
http://www.youtube.com/user/mpgxsvcd#play/uploads

GH2 Setup Walk through
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uROQbbiiO2I

http://vimeo.com/user442745

GH2 Pictures
http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/4222674355/albums

Ironically the G5 can be used without a mechanical shutter. However, the new Panasonic FZ200 actually has a mechanical shutter and it cannot be disabled.
--
GH2, GF1, & ZS3 Sample movies
http://www.youtube.com/user/mpgxsvcd#play/uploads

GH2 Setup Walk through
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uROQbbiiO2I

http://vimeo.com/user442745

GH2 Pictures
http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/4222674355/albums

Big Ga said:

Vaughan Williams said:

the manual says:

Click to expand...

Thanks for that.

Casual side by side shooting normal v silent doesn't seem to show much obvious difference in the JPGS, but I haven't had a chance to do any real testing, plus I'd like to look at the RAW file to be certain, however I really dont have time at the moment and don't want to be mucking about with Silkypix or whatever is shipped with the camera. I'll have to wait for the next ACR version to appear before I can work on the files.

Click to expand...

So you've got one as well! LL offer?

I'm in the same boat - can't be bothered with Silkypix so shooting Raw + Jpg until support in LR4.

Big Ga said:

However in the next few days, I have a photo trip coming up, and I would like to take the G5 and 45-175x to save weight for the walking bits, and if the silent shutter mode helps/avoids the occasional double stroke effect, then I'll use it. But I don't want to do this if there is any significant degradation in any aspect of IQ for future (possible severe) PP work. These would be landscape images, so I'm not particularly concerned at this moment in any movement issues, but one thing I'd like to know NOW is whether a base ISO shot at 'normal' shutter speeds is going to give a 100% equivalent file (in terms of sensor output) if taken in silent mode rather than the normal shuttered one.

Click to expand...

Doesn't look as if you'll get a real answer before your trip. It would require someone who can go to the trouble of setting up comparative shots and processing in Silkypix.

--
Vaughan
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/jvwpc/

Vaughan Williams said:

• If a subject is moving or your hands are shaking, the subject may appear distorted on the picture taken. Use of a tripod is recommended.

Click to expand...

Very creative thinking by Panny here. If your subject is moving, causing a distorted image, resolve it by... firmly pinning your subject to a tripod. And if that's not enough, try super-glue.

Hehe, ok couldn't resist... sorry folks... enjoy!

--
Regards,
Roger

mpgxsvcd said:

This information is inaccurate. Global Electronic shutters are so expensive that they cannot be implemented in consumer cameras yet.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the correction, I had assumed a global shutter in the Nikon from some web pages that said so when I was searching. That will teach me to believe anything I see on the Internet.

mpgxsvcd said:

No current consumer camera has a global electronic shutter.

Click to expand...

That's what I originally wrote, then had a re-think and deleted it to add the erroneous Nikon info.

I did discover some specialised global shutter cameras on the Internet but were weird, expensive and exotic.

As a side note, I was originally intending to wait until M4/3 employed a global shutter before I bought in, then realised that it could be a very long wait indeed and may not live that long, so bought the E-PL1. Naturally I was dismayed by the noise and vibration of the focal plane shutter and realise that it is the cause of all the weird image doubling and shake problems people see with various bodies at a select range of shutter speeds.

The other day I dug out my old film SLR Nikon N8008s (F801s) to check something and even though it has a larger focal plane shutter that makes noise, I could not feel any vibration of the body. So an old suggestion of mine to epoxy glue a brick to an M4/3 body to remove the shutter shake problems is still valid - though I might experiment with steel or lead plates screwed to the tripod hole because the brick solution may not fit my jacket pocket so well.

Regards............. Guy

mpgxsvcd said:

Ironically the G5 can be used without a mechanical shutter. However, the new Panasonic FZ200 actually has a mechanical shutter and it cannot be disabled.

Click to expand...

there are different types of mechanical shutters - those in fixed lens cameras (like P&S) are different (may be w/ few exceptions) - leaf shutters

Vaughan Williams said:

So you've got one as well!

Click to expand...

Yes. I have some great lenses, so being able to (theoretically) shoot silently made it a sensible purchase, as I can get rid of the Canon G1x now.

Vaughan Williams said:

I'm in the same boat - can't be bothered with Silkypix so shooting Raw + Jpg until support in LR4.

Click to expand...

Vaughan Williams said:

Doesn't look as if you'll get a real answer before your trip. It would require someone who can go to the trouble of setting up comparative shots and processing in Silkypix.

Click to expand...

Well, I did see some murmur somewhere that the newest ACR/DNG thingamybob isn't far away, and G5 support is in there, so hopefully not long now.

Its funny, I've seen people give Panny a hard time for taking ages to get stuff into the shops, but the G5 almost seems to have got into the hands of the unwashed massed TOO soon

Back to the whole silent shooting thing. It amazes me that something so new and significant (at least to some) doesn't seem to be tested (properly) by the review sites. Bizarre.
Cheers
G.

Big Ga said:

Back to the whole silent shooting thing. It amazes me that something so new and significant (at least to some) doesn't seem to be tested (properly) by the review sites. Bizarre.

Click to expand...

Their excuse is perhaps this is not new. It's standard issue with P&S so potential buyers should know how this is like in operation, i.e. not disturbing other people or animals. And until the more serious reviewers can publish the analysis of RAW images in a full review there is nothing much to say.

tt321 said:

Big Ga said:

Back to the whole silent shooting thing. It amazes me that something so new and significant (at least to some) doesn't seem to be tested (properly) by the review sites. Bizarre.

Click to expand...

Their excuse is perhaps this is not new. It's standard issue with P&S so potential buyers should know how this is like in operation,

Click to expand...

True, but then live view has been standard issue with P&S cameras for just as long, yet we don't see this being ignored in reviews for DSLRs do we?
(I await comments on the famous/notorious Phil Askey E330 quote .... ;-) )

Big Ga said:

Hi Folks,

Has anyone worked out or found out any solid information on the totally silent shooting mode that the G5 has?

What are the real life downsides to using this method on this particular camera (there must be some else they wouldn't bother with a mechanical shutter in there!).

Click to expand...

As a quick followup for anyone interested, now that I can develop G5 RAW files in Lightroom, I'm not seeing any significant differences in shuttered v electronic shutter mode for normal, daylight, base ISO shooting, which is good news. There is perhaps the most subtle of exposure differences, or perhaps a tiny smidge of DR variation, but for normal daylight shooting, I can't yet see any reason to choose one over the other for IQ reasons. Good news.

PS - the harsh clipping of G5 highlights does seem to be a JPG thing. RAW development is are a lot smoother.

Many high-speed motion cameras like those of Photron, Phantom and Fastec have fully electronic non-mechanical global shutters and they are expensive, but can be purchased for far less than $300,000. My lab has a couple Photrons that only cost about $45,000 each, can image at up to 500,000 frames per second and can stop action with an adjustable shutter speed. The downside is they are low resolution (1024 x 1024) and often monochrome because they need so much light. I suspect the cost of these cameras is high because of the need for lots of very fast memory, perhaps the sensor, and the limited market, rather than the electronic shutter which I imagine could be manufactured cheaply as many electronic components. But then, I am just guessing.