5D2 and 7D go surfing...

After comparing 1:1 crops between the 5D2 and 7D, I was more and more curious as why the IQ of the 5D2 is considerably better than the 7D, at least on my surfing shots with the 400mm 5.6. I had a feeling that the 400mm 5.6 has much better resolution on the 5D2 than the 7D, but could not find any resolution test confirming that.
It is a well understood phenomenon, see e.g., this, and the whole thread:
No, it's a very poorly understood phenomenon because people fail to understand what the h is in lp/ph.
To summarize:

5D2: 4127 vertical and 3423 horizontal LW/PH
7D: 2590 vertical and 2226 horizontal LW/PH
You get a 54-59% difference, which is a bit too high. I would expect around 40%, based on measurements of lenses of similar class.
I would expect 5-10% based on the surfing photos he posted. But I don't expect real world images to shatter misinterpretations of numerical data any time soon.
 
I have owned a 5d2 and a 7d. My 7d if I focus correctly and use the correct af settings is tact sharp on. Have you checked the following:
1. Checked the focus points using the cameras lcd display?
2. Made sure your lens is not front focusing (hard to tell by the images shown)
3. Turned off completely noise reduction i

on the 7d (even low makes things not as sharp.) Some people say if you shot raw this will make no difference. I tried it both ways and it does.

4. Check your af settings on the 7d (such as tracking priority vs shutter priority).
These aren't the issues. He's just making a mountain out of an ant hill.

How much difference is there really between 1189 and 1265? Not any difference in resolution that I can find. 1189 is more grainy, but it also has less exposure. On that point, brightness and contrast are huge in human perception of IQ apart from any of the things we typically measure and argue about (resolution; noise; etc). But Andy chose images with significant differences in exposure.

1174 and 1205 (especially) also received less exposure than any of the 5D2 shots. 1174 has plenty of detail and could be saved, but 1205's exposure killed detail in the face and made noise far worse than it should have been. I've got cleaner, more detailed ISO 800 shots than 1205!

Never the less, 1362 resolved less than 1189 as far as I can see. And 713 is as noisy in the ocean as 1189. So much for the FF advantage.

I can't help but laugh at all the "hurr durr FF is great!" comments. Erase Andy's memory, then show him his own shots while telling him they are from the same camera (5D2 or 7D). He wouldn't doubt you for a minute. Neither would anyone else in this thread. They would probably pick the brightest (i.e. best light/exposure) as the "best", but would correctly identify why. Along those lines give me a pair of the RAW files and 15 minutes and I could easily make one look head and shoulders above the other. They're decent shots but have plenty of room for processing.

But do we discuss exposure or processing? Nope. We discuss the smallest possible factor in final IQ. I feel like posting a face palm jpeg. But I would have to produce two, one from FF and one from crop, so that we could all argue about it.

That out of the way...Andy did make the point that FF vs. crop can be a small or nonexistent issue for reach. I've said this in the past. The crop reach advantage is not what it is sometimes made out to be. It's there if you have to crop even further and print large, particularly for a subject with less motion and more fine detail (i.e. bird feathers). But it's just not the end of the world.
 
After comparing 1:1 crops between the 5D2 and 7D, I was more and more curious as why the IQ of the 5D2 is considerably better than the 7D, at least on my surfing shots with the 400mm 5.6. I had a feeling that the 400mm 5.6 has much better resolution on the 5D2 than the 7D, but could not find any resolution test confirming that.
It is a well understood phenomenon, see e.g., this, and the whole thread:
No, it's a very poorly understood phenomenon because people fail to understand what the h is in lp/ph.
I still hope that you will understand it some day.
To summarize:

5D2: 4127 vertical and 3423 horizontal LW/PH
7D: 2590 vertical and 2226 horizontal LW/PH
You get a 54-59% difference, which is a bit too high. I would expect around 40%, based on measurements of lenses of similar class.
I would expect 5-10% based on the surfing photos he posted. But I don't expect real world images to shatter misinterpretations of numerical data any time soon.
His surfing photos actually confirm his IMATEST measurements. While one can wonder how well supported his lens was, and how well he achieved AF, those are other real life differences - cropping penalizes you more for all those small things.

