What do you use all this image quality for?

For high quality prints up to 100 cm/44 inches with I find it almost impossible to tell the difference between 24 Mp FF and 12 + Mp aps-c cameras. I have learned this from many real life head-to-head tests.
Hmmm, I can see the difference in my prints (at 30x40 inches :-) ), but that's comparing a 14MP FF with a 24MP FF image, not APS.
What if I need thight crops? Hey, I use system cameras with interchangeable lenses! I rarely crop to less 50 % of the frame. If more cropping is needed, the content has to be of extraordinary interest and then IQ is of secondary interest.
Personally, I will not crop more than 20% max. If I need to crop more I should have used a different lens, or moved closer.

As for the extraordinary interest, I agree completely.

Oh, to answer your question: I make large prints up to 30x40 inches.

--

The greatest of mankind's criminals are those who delude themselves into thinking they have done 'the right thing.'
  • Rayna Butler
 
like what a lot of people said, once I got my A850... CROP, CROP, CROP!!

Using the entire image isn't necessary sometimes and it makes for better pictures when you have the ability to crop.

I was able to crop my A850 photos at 100% and they were still really sharp... with some photos, it give the impression i was using a 500mm lens.
 
Obviously, you need that level of quality for impressive astronomy pictures... ;)

This aside, we should not forget that there is less difference between 10 and 24 mpix than one would think (for APS-C sensors). In my experience resolution starts to be limited by the lens once you go beyond about 14 mpix and anything between 10 and 14 mpix will print just as big in practice. For full frame, I would think that about 24 mpix is about the sweet spot, and 30-36 mpix will be a relatively small improvement for prints.

When pixel peeping specially designed test pictures, the improvements are easier to notice, of course. But less so if you print normal subjects.

So what is the use? My educated opinion is that P&S with their tiny sensors are good for A4-A3 prints, APS-C of 4/3 are good for A3-A2 prints and full frame are good for A2-A1 prints (European Paper sizes), less if you crop a lot of course. Less under poor light as well.

Then, you should not forget that medium or large format prints have become cheaper. Many photographers own an A3+ or A2 printer. Many photo clubs have an A2 or A1 printer. Having huge prints made online for you has become relatively cheap as well. So people do print larger.
 
...where will it stop. Will we require 48Mp in the A7y and 96 in the A7z?

I'd rather have the option for 12-18 Mp and much higher clean ISO. Why not have a high Mp camera with smaller Mp pixel binning raw options? (e.g. 24Mp with selectable 12 and 6 Mp raw.)

tom
 
I'm only getting the A77 for it's improvement on the A700
1. Articulated LCD
2. Live View
3. Improved ISO
4. Auto HDR

24 mp will be nice for situations where I should have used a longer lens but did not have it handy.

--
Sarge

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You're right but who knows what displaying devices we will have in the future. Why not make 24 MP images now and be able to feed that huge display some day...
We got 24 Mp FF and now we have 24 Mp aps-c. We are awaiting the next level with 36 Mp and maybe more for soon coming FF cameras. Color, dynamic range etc. are way better than we can take advantage of for ordinary pictures. I have asked myself some questions, and now I am asking you: What do most photographers use all this image quality for?

For high quality prints up to 100 cm/44 inches with I find it almost impossible to tell the difference between 24 Mp FF and 12 + Mp aps-c cameras. I have learned this from many real life head-to-head tests.

For high quality magazine and book spreads 12 + Mp aps-c is sufficient, since printing raster and paper limits resolution.

For presentations I use HD image size (1920 x 1080 pixels)

For web I seldom pubish images as large as HD

What if I need thight crops? Hey, I use system cameras with interchangeable lenses! I rarely crop to less 50 % of the frame. If more cropping is needed, the content has to be of extraordinary interest and then IQ is of secondary interest.

What if ... means nothing. What matter is what you do!

That said, I understand and accept the need of very high image quality for specialized tasks and projects, as that some photographers need MF cameras.

How many have analyzed the use of the images to find out what is needed?

Note that it is not my goal to get people from buying expensive gear.

But as members of internet forums like this one, we should not be part of pushing each other/people to buy much more expensive gear than needed, unless people have more money than needed to spend or really want such gear. I think all the pixel peeping seen here is just accelerating the "not-good-enough-feeling", like worrying about the A77 IQ without reflecting on how the pictures will be used. Like a kind of collective hysteria ...
 
I'll agree with you that few need 24MP, but that's only because few people print large. If you do print large, and want to show off your well exposed, well processed image shot with the best glass, give your printer some resolution to work with.

