Sony should learn from Nikon about ISO

phiri said:

Again the NEX is exposed longer than the Nikon. S hard to tell but in all fairness e NEX 7 has to score better than this entry level camera otherwise it wont bode well for the hier priced camera

Click to expand...

Nonsense. That's not it how works in the camera world. The prices are not determined by the image quality, but by other factors (like build quality, features, etc,). If you use that argument, then shame on Nikon that their $1600 D300s scored lower than their entry-level D5000, and Pentax k-7 definitely had worse IQ than Kx, and 7D is probably at best equal (or worse) than Canon T2i.

However, that's not how it works. The higher end cameras don't necessarily have better image quality. There are other reasons why these cameras are more expensive.

The same was also true in film days, obviously. ... You don't know what you are talking about.

ET2 said:

phiri said:

Again the NEX is exposed longer than the Nikon. S hard to tell but in all fairness e NEX 7 has to score better than this entry level camera otherwise it wont bode well for the hier priced camera

Click to expand...

Nonsense. That's not it how works in the camera world. The prices are not determined by the image quality, but by other factors (like build quality, features, etc,). If you use that argument, then shame on Nikon that their $1600 D300s scored lower than their entry-level D5000, and Pentax k-7 definitely had worse IQ than Kx, and 7D is probably at best equal (or worse) than Canon T2i.

However, that's not how it works. The higher end cameras don't necessarily have better image quality. There are other reasons why these cameras are more expensive.

The same was also true in film days, obviously. ... You don't know what you are talking about.

Click to expand...

True with different sensor generations but here we are talking of the same generation so that can be a terrible mistake. You expect future generation of APS-C sensors to be better than the current FF sensors but it would make sense to experience that within the same sensor generation
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/39182144@N03/

They just don't see your photos =)

phiri said:

True with different sensor generations but here we are talking of the same generation so that can be a terrible mistake.

Click to expand...

Why am I wasting time with this guy? D300s was newer than D90 but scored lower. Image quality and prices have absolutely nothing to do with each other in still camera world. D800 scored higher than D4. Shame on Nikon .. huh? But obviously you don't know what you are babbling about. Higher end cameras are pricey for other reasons, not because they have the better image quality. And the same was the case in film cameras, when all cameras, lower-end and higher end, had the same IQ, depending on the film used.

phiri said:

You know well as I do that in order to maximise DR you have to shoot raw and and do some PP. For the most first time DSLR users, PP is a scary thing.

Click to expand...

Surely you heard of DRO or in Nikon's case, D-lighting. Surely you're aware of what it does. Lifting shadows. This is where read noise and thus sensor DR become important, beyond simple contrast curves. It's exactly why you sometims see complaints about shadow noise at low ISO in the 1 series forum as it has the same handicap, exaggerated by the smaller sensor. Especially when entry level users are unaware of what their camera does in auto modes with things like D-lighting in high contrast scenes, these things count.

TrojMacReady said:

phiri said:

You know well as I do that in order to maximise DR you have to shoot raw and and do some PP. For the most first time DSLR users, PP is a scary thing.

Click to expand...

Surely you heard of DRO or in Nikon's case, D-lighting. Surely you're aware of what it does. Lifting shadows. This is where read noise and thus sensor DR become important, beyond simple contrast curves. It's exactly why you sometims see complaints about shadow noise at low ISO in the 1 series forum as it has the same handicap, exaggerated by the smaller sensor.

Click to expand...

I have used J1 extensively and I can say that while the DR is limiting, it is not for mos of the situations. But sure Sony sensors have better DR, and to refuse that will be total stupidity
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/39182144@N03/

Insecure people spend most of their forum time in forums from other brands, arguing about suggested flaws in cameras they never used and/or will never use, to feel better about their own brand, which they proclaim they will never leave.

Right, Dean?

phiri said:

TrojMacReady said:

phiri said:

You know well as I do that in order to maximise DR you have to shoot raw and and do some PP. For the most first time DSLR users, PP is a scary thing.

Click to expand...

Surely you heard of DRO or in Nikon's case, D-lighting. Surely you're aware of what it does. Lifting shadows. This is where read noise and thus sensor DR become important, beyond simple contrast curves. It's exactly why you sometims see complaints about shadow noise at low ISO in the 1 series forum as it has the same handicap, exaggerated by the smaller sensor.

Click to expand...

I have used J1 extensively and I can say that while the DR is limiting, it is not for mos of the situations. But sure Sony sensors have better DR, and to refuse that will be total stupidity

Click to expand...

So you agree then, it may not bother you in most situations, but it can still bother entry level users, even if they never explore the depths of RAW.

phiri said:

Again the NEX is exposed longer than the Nikon. S hard to tell but in all fairness e NEX 7 has to score better than this entry level camera otherwise it wont bode well for the hier priced camera

Click to expand...