What is taking you so long to sharpen his 7D crops? :)
 
Now that I'm back home...

Here is a 100% crop from one of my surfing photos. 7D, 300 f/4L IS, ISO 400, 1/1000s, f/6.3, out of camera JPEG with sharpness bumped up a notch. If your browser zoom is set to normal and you click twice you should see the same thing I see in PS at 100%. It's easily a match for any of Andy's 5D2 crops in terms of resolution and noise, and he was shooting RAW ISO 200.

Let me reiterate that I think the 5D2 is good for surfing. On the 7D side 8 fps is a big advantage. And if you have to crop even further than APS-C and print 16x20 the 7D will prove better. But great surfing shots can be done with either, and there's not much "reach" advantage if you're only cropping in to the APS-C center of the 5D2 and printing, say, 8x10 to 13x19. Surfing just doesn't push these sensors in terms of fine detail like a landscape would. AF is also not an issue with surfing. To an AF system surfing is slow and predictable.

But there is also no "huge" or "magic" advantage to FF. The differences in Andy's shots boil down to lighting and exposure more than anything else, plus the natural difference in sharpness between the formats. And they are not large as claimed.

It really amazes me how people overplay the differences between the two formats, and often fail to recognize the real reasons for differences between their comparison shots.



 
No, it's a very poorly understood phenomenon because people fail to understand what the h is in lp/ph.
I still hope that you will understand it some day.
I'm tired of explaining it to you.
I would expect 5-10% based on the surfing photos he posted. But I don't expect real world images to shatter misinterpretations of numerical data any time soon.
His surfing photos actually confirm his IMATEST measurements.
Uh huh...and where do you see a nearly 60% difference in those shots?
What is taking you so long to sharpen his 7D crops? :)
I just posted my own. JPEG, ISO 400, no sharpening other than the camera setting being just above neutral, and it's an easy match for any of his 5D2 crops.
 
Now that I'm back home...

Here is a 100% crop from one of my surfing photos. 7D, 300 f/4L IS, ISO 400, 1/1000s, f/6.3, out of camera JPEG with sharpness bumped up a notch. If your browser zoom is set to normal and you click twice you should see the same thing I see in PS at 100%. It's easily a match for any of Andy's 5D2 crops in terms of resolution and noise, and he was shooting RAW ISO 200.

Let me reiterate that I think the 5D2 is good for surfing. On the 7D side 8 fps is a big advantage. And if you have to crop even further than APS-C and print 16x20 the 7D will prove better. But great surfing shots can be done with either, and there's not much "reach" advantage if you're only cropping in to the APS-C center of the 5D2 and printing, say, 8x10 to 13x19. Surfing just doesn't push these sensors in terms of fine detail like a landscape would. AF is also not an issue with surfing. To an AF system surfing is slow and predictable.

But there is also no "huge" or "magic" advantage to FF. The differences in Andy's shots boil down to lighting and exposure more than anything else, plus the natural difference in sharpness between the formats. And they are not large as claimed.

It really amazes me how people overplay the differences between the two formats, and often fail to recognize the real reasons for differences between their comparison shots.
Daniel, it is a nice shot - could you please post the whole uncropped picture of 18 mpx?

Regarding lightning. all the shots of the 1st series (surfers) were taken under the same lightning conditions, at the same time. An overexpose - underexposure margin is about 1/3 - 1/2 stops for all of them.

A difference in IQ and degrading resolution of a crop format is noticeable when you crop a picture. If you compare uncropped pics, the IQ difference between the 7D and 5D is not as big.
 
Wonderful shots, thanks for sharing! I like colors and great details at 1:1. Only blind people cannot see the IQ difference between the 5D Mark II and the 7D.

I own the T3i and considering an upgrade to the 5D II, if the price goes down more.

One question: would the 100-400mm with IS be better for these shots?

A bit OT, but how do you find the C1 processing comparing to LR?
Thanks, Chris. The 100-400mm would not do any better even with IS, because it is not as sharp at 400mm as the prime. Many people would claim the opposite, but it is not what I found comparing a few 100-400mm copies with my 400mm f/5.6. Also, the prime is sharp across the whole frame, while the 100-400mm is quite soft in the mid-range and corners.