Graham
Hi Graham,

If you read the work at the DXO site, they say that for an 8 x 10 print, all that is needed is an 8MP sensor. They claim that will yield a retina sharp image for an 8 x 10 print at a normal reading distance of 14 inches. What distance from the print did you employ in your examinatins of the prints and did you use a magnfiying aid?

If you look for the resolution of a healthy eye with 20/20 vision and able to adapt to the 14 inch normal reading distance (alas I used to be able to do that) - you will note that 6-7 line pairs per millimeter is all that a healthy eye can do. That translates into 150 to 175 line pairs per inch on a print - and so I would assume that at 300 to 350 DPI the maximum viewable resolution might have been reached. Therefore the 8 MP value used by DXO (10inches x 300~350 DPI) times (8 inches x 300~350DPI) is reasonable. But of course you might want some extra room for cropping without loosing the highest visible quality. So is 24 MP really necessary?

Some say - what if you wanted to print a mural. The answer there is simple as people don't go around viewing murals from a 14 inch viewing distance - they are on the highway or far from the image and it will still appear retina sharp. So DXO is almost right - with the only difference is that you need to account for some cropping.

But some people are like me. I like to get into a photo - like explore it at full glorious size. That can easily be done on your computer screen. That permits enjoyment of this hobby without the added expense and time consumtion by printers, programs, and papers etc.

For instance, some of the DRreview posted images for test cameras are done in a recreational area where many people are in the image. Looking at the full size image (remember here that no pixels are seen at this size) you can find many stories at once. There are the lovers, there are people arguing, there is the mother scolding her child, and there are some elderly couples that hold hands which speaks of a true love that has persisted and flourished over a period of fifty or more years. There are children, teens, middle aged and the elderly. There is a story in each of those faces - if you look. But you cannot see that in an 8 by 10 unless you use a magnifying glass and perhaps printed at 600 DPI or more.

If you were at the scene in person and live - there is a movement of everyone's emotion and disposition. Expressions change in an instant and are as fleeting as a quick smile or wink of an eye. People seeing you looking at them and studing them would be alarmed. But in the photo you can look it all over without and change. The movement is frozen in the image you can look at the relationships that might be there.

Try that even with a lower MP camera and you will see what I am talking about. And do that in images that are from foreign lands to get a flavor of the people.
 
the things that matter in A77 are the sensor color richness IQ DR ...the weather sealed body ..the EVF and FPS ..those are why i want to upgrade from my A580 ( mainly the EVF and IF no light focusing ability coupled with a weather sealed body the size of the A580 )

a camera is a whole ..not just a MP number to count by.
just my 2 cents.
Don't be so quick to discredit your a580. Here is a comparison photo of the a580 and the a77 at very high iso of 6400. The a77 image is downsized to be the same size as the a580 image. No other processing was done. If you want a good example of Image IQ look at the bottle to the left of the color chart. If you want to see noise and saturation look at the color chart. I think the a580 does a much better job at iso 6400 and would yield a better image on printing at 8 by ten. So get the a77 but don't selll the a580.

click on the image to get the full sized item





click on the image to get the full sized item.

look at the white lettering and the red background. The colors are so much more saturated in the a580 rendition. And the red background is smooth. The gold area is also more saturated.
 
...where will it stop. Will we require 48Mp in the A7y and 96 in the A7z?

I'd rather have the option for 12-18 Mp and much higher clean ISO. Why not have a high Mp camera with smaller Mp pixel binning raw options? (e.g. 24Mp with selectable 12 and 6 Mp raw.)

tom
Agree 100%
 
.............
I would like fine tune of AF. I appreciate that I have to work with it as the AF might be better (but I have yet to see this proved)
I have used the fine tune function in an a850 that was returned and the D700 which I still have. My main camera is the Sony a700 (the latter is a Ferrari and the D700 is a cumbersome Mac truck. Both worked reasonably well and the sharper your image the better it works.

Interesting thing about the Sony A700. It had a front focus problem and the camera has no micro adjust feature. Therefore photos were never really tack sharp. So I sent my a700 with 50 1.4 to Sony in Texas to align things. When I got is back I was amazed. The 50 1.4 wide opened was incredibly sharp. I never even imagined how incredibly sharp that it could be open all the way. I can slice an eyelash. The difference was amazing. So I wrote to Sony (about 4 years ago) and told them that they should have a mechanism where the user could adjust that function. They never answered in mail, just in actions.
 
