Canon Eos 7D or Sony A77

...like in here:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=42253671

at ISO 6400 EVF's image is artificially lightened, almost to an absurd
level, but... of what use it might be if the actual rendering of a scene
is so noisy and grainy that it is not possible to focus at it even approx.
to say nothing about focusing critically? What we get is a pointillist
pretense of being a real scene, but not even remotely as good as a
real Signac:
The point is that you see much better what you're pointing your camera at, rather than having to guess for about 20 minutes. ;)

You can always turn off the autogain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnqUzkls4jE&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZiFjsV8MxA&list=UUA1ZngtB9928aQxhX7EXEjw&index=4&feature=plcp
 
This being a Canon Forum, you are going to get people advising you go for Canon.

The 7D is 3 years old now and still wins best of review for it's class, what more needs to be said.
Three years old is really getting too old don't you think?
No.
--
Alastair
http://anorcross.smugmug.com
Equipment in profile

 
This being a Canon Forum, you are going to get people advising you go for Canon.

The 7D is 3 years old now and still wins best of review for it's class, what more needs to be said.
Three years old is really getting too old don't you think?
No.
Good answer if you like using old, no, correction, ancient gear! But Sony isn't much better with its full frame camera, the Sony A900 is also getting into the "ancient" category, although the new full frame Sony A99 is rumoured to be released shortly with all the latest bells and whistles!
 
While the light "loss" is true, the sensor has a small head start to make up for most of that with equal physical and visual exposures at a given output size. The comparison above does not take different visual (brightness, WB etc.), physical (in part due to understated ISO values compared to the 7D, as noted by Dpreview too) and different output size into account.
I somehow don't think you'll be able to convince Canon users that the A77 is a good "low light" camera"! Even if DPR made adjustments for the points you make, I think the 7D would still come out well ahead in the low-light comparisons!

However, the great things about the A77 are its excellent "bright light" capability, its huge "cropping power" and the large amount of extra fine detail captured in its 24mp APS-C images. Also, the fact that it even has ISO 50 is a good feature.

Cheers
Rob
http://www.robsphotography.co.nz/crop-factor-advantage-7D-5DIII.html
Comparison of pixel size, reach etc of the 7D with the 5DIII
 
This being a Canon Forum, you are going to get people advising you go for Canon.

The 7D is 3 years old now and still wins best of review for it's class, what more needs to be said.
Three years old is really getting too old don't you think?
No.
Good answer if you like using old, no, correction, ancient gear! But Sony isn't much better with its full frame camera, the Sony A900 is also getting into the "ancient" category, although the new full frame Sony A99 is rumoured to be released shortly with all the latest bells and whistles!
What I like using is gear that takes great pictures. The 7D does that. Only an idiot, no, correction, complete moron, would dismiss an excellent camera because it's been out for three years.

--
Alastair
http://anorcross.smugmug.com
Equipment in profile

 
yes, the ability to frame in low light is a definite plus; however, a
sheer inability to focus in low light negates all other advantages
for me - in a big way :( !!

btw. thanks for the YT links - I do know abt. adjusting EVF brightness,
although what it is being said there is almost inaudible so I'm not sure
what actually was demonstrated??

somehow I can't find a good/quick way to switch ON/OFF the option of
simulating effects of exposure's settings on LCD/EVF without digging
into menus each time
:(,

jpr2
...like in here:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=42253671

at ISO 6400 EVF's image is artificially lightened, almost to an absurd
level, but... of what use it might be if the actual rendering of a scene
is so noisy and grainy that it is not possible to focus at it even approx.
to say nothing about focusing critically? What we get is a pointillist
pretense of being a real scene, but not even remotely as good as a
real Signac:
The point is that you see much better what you're pointing your camera at, rather than having to guess for about 20 minutes. ;)

You can always turn off the autogain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnqUzkls4jE&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZiFjsV8MxA&list=UUA1ZngtB9928aQxhX7EXEjw&index=4&feature=plcp
--
~
street candids (non-interactive):
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157609618638319/
music and dance:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157600341265280/
B&W:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157623306407882/
wildlife & macro:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157600341377106/
interactive street:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157623181919323/

Comments and critique are always welcome!
~
 
  • OVF vs. EVF : supposedly the best OLED VF industry has to offer from Sony has still lots and lots to cover before getting even close to (not an industry best) OVF of 7d, esp. in a really low light ;
That's a biggie in my book too.