Nonsense. People buy the more expensive cameras for the features they offer and people will buy the Nex 7 or (A65/77) over the D3200 for this reason.

By your logic I should have bought the A65 ant not the A77. Now an even cheaper 24mp camera is out I should have bought that. This is ridiculous.

TrojMacReady said:

phiri said:

TrojMacReady said:

phiri said:

You know well as I do that in order to maximise DR you have to shoot raw and and do some PP. For the most first time DSLR users, PP is a scary thing.

Click to expand...

Surely you heard of DRO or in Nikon's case, D-lighting. Surely you're aware of what it does. Lifting shadows. This is where read noise and thus sensor DR become important, beyond simple contrast curves. It's exactly why you sometims see complaints about shadow noise at low ISO in the 1 series forum as it has the same handicap, exaggerated by the smaller sensor.

Click to expand...

I have used J1 extensively and I can say that while the DR is limiting, it is not for mos of the situations. But sure Sony sensors have better DR, and to refuse that will be total stupidity

Click to expand...

So you agree then, it may not bother you in most situations, but it can still bother entry level users, even if they never explore the depths of RAW.

Click to expand...

I may politely disagree here. My first DSLR was a D40 and to tell you the truth it takes a little bit of time to learn how to make proper exposures. Again also most of those will be viewing their photos on facebook and the size will be small eliminating most of the noise issues. There is one difference that I have noted with mirrorless cameras. Most of those buying and making posts on DPR are those that are using mirrorless as alternatives to their bulky DSLRs. They know what they should have and that makes a difference. My wife uses her J1 and really cares less when the part of the photo that is not the main subject is not properly exposed. That is really common with many firts time DSLR users
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/39182144@N03/

ET2 wrote:

Higher end cameras are pricey for other reasons, not because they have the better image quality. And the same was the case in film cameras, when all cameras, lower-end and higher end, had the same IQ, depending on the film used.

Exactly. Why buy an Nikon F4 when a Nikon FE would do? Or an Olympus OM4 when an OM10 would do?

Dave Oddie said:

phiri said:

Again the NEX is exposed longer than the Nikon. S hard to tell but in all fairness e NEX 7 has to score better than this entry level camera otherwise it wont bode well for the hier priced camera

Click to expand...

Nonsense. People buy the more expensive cameras for the features they offer and people will buy the Nex 7 or (A65/77) over the D3200 for this reason.

By your logic I should have bought the A65 ant not the A77. Now an even cheaper 24mp camera is out I should have bought that. This is ridiculous.

Click to expand...

Imagine all those interested in Canon 7D's coming home with -gasp- 550D's because they're atleast as good for less than half the price! Poor 7D's stayed on the shelves ever since.

phiri said:

TrojMacReady said:

phiri said:

TrojMacReady said:

phiri said:

You know well as I do that in order to maximise DR you have to shoot raw and and do some PP. For the most first time DSLR users, PP is a scary thing.

Click to expand...

Surely you heard of DRO or in Nikon's case, D-lighting. Surely you're aware of what it does. Lifting shadows. This is where read noise and thus sensor DR become important, beyond simple contrast curves. It's exactly why you sometims see complaints about shadow noise at low ISO in the 1 series forum as it has the same handicap, exaggerated by the smaller sensor.

Click to expand...

I have used J1 extensively and I can say that while the DR is limiting, it is not for mos of the situations. But sure Sony sensors have better DR, and to refuse that will be total stupidity

Click to expand...

So you agree then, it may not bother you in most situations, but it can still bother entry level users, even if they never explore the depths of RAW.

Click to expand...

I may politely disagree here.

Click to expand...

I feel anecdotal stuff coming up, which doesn't disprove anything I said above.

phiri said:

My first DSLR was a D40 and to tell you the truth it takes a little bit of time to learn how to make proper exposures.

Click to expand...

Yep, anecdotal and no relevance. Different camera, different times, different standards, your standards.

phiri said:

Again also most of those will be viewing their photos on facebook and the size will be small eliminating most of the noise issues.

Click to expand...

Anyone who's been around longer than today, should know that a substantial group of camera users, new or long time, inspects their images by looking at 100% "crops" (zoom in to max), regardless of the final purpose of these pictures. That's where the majority of IQ complaints in general stems from to begin with, legit or not.

TrojMacReady said:

Insecure people spend most of their forum time in forums from other brands, arguing about suggested flaws in cameras they never used and/or will never use, to feel better about their own brand, which they proclaim they will never leave.

Right, Dean?

Click to expand...