Here is a comparison photo of the a580 and the a77 at very high iso of 6400.
We know your position. Even if the A77 image, although a bit more noisy, is much sharper.

Now try to convince me within the 50-800 ISO range. I'll never use anything above that on both A580 and A77.

--
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Hi,

Personally I see problems with the a77 at iso 200. Not intense but visible at a 100% on the computer. Like the items that I posted.

I hear you about iso 800 and you probably don't use that because of its limitations with your current camera (our usage patterns are sometimes shaped by what is available to us). But if you had iso 1600 or 3200 without any deterioration of the image you could use faster shutter speeds or even sweeter aperatures. But I admit that if you work primnarily in a studio that might not apply to you.

Yesterday I wanted to see how much resoultion or detail loss my a700 had at iso 6400. It is many times better than the a77 which has twice as many pixels however and to be fair the noise on the a700 at 6400 is pretty bad. But, you can read lettering and see shapes like they were at low iso with just the noise sprinkled in. The detail seems quite well preserved. The A77 has less noise but the image gets quite deteriorated when the iso increases.

In my regard I rarely print an image. I like looking at them at full size on the computer screen. It is almost like you are there and part of the image. But that is just me and my way of enjoying the hobby.

One other item, the a700 as well as several other Sonys can be played on an HDTV. You have to see or experience that to believe it. It is incredibly sharp and intensely realistic and you can magnify and move around etc with the remote. Just place the camera on a stand or a couch and connect a mini HDMI cable to the TV. The screen becomes just like your LCD on the back of the camera. And if you are trying to sell photos in your studio, have the client work the remote so they can go back and forth to decide which images to buy. Big illuminated images sell better. You can even busy yourself with other things and leave the room. The Nikon D 700 can do that but not anywhere as well as the Sony. By using the remote instead of the camera, as you must with the Nikon (no remote from Nikon or any other manufacturer for the D700 screen functions) you don't risk having a client drop your camera. It is a win win win situation.

If you are using the function for the first time and place a high quality landscape image up - it will take yor breath away. It is as if you are looking out of a large window and are right there. Same goes for wedding pictures - you are looking at life sized illuminated images not a dinner plate.
 
...where will it stop. Will we require 48Mp in the A7y and 96 in the A7z?

I'd rather have the option for 12-18 Mp and much higher clean ISO. Why not have a high Mp camera with smaller Mp pixel binning raw options? (e.g. 24Mp with selectable 12 and 6 Mp raw.)
Like Nikon did with their D3 and D3x, but at A900 and A850 price levels :)

Then there'd be something for everybody. The sad fact is, though, that most people would opt for the highest possible pixel count, and the high ISO model would probably lose money for Sony.
Why would people buy high resolution lenses and not high resolution sensors?
 
more than anything, as you mentioned MOST people don't need 24+ MP worth of resolution... and the ones that do would realise that most lenses don't resolve this sort of detail anyway and you'd need to step into medium format to actually get real resolution.

BUT

people are hooked on the idea of more megapixels, higher ISO etc etc because they create this idea in their mind that it IS so significantly better.

of course at the same time they forget that a higher resolution sensor means:

-needing more memory card space, meaning spending more money
-needing sufficient computer processing power, meaning spending more money

-needing better lenses to show this increased detail, meaning spending more money
-paying more money for the actual camera when they don't need the resolution

what i find would like to see in newer cameras is better, more thought out ergonomics, better colour, DR, high ISO quality (not necessarily clean but detailed and with good gradation), and much more.

i feel like increasing megapixels is a formula used by manufacturers to drive sales, and at the same time consumers stuck with this belief of "more is better" continues to drive manufacturers to keeping doing more megapixels.
 
You're right but who knows what displaying devices we will have in the future. Why not make 24 MP images now and be able to feed that huge display some day...
For projection in a living room/class room XGA resolution (1024 x 768) works pretty well, and HD (1920 x 1080 -- about 2k) is better than 35 mm slide film projection.

For movie theatres 4k is marvellous and 8k even better. But then we are talking about large rooms and some viewing distance.

For a screen megapixels beyond the eye's resolution is not thant interesting.
 
Agree totally!
  • One low Mp camera for high ISO performance -- maybe base ISO 800 or 1600
  • One very high Mp camera for resolution
For the low Mp camera his would allow very good high frame rate shooting, since there is less data to shuffle trough the buffer. Would make a really interesting alternative for sports/action/wildlife/birds in flight etc. ... and night & astrophotography!
 

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