Here's a few shots from a German forum showing the difference between an EVF (the a77) and an OVF (the older A580). Unfortunately, direct linking doesn't seem to work, so you'll need to open the URL in another tab or such ...

First, the scene that was photographed ...
www.bilder-space.de/bilder/fdc0a8-1319560607.jpg

Second is a shot of the A77's viewfinder through the eyepiece with a Fuji F30 ...
www.bilder-space.de/bilder/4f9e5a-1319561332.jpg

And another shot of the A77's viewfinder through the eyepiece ...
www.bilder-space.de/bilder/1adcef-1319561430.jpg

And finally, how the scene looks through the optical viewfinder of the A580 ...
www.bilder-space.de/bilder/9a37fe-1319562316.jpg

I think you'd have to be relying on brail to not find that difference significant. The a77 is all blown whites and crushed blacks compared to the OVF. It just looks so much worse - even though it's about as good as EVF's get at the moment. Couple that with the burst rate slideshow and it really is a bit compromised unfortunately - just a limitation of the SLT technology at the moment.
 
Yes you are, unless you are blind with one eye.
You are effectively blind on one eye in low light for some time after using the EVF - it takes about 20 minutes to regain the same level of sight on the eye that was used with the EVF! So at night time EVF is a really dangerous contraption and you must not move for that 20 minutes if you are in an area where you need to be able to see with both eyes. If you are in your cozy bed at that time it doesn't matter but if you are on a hike in the mountains and you wanted to photograph star trails or similar subjects then you are screwed!
--
regards
Karl Günter Wünsch
 
No I didn't suggest that. I stated a fact, which you gave a context that I didn't.
You ignored the context I gave in the first place! So it's you who is grossly out of line here!
If you actually read more carefully rather than spouting nonsense, you'd understand that framing (and obviously focus) is important after catching the subject in the first frame. Timing of an "event" which you kept talking about (somewhere after the first frame apparently...) much less so, since you're dependent on the fire rate of the camera.
Which is exactly the problem, you don't seem to get it, the subjects I talk about are not moving at a constant pace, they are accelerating or decelerating at various intensities, you must have live view to be able to track these subjects while shooting the series. There is no amount of practice that could compensate for the lack of live view while shooting the series!
Another assumption. Maybe it does for you, but it will not for me and it does not .
Have you ever shot fast moving action? I'm still willing to bet that you never ever went near a race track or a bird colony or any other venue where the subjects may require proper tracking ability!
--
regards
Karl Günter Wünsch
 
Some very interesting comparisons here that really highlight the weaknesses of the Sony EVF.

Thanks for posting, Schmegg!
  • OVF vs. EVF : supposedly the best OLED VF industry has to offer from Sony has still lots and lots to cover before getting even close to (not an industry best) OVF of 7d, esp. in a really low light ;
That's a biggie in my book too.

Here's a few shots from a German forum showing the difference between an EVF (the a77) and an OVF (the older A580). Unfortunately, direct linking doesn't seem to work, so you'll need to open the URL in another tab or such ...

First, the scene that was photographed ...
www.bilder-space.de/bilder/fdc0a8-1319560607.jpg

Second is a shot of the A77's viewfinder through the eyepiece with a Fuji F30 ...
www.bilder-space.de/bilder/4f9e5a-1319561332.jpg

And another shot of the A77's viewfinder through the eyepiece ...
www.bilder-space.de/bilder/1adcef-1319561430.jpg

And finally, how the scene looks through the optical viewfinder of the A580 ...
www.bilder-space.de/bilder/9a37fe-1319562316.jpg

I think you'd have to be relying on brail to not find that difference significant. The a77 is all blown whites and crushed blacks compared to the OVF. It just looks so much worse - even though it's about as good as EVF's get at the moment. Couple that with the burst rate slideshow and it really is a bit compromised unfortunately - just a limitation of the SLT technology at the moment.
--
Yogi

When you get down to the nuts and bolts of photography, the results depend on the 'nut' behind the camera!

See the 'Gear List' in my 'Profile' for my current equipment.