I use a Nikon D7000 with a Sony sensor in it. But to your question, the importance of a camera to me is at the bottom. I am not pro nor will I ever have time to do that even if I was given all the talent to be a super pro. It is something that I can not see myself doing as a main activity of my life. I am happy for those who make their living by clicking the shutter but that is not me. In essence, those are the ones who are supposed to be attached to their cameras. But surprisngly they are the ones who just buy whatever works for them. Whenever I take my camera out and take photos, I dont think even for a moment that I am shooting Nikon and feel good about that. I once said that if I started with Canon, which I almost did since my P&S before was Canon, I would have remained Canon, so is the same if I had started with Sony. I am not attached to my camera or Nikon for that matter. Lets face it, these companies are there for one purpose and that is to take as much money as they can from us. Actually they could be happy if you could just be giving them your money all the time. It therefore makes me wonder why someone would think Sony, Nikon, canon is your lover. Lets just use what we have and enjoy them
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/39182144@N03/

TrojMacReady said:

phiri said:

TrojMacReady said:

phiri said:

TrojMacReady said:

phiri said:

You know well as I do that in order to maximise DR you have to shoot raw and and do some PP. For the most first time DSLR users, PP is a scary thing.

Click to expand...

Surely you heard of DRO or in Nikon's case, D-lighting. Surely you're aware of what it does. Lifting shadows. This is where read noise and thus sensor DR become important, beyond simple contrast curves. It's exactly why you sometims see complaints about shadow noise at low ISO in the 1 series forum as it has the same handicap, exaggerated by the smaller sensor.

Click to expand...

I have used J1 extensively and I can say that while the DR is limiting, it is not for mos of the situations. But sure Sony sensors have better DR, and to refuse that will be total stupidity

Click to expand...

So you agree then, it may not bother you in most situations, but it can still bother entry level users, even if they never explore the depths of RAW.

Click to expand...

I may politely disagree here.

Click to expand...

I feel anecdotal stuff coming up, which doesn't disprove anything I said above.

TrojMacReady said:

My first DSLR was a D40 and to tell you the truth it takes a little bit of time to learn how to make proper exposures.

Click to expand...

Yep, anecdotal and no relevance. Different camera, different times, different standards, your standards.

TrojMacReady said:

Again also most of those will be viewing their photos on facebook and the size will be small eliminating most of the noise issues.

Click to expand...

Anyone who's been around longer than today, should know that a substantial group of camera users, new or long time, inspects their images by looking at 100% "crops" (zoom in to max), regardless of the final purpose of these pictures. That's where the majority of IQ complaints in general stems from to begin with, legit or not.

Click to expand...

I am not sure that you are right about the 100 percent. We are talking here about first time users and not PP nerds. Ther are so many people that take photos in Jpeg and just use it that way. If it was true what you are saying about DR for first time DSLR users, Canon would not have been selling as many cameras as they do. Let us be pragmatic here, how many first time DSLR users compares cameras based on DR? It never crossed my mind when I was buying my first DSLR. We should think that the majority of potential buyers who are not members of this forum discuss what we are discussing about here. Again, I dont think most of the sales people at camera stores talk about DR when comparing cameras. Most first time buyers will be influenced with what they see on Tv, what their friends are using or what the sales person recommends of course coupled with suitable price points
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/39182144@N03/

ET2 said:

Amateur Sony Shooter said:

Indeed K5 is amazing at high ISO. A57 is clearly almost 1 stop behind K5.

Click to expand...

Another idiotic post from over local village idiot. K-5 uses RAW NR starting from ISO 3200

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Publications/DxOMark-Reviews/DxOMark-review-for-Pentax-cameras

So one camera is using RAW NR, the other isn't, so you can't compare RAW. K-5 is not 2 stops better .. it's 1/2 stop better (due to SLT mirror).

K-5 jpegs even look worse

I am really starting to dislike this guy. He keeps making a fool out of himself.

Click to expand...

either im blind or i didnt see "k5" on that list u linked?? was the km the code name for the k5 back then? either way, even if sony shooter wrote something inaccurate, why call names? im 34 years old and just bought my first real camera last fathers day. ive said many times im new to photography with a background in physics which helps me understand certain things. is it ok for me to make a statement that isnt true? of course, and if im wrong i dont have any problem admitting it. im for the truth, not for making myself look good.

i think egos r running crazy on this forum with people who love to b right all the time. u got all these guys who love to point out others' flaws and incorrect statements. a lot of pi$$ing contests going on, and its a bit immature imo. i agree the k5 is much better than the a57, its my opinion, does that make me an idiot? id wager my education and intellect is above the vast majority in this forum, yet u dont see me bragging on every post or calling names. a guy whos into photography has an opinion that u dont agree with and hes the village idiot?

i also noticed u said k5 NR starts at 3200, yet that link never mentioned the k5, and the km it was about said NR starts at 400 and up. where do u get this 3200 iso figure? and if that link wasnt about the k5, why post it?

TrojMacReady said:

It's not the same sensor, simple as that. The NEX 7 has well over a stop extra DR, judging by the shadow junk at low ISO from the D3200.