The IS would be a nice feature to freeze a frame when shooting handheld, but irrelevant for tripod shots. As I mentioned, all the posted surfers' pictures were taken handheld as I forgot my tripod. Tripod shots look better though.

Regarding C1. I use both LR and C1 for post processing and found C1 to be better in terms of:
1. Easy black and white point setting
2. Fantastic color editor and skin editor

3. Better colors using camera ICC profiles comparing with Adobe profiles. I also use X-Rite Passport generated DNG profiles, but C1 ICC one are much better.

4. Options of input/output histogram adjustment for R, G and B separately. A very powerful feature when shooting red roses, for example with a blown red channel.

LR still has a better (more user-friendly, faster) catalog system than C1. Actually, C1 doesn't have any and you have to buy also their Media Pro, which is simply a pain in the back, very slow and buggy.
 
No, it's a very poorly understood phenomenon because people fail to understand what the h is in lp/ph.
I still hope that you will understand it some day.
I'm tired of explaining it to you.
What units do you prefer? lp per picture width? What is wrong with lp/ph?
I would expect 5-10% based on the surfing photos he posted. But I don't expect real world images to shatter misinterpretations of numerical data any time soon.
His surfing photos actually confirm his IMATEST measurements.
Uh huh...and where do you see a nearly 60% difference in those shots?
How do you know what a 60% difference looks like?
 
Daniel, it is a nice shot - could you please post the whole uncropped picture of 18 mpx?
I do not post full shots at full resolution here. I hardly ever post anything of my own here at all for my own reasons. I will post a scaled down version if you want to see the whole scene.
Regarding lightning. all the shots of the 1st series (surfers) were taken under the same lightning conditions, at the same time. An overexpose - underexposure margin is about 1/3 - 1/2 stops for all of them.
I would say it's a little more than that. I honestly figured some thin clouds covered the sun about the time you started shooting the 7D.

Never the less the differences are small and can be attributed to any number of variables. If you want to really see the sensor differences you should shoot a still subject under identical lighting. If you do this and reposition the 5D2 for the same FoV you will see little difference. If you maintain position and crop the 5D2 shot to match FoV you will see some difference, though not the night and day difference often claimed.
A difference in IQ and degrading resolution of a crop format is noticeable when you crop a picture. If you compare uncropped pics, the IQ difference between the 7D and 5D is not as big.
I don't understand what you're trying to say. The the views you provided are simply 100%, actual pixel crops, correct?
 
What units do you prefer? lp per picture width? What is wrong with lp/ph?
For the nth time...

You cannot compare lp/ph values across formats when h equals the physical format height.
How do you know what a 60% difference looks like?
Compare a 7D file to a 10D file. There's a just over 60% difference in linear resolution between the two. That is a far cry from the difference seen in Andy's shots.
 
What units do you prefer? lp per picture width? What is wrong with lp/ph?
For the nth time...

You cannot compare lp/ph values across formats when h equals the physical format height.
There is no physical format height here, just a JPEG file. You are avoiding answering my question. What is "the fair" way to compare resolution for photos taken with different format bodies?
How do you know what a 60% difference looks like?
Compare a 7D file to a 10D file. There's a just over 60% difference in linear resolution between the two. That is a far cry from the difference seen in Andy's shots.
Wrong. Sqrt(3)-1 (assuming a "proportional AA filter) is an upper bound, that you will never get. What you really get depends on the lens. So you really do not know what 60% better resolution means.
 
I just posted my own. JPEG, ISO 400, no sharpening other than the camera setting being just above neutral, and it's an easy match for any of his 5D2 crops.
Again, Daniel, to have a credible comparison you need to post the whole uncropped shot with a valid EXIF. My crops are about 1880×1410 down from 21mpx. So far, it is not clear from your posted shot whether it is a real crop or a downsized full-frame image. To take such a shot with 300mm you need to be too close, about 20m. All my shots were taken from a distance 100-150m.

Also, if your can prove that your crop is about 10-12% from the uncropped image yet taken by 300mm, I will state that you are a genius photographer, one of the best of our time :).
 
For the nth time...