Check out WilbaW's beginner FAQs at - http://snipurl.com/RebelFAQ
 
I think you'd have to be relying on brail to not find that difference significant.
It even is worse than shown, the viewfinder images were taken with a small sensor camera - which itself has limited dynamic range - and these already compromised views blow the viewfinder of the A77 out of the water... What good is a viewfinder that neither shows the scene in real time and doesn't manage to convey the important areas of the resulting photo. On an optical viewfinder you can learn how to judge the scene and you'll eventually know how to work around the limitation of only having a dynamic range of 10-12 EV in the final photo - but on the EVF you simply have no chance whatsoever!

--
regards
Karl Günter Wünsch
 
I would be interested to know how many people commenting on this thread have actually used the A77 and its apparently awful EVF.

I love Canon, always have. I started with a 350D and moved to a 50D but with the imminent arrival of my first child I felt an upgrade was justified. The obvious choice was the 7D - my dad has one and I like it a lot.

But, it is quite an old camera now - particularly the sensor technology and there were certain features of the A77 that I thought I would make full use of - things like focus peeking and on paper the EVF had certain advantages as well as disadvantages. For example, an overlay of the histogram and the fact the the DoF preview button can be set to show exactly what the actual shot will look like, thus somewhat mitigating the low light issues.

It wasn't an easy decision, I had a few lenses and as I say I am (or at least was) a Canon shooter but I took the decision to move to the A77.

I can't say whether I would be happy or not with a 7D as I didn't go that route but having used my dad's I don't think I would have minded having it.

What I can tell you is that I am delighted with my A77 - it really is a lovely lovely tool to use. I get far more keepers with my A77 than I ever got with my 50D and I enjoy using it far more. Now I am used to the layout of the buttons etc the handling is first class.

To say the EVF doesn't display in real time is misleading. It does except in high speed shooting mode. In normal lighting conditions, when concentrating on the composition of the shot, the subject etc I forget I'm looking at an EVF.

In low light, yes it is noticeable but not so as to be off-putting and bear in mind you are seeing what the sensor sees and what it will capture. If it is too dark to see - unless you are using flash - the shot will be underexposed.

To the OP - to be fair I don't do much BIF or sports where high FPS matters so can't comment on high much of an issue the fact that you see slightly delayed shots, not a real time view at 8 or 12 FPS but remember on the 7D the mirror keeps moving up so you lose sight of what you are shooting also. Swings and roundabouts.

I would seriously suggest trying both systems - do try the 'kit' 16-50mm with the A77 - it is a special lens. Play with the EVF, play with the 7D and all its features. Heft them in your hand see which feels good and make your decision from there.

I don't think you'll be disappointed with either and certainly don't be put off the A77 by some of the comments on here about the EVF from people who, if they have seen it at all, have given it a cursary glance.

Apologies for the length of this reply and please try not to label me a Sony fanboi as that I am not - I am just trying to offer (possibly some what in vain) a balanced opinion of someone who has used both cameras. If I could afford a 5D mk III to complement my A77 I'd go out and buy one tomorrow and I love my S90 and would kill for a G1X and would take a S100 over the RX100

Cheers

Danny B
--
Shoot lots...

http://www.dannybowerphotography.co.uk
 
I would be interested to know how many people commenting on this thread have actually used the A77 and its apparently awful EVF.

I love Canon, always have. I started with a 350D and moved to a 50D but with the imminent arrival of my first child I felt an upgrade was justified. The obvious choice was the 7D - my dad has one and I like it a lot.

But, it is quite an old camera now -
Good post, but remember you mustn't mention the 7D's age on this forum, it still takes excellent pictures and doesn't need to be replaced any time soon!

particularly the sensor technology and there were certain features of the A77 that I thought I would make full use of - things like focus peeking and on paper the EVF had certain advantages as well as disadvantages. For example, an overlay of the histogram and the fact the the DoF preview button can be set to show exactly what the actual shot will look like, thus somewhat mitigating the low light issues.
 