The only thing they have in common is 24 MP.

Click to expand...

After all the arguing I did with you over this I now admit that you were rrrrrright.

--
Tom

Look at the picture, not the pixels

http://www.flickr.com/photos/63683676@N07/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/25301400@N00/

MaxIso said:

ET2 said:

Amateur Sony Shooter said:

Indeed K5 is amazing at high ISO. A57 is clearly almost 1 stop behind K5.

Click to expand...

Another idiotic post from over local village idiot. K-5 uses RAW NR starting from ISO 3200

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Publications/DxOMark-Reviews/DxOMark-review-for-Pentax-cameras

So one camera is using RAW NR, the other isn't, so you can't compare RAW. K-5 is not 2 stops better .. it's 1/2 stop better (due to SLT mirror).

K-5 jpegs even look worse

I am really starting to dislike this guy. He keeps making a fool out of himself.

Click to expand...

either im blind or i didnt see "k5" on that list u linked??

Click to expand...

The link was a general reference to all Pentax cameras. The K-5 page will show you exact location of the RAW NR on that model, that in K-5's case starts at ISO 3200

TrojMacReady said:

Insecure people spend most of their forum time in forums from other brands, arguing about suggested flaws in cameras they never used and/or will never use, to feel better about their own brand, which they proclaim they will never leave.

Right, Dean?

Click to expand...

this is why im proud to have no loyalty whatsoever. im 34, i have many cameras in the future to purchase and enjoy, ive spent a total of 200 or so on lenses for my sony, i am by no means stuck with sony. if i see something i like on a different brand, i will buy it, or not.

i dont get the fanboy mentality, i guess its pride getting in the way. some people want to think they made the good choice when others chose poorly. i think theres a serious lack of maturity in what i thought would be a mature audience.

phiri said:

TrojMacReady said:

phiri said:

TrojMacReady said:

phiri said:

TrojMacReady said:

phiri said:

You know well as I do that in order to maximise DR you have to shoot raw and and do some PP. For the most first time DSLR users, PP is a scary thing.

Click to expand...

Surely you heard of DRO or in Nikon's case, D-lighting. Surely you're aware of what it does. Lifting shadows. This is where read noise and thus sensor DR become important, beyond simple contrast curves. It's exactly why you sometims see complaints about shadow noise at low ISO in the 1 series forum as it has the same handicap, exaggerated by the smaller sensor.

Click to expand...

I have used J1 extensively and I can say that while the DR is limiting, it is not for mos of the situations. But sure Sony sensors have better DR, and to refuse that will be total stupidity

Click to expand...

So you agree then, it may not bother you in most situations, but it can still bother entry level users, even if they never explore the depths of RAW.

Click to expand...

I may politely disagree here.

Click to expand...

I feel anecdotal stuff coming up, which doesn't disprove anything I said above.

phiri said:

My first DSLR was a D40 and to tell you the truth it takes a little bit of time to learn how to make proper exposures.

Click to expand...

Yep, anecdotal and no relevance. Different camera, different times, different standards, your standards.

phiri said:

Again also most of those will be viewing their photos on facebook and the size will be small eliminating most of the noise issues.

Click to expand...

Anyone who's been around longer than today, should know that a substantial group of camera users, new or long time, inspects their images by looking at 100% "crops" (zoom in to max), regardless of the final purpose of these pictures. That's where the majority of IQ complaints in general stems from to begin with, legit or not.

Click to expand...

I am not sure that you are right about the 100 percent. We are talking here about first time users and not PP nerds.

Click to expand...

It doesn't take a "PP nerd" to look at pixel level output from files. Many image browsers allow you to do that with a click of a mouse, some popular ones even do it by default and heck, people even do it when reviewing on their cameras. And many newbies still do, see above. See the many posts with complaints from newbies.

phiri said:

Ther are so many people that take photos in Jpeg and just use it that way.

Click to expand...

Was I not talking about jpegs? Yes I was.

phiri said:

If it was true what you are saying about DR for first time DSLR users, Canon would not have been selling as many cameras as they do.

Click to expand...

A couple of big assumptions on your part leading to a fallacy

A) it assumes a substantial share of new Canon users who notice the shadow noise, know it's not the benchmark, that there is much better out there in this regard

B) that the above, after acknowledging there is better, will switch from/ decide against Canon for that reason after experiencing it (ignoring benefits from the system)

If many Bose product indeed offers less bang for the buck than many competing products, they wouldn't sell such huge amounts of them.

Wait...

phiri said:

Let us be pragmatic here, how many first time DSLR users compares cameras based on DR? It never crossed my mind when I was buying my first DSLR.

Click to expand...

You hit the nail on the head. Many may and many will notice flaws, but will not be aware of what they are actually seeing (in this case relatively high read noise limiting DR) and of what's also available on the market.