You cannot compare lp/ph values across formats when h equals the physical format height.
There is no physical format height here, just a JPEG file.
Maybe you better re-read DPR's description of the test. Relevant quote: In order to convert to lp/ph, we have to multiply by the sensor height (in mm);
You are avoiding answering my question.
I have answered your question more times than I can count. Just because you do not understand the answer does not mean it has not been answered sufficiently.
Compare a 7D file to a 10D file. There's a just over 60% difference in linear resolution between the two. That is a far cry from the difference seen in Andy's shots.
Wrong.
No, I'm right. Much like the Imatest results, you're just too stubborn or stupid, or both, to get it.
 
For the nth time...

You cannot compare lp/ph values across formats when h equals the physical format height.
There is no physical format height here, just a JPEG file.
Maybe you better re-read DPR's description of the test. Relevant quote: In order to convert to lp/ph, we have to multiply by the sensor height (in mm);
Yes, you have to do that. And why is that a bad thing?

The question stays, what are the "fair" units? You don't have an answer to that, do you?
 
Jesus Christ DLT, give it a fraking rest! You are a one note samba! I don't know who is more obnoxious, you or Keith Reeder.
 
For the nth time...

You cannot compare lp/ph values across formats when h equals the physical format height.
There is no physical format height here, just a JPEG file.
Maybe you better re-read DPR's description of the test. Relevant quote: In order to convert to lp/ph, we have to multiply by the sensor height (in mm);
Yes, you have to do that. And why is that a bad thing?
No, you don't have to do that. And it's a bad thing because the higher number you see for FF is a result of the formula used, not the photo taken.

It's like running a V12 and a V6 at Bonneville, then multiplying the V12's top speed by 2x because it has 12 cylinders.
The question stays, what are the "fair" units? You don't have an answer to that, do you?
Just frame the test target to fill the viewfinder vertically, shoot, and calculate the results. Don't multiply anything by physical sensor height. Physical sensor height should not be relevant. (I think they do this to try and predict what MTF50 will be at various print sizes, but it's BS.)
 
The question stays, what are the "fair" units? You don't have an answer to that, do you?
Just frame the test target to fill the viewfinder vertically, shoot, and calculate the results. Don't multiply anything by physical sensor height. Physical sensor height should not be relevant.
This is exactly what they do. You can calculate the resolution without having the slightest idea what camera took the image - your cell phone, or an LF camera. You just need to have the whole image, and a long enough edge (IMATEST). The results are reported by picture height, and the size of the sensor plays no role.

Again, for the 4th time: what should the "fair" units be?
 
I just posted my own. JPEG, ISO 400, no sharpening other than the camera setting being just above neutral, and it's an easy match for any of his 5D2 crops.
Again, Daniel, to have a credible comparison you need to post the whole uncropped shot with a valid EXIF.
Since I chose a throw away for this one, I'll go ahead and upload the whole freaking thing. (See below.) Again, I do not like to post here for various reasons.
So far, it is not clear from your posted shot whether it is a real crop or a downsized full-frame image. To take such a shot with 300mm you need to be too close, about 20m. All my shots were taken from a distance 100-150m.
No, I wasn't in the water. Standing on a pier. I was closer than you, which should be evident since I said the crop was 100% yet the surfer's head is larger then the heads in your 7D shots. None the less it shows similar sharpness and surface detail to your 5D2 shots.
Also, if your can prove that your crop is about 10-12% from the uncropped image yet taken by 300mm, I will state that you are a genius photographer, one of the best of our time :).
I took a 1000x1000 pixel crop, or 1 MP out of 18 MP, just under 6%. You say your crops were 1880x1410 out of 21 MP? So roughly 12%?

No need to state that I'm a genius photographer, one of the best of our time. I'm not. Just don't run around claiming a "huge" difference in IQ between the 5D2 and 7D. And I'll be happy to back you up if anyone tells you there's a "huge" difference in reach between them.



 
The question stays, what are the "fair" units? You don't have an answer to that, do you?
Just frame the test target to fill the viewfinder vertically, shoot, and calculate the results. Don't multiply anything by physical sensor height. Physical sensor height should not be relevant.
This is exactly what they do.
No, it's not exactly what they do!!! Go back and read the freaking quote.
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top