To the OP - to be fair I don't do much BIF or sports where high FPS matters so can't comment on high much of an issue the fact that you see slightly delayed shots, not a real time view at 8 or 12 FPS but remember on the 7D the mirror keeps moving up so you lose sight of what you are shooting also.
don't you think that by your own statement this alone disqualifies you
from giving advice on fast action shooting? esp. (again by your own
words) as you didn't go the 7d route??
I don't think you'll be disappointed with either and certainly don't be put off the A77 by some of the comments on here about the EVF from people who, if they have seen it at all, have given it a cursary glance.
cursory glance?? not exactly true - during three years of use I've shot
over 90 thousand RAWs with 7d; and since early 2012 another 10
thousand RAWs using the so called superior OLED EVF from Sony, so
I'm quite well familiar with all its limitations :P,

OTOH - to be not accused of one-sided stance - I'm very highly impressed
by that Sony's 24 Mpx sensor; yes, 7d's one is already very, very good,
indeed Sony seems to be a top leader with sensors now,

jpr2
--
~
street candids (non-interactive):
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157609618638319/
music and dance:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157600341265280/
B&W:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157623306407882/
wildlife & macro:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157600341377106/
interactive street:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157623181919323/

Comments and critique are always welcome!
~
 
I don't think you'll be disappointed with either and certainly don't be put off the A77 by some of the comments on here about the EVF from people who, if they have seen it at all, have given it a cursary glance.
cursory glance?? not exactly true - during three years of use I've shot
over 90 thousand RAWs with 7d; and since early 2012 another 10
thousand RAWs using the so called superior OLED EVF from Sony, so
I'm quite well familiar with all its limitations :P,

jpr2
--
~
street candids (non-interactive):
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157609618638319/
music and dance:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157600341265280/
B&W:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157623306407882/
wildlife & macro:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157600341377106/
interactive street:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157623181919323/

Comments and critique are always welcome!
~
Re: the first point - that is exactly why I raised it as the fact and its disclosure are relevant and important given the context of the OP's question. However I stand by the fact that people remain silent on the fact that on a mirrored camera it (the mirror) keeps flipping out of the way thus interrupting vision so you don't have a full real time track of what's going on either.

Re: the second point - I am not doubting your credentials at all but there will be plenty of respondees (is that a word?!) who have commented but haven't used.

Cheers

Danny B
--
Shoot lots...

http://www.dannybowerphotography.co.uk
 
This being a Canon Forum, you are going to get people advising you go for Canon.

The 7D is 3 years old now and still wins best of review for it's class, what more needs to be said.
Three years old is really getting too old don't you think?
No.
Good answer if you like using old, no, correction, ancient gear! But Sony isn't much better with its full frame camera, the Sony A900 is also getting into the "ancient" category, although the new full frame Sony A99 is rumoured to be released shortly with all the latest bells and whistles!
What I like using is gear that takes great pictures. The 7D does that.
Hi Alastair, lighten up a bit, I was only kidding you know!! I realise that even an ancient camera can still take great pictures because I actually use one myself, that is, the full frame Sony A900. I would be happy to use the A900 for a few more years because it produces such superb results!

However, from a buyer's perspective there have been many threads about both the 7D and the A900 that are speculating on when the replacements are due and advising people to wait and see what the new model has to offer before buying a 3-year old camera! Any manufacturer of electronics / cameras knows that 3 years is getting a bit old and that sales will probably pick up if a new model is introduced.

Cheers
Rob
http://www.robsphotography.co.nz/Sony-A900.html
Examples of great clarity and "cropping power" of A900 images
--
Alastair
http://anorcross.smugmug.com
Equipment in profile

 
Re: the first point - that is exactly why I raised it as the fact and its disclosure are relevant and important given the context of the OP's question. However I stand by the fact that people remain silent on the fact that on a mirrored camera it (the mirror) keeps flipping out of the way thus interrupting vision so you don't have a full real time track of what's going on either.
...and physiology of human vision too - I can assure you that at 8 fps
obstruction by the 7d's mirror flapping is non existing, and it is actually
indistinguishable from the brief pauses caused by 12 fps Sony technology,
simply put we do not see them at all;

however, the real difference stems from the relative efficiencies of actual
subject tracking by 7d vs. a77 - this is a crux of the matter in fast
action shooting comparisons of both;

one other factor, not yet mentioned by anyone here - the machine
gun noise of either: here Sony wins hands down, although it is still
pretty noisy - far noisier than I like :); we would need to wait for purely
electronic shutters advance from their teething pains - long way to
go yet, perhaps longer than that of EVF streamlining - before a true
noiseless shutter will start to make inroads in high-end systems,

jpr2
--
~
street candids (non-interactive):
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157609618638319/
music and dance:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157600341265280/
B&W:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157623306407882/
wildlife & macro:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157600341377106/
interactive street:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157623181919323/

Comments and critique are always welcome!
~
 
I would be interested to know how many people commenting on this thread have actually used the A77 and its apparently awful EVF.
I have given the horrid thing a try! I hated every single moment I had to look at this OLED abomination!
To say the EVF doesn't display in real time is misleading. It does except in high speed shooting mode. In normal lighting conditions, when concentrating on the composition of the shot, the subject etc I forget I'm looking at an EVF.
I can't. It's lagging sufficiently behind reality to miss the important moments!
In low light, yes it is noticeable but not so as to be off-putting and bear in mind you are seeing what the sensor sees and what it will capture.
Again a very misleading comment. You are seeing far less than what the sensor sees because of the severely limited dynamic range of the OLED - it has so little capability to display dynamic range and the sensor in video mode doesn't provide as much dynamic range as you would like. The examples shown here do tell the whole story, for framing in situations where dynamic range exceeds 5-6 EV it's practically useless!
To the OP - to be fair I don't do much BIF or sports where high FPS matters so can't comment on high much of an issue the fact that you see slightly delayed shots, not a real time view at 8 or 12 FPS but remember on the 7D the mirror keeps moving up so you lose sight of what you are shooting also. Swings and roundabouts.
You obviously have no clue about this! The mirror returns fast and for long enough to allow perfect tracking of the subject because it provides a fully live view without any lag - on the A77 you see nothing at all that would help you in tracking a moving subject, even the lag the viewfinder introduces when not in slideshow mode is sufficient to lose track of your subject if it does move - it is very disorientating to notice the subject turning and only seeing this turn 0.05 or 0.1 seconds later, especially on subjects where you know that they will change direction at a specific position relative to you! Face it, for moving subjects the EVF is pure garbage!

--
regards
Karl Günter Wünsch
 
  • OVF vs. EVF : supposedly the best OLED VF industry has to offer from Sony has still lots and lots to cover before getting even close to (not an industry best) OVF of 7d, esp. in a really low light ;
That's a biggie in my book too.

Here's a few shots from a German forum showing the difference between an EVF (the a77) and an OVF (the older A580). Unfortunately, direct linking doesn't seem to work, so you'll need to open the URL in another tab or such ...

First, the scene that was photographed ...
www.bilder-space.de/bilder/fdc0a8-1319560607.jpg

Second is a shot of the A77's viewfinder through the eyepiece with a Fuji F30 ...
www.bilder-space.de/bilder/4f9e5a-1319561332.jpg

And another shot of the A77's viewfinder through the eyepiece ...
www.bilder-space.de/bilder/1adcef-1319561430.jpg

And finally, how the scene looks through the optical viewfinder of the A580 ...
www.bilder-space.de/bilder/9a37fe-1319562316.jpg

I think you'd have to be relying on brail to not find that difference significant. The a77 is all blown whites and crushed blacks compared to the OVF. It just looks so much worse - even though it's about as good as EVF's get at the moment. Couple that with the burst rate slideshow and it really is a bit compromised unfortunately - just a limitation of the SLT technology at the moment.
Hasn't anyone noticed that the A77's lens Aperture has been stopped down to F/14 in this picture?. The A77's EVF is a live view of the scene, taking into account the shooting parameters chosen.

As a fairer comparison, I suggest an image of the A580's OVF after the DOF Preview button has been pressed. I bet a pretty DIM view of the scene will be presented when the Aperture has been stopped down to F/14.
 
Hasn't anyone noticed that the A77's lens Aperture has been stopped down to F/14 in this picture?.
It's irrelevant.
The A77's EVF is a live view of the scene, taking into account the shooting parameters chosen.
Wrong again. The chosen aperture is not applied because the DOF preview button is not pressed - if the camera would apply the aperture the autofocus would fail because it is physically limited to apertures of f/5.6 or better!

It also doesn't change anything to the inability of the EVF to show enough of the scene!

--
regards
Karl Günter Wünsch
 

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