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Got a first place finish in a challenge but now wondering...

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jmgir said:
One eyed Bart said:
jmgir said:
........ thus the Host should write clear and defined rules.
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In my opinion he did.
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OK, I am not specifically talking about this Challenge or this Host but I believe that if the Host was doing what the Host says he will do with DQing photos, then we wouldn't be discussing this issue. Only, and only then we would vote a 0.5* for a terrible photo, not one that we dislike because of personal taste but because it's not good, imo.
jmgir said:
I can clearly see it is a Suzuki and the model is a Swift..........plan as day in the image.
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I saw that also and I won't argue that point.
jmgir said:
The host does not ask that it be written in the notes, description or title.
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"please tell us the model and make " to tell or not to tell, that is the question ..>
jmgir said:
This is a clear case of voting based on a personal interpretation of a rule and getting it wrong.......probably inadvertently.
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I am not siding with RaptorUK but the "Tell us its make and model" is active, on the car it's passive, the car told us not the photographer; the Host wasn't specific enough, tell me if you agree or not.
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Of course the photographer told us by the way he framed the image to include the brand and model on the rear of the vehicle. He doesn't need to be more specific as there was no issue between the host or the photographer........the issue was with the third party voting on his interpretation of the rules. Something that in my opinion he or we should be doing. Does this third party know of any correspondence between host and the entrant regarding said image and rules compliance ?........no he doesn't.
jmgir said:
jmgir said:
Eliminate the personal interpretations and leave that up to the host and the entrant.........judge what is put in front of you by the host when the voting starts........the submission rules are the obsolete.
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No, I disagree, when there is ambiguity there is personal interpretation; did you look at the Challenge Clothing Optional: right from the get go, after the first comment by RaptorUK, I sent messages to the Host and he didn't even acknowledge receiving such, I had major issues with two photos, the Host didn't seem to look at "decency provisions" of DPR's rules and so should we leave it up to Host and entrant, no, but yes in a perfect word this shouldn't happen. There are Challenges where rules are simples and easy to understand even for photographers that are not as fluent in English as we think they should. OK, now come the people saying that if they don't fully understand all the finesse of the English language that's tough for them and there I disagree. It should possible for the Host to convey to an international audience the rules of the Challenge. We have looked at comments from individuals trying to say that wasn't a English test and they are somewhat right. It is photography, it should be fun and entertaining and across borders.
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No argument however........ the English as a second language entrants can clarify with the host and the host clarify with the English as a second language entrant rather than have a third party interpreting the hosts rules. Much fairer all round and probably more satisfactory for the English as a second language entrant.
jmgir said:
jmgir said:
This way those doing the judging don't have to interpret any possibly ambiguous or possibly confusing rules..........that would have all been worked out in advance before the voting between the host and the entrant.
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Right if the Host is responsible.
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And that's down to DPR.....remove the irresponsible hosts that don't police their challenges.

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Arrrrrrh !

Bart.
 
I don't give 0.5 votes. After some thought I decided that if the host kept the photo in the challenge then I will vote on it as if it's appropriate to the challenge, no matter what my personal opinion. As others have said, it's their job to DQ if needed. If not I assume the host is ok with it. If the host isn't, they should have pulled it. Especially if it's a great shot, I will vote based on that.

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"Above all, we are coming to understand that the arts incarnate the creativity of a free people. When the creative impulse cannot flourish, when it cannot freely select its methods and objects, when it is deprived of spontaneity, then society severs the root of art."
— John F. Kennedy
 
It doesn't, but I have interpreted "tell us" as writing it somewhere . . . interesting how the Host hasn't replied to my Feedback to tell me I was wrong . . . . or right.

DPR expressly tell me to vote on how well an image complies with the rules . .

how well does the image meet (your interpretation of) the challenge's criteria (name, description & rules)

if you don't like this take it up with DPR not me.

Until Hosts are "challenged" and dealt with in some effective way I'll keep voting the way DPR want me to.

Perhaps you can advise me on how I should vote on the Hands Challenge ? or the Pot Bellies Challenge ?
One eyed Bart said:
"Please tell us the model and make"..........it is "told"i n the image........where does it say it has to be written as part of the title, description or notes.

Again this voting the rules BS has to stop or should be stopped by DPR........the host sets the rules for submission, the host Dq's those that do not follow the rules, the judges vote on what the hosts leaves to be voted on. If the host doesn't bother DQ'ing or policing his challenge...............then his challenge hosting days are over. Simple.
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Arrrrrrh !

Bart.
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Take a look at my album . . . http://www.F1Album.com
 
Obviously the Host did his job properly . . . . I guess you can see the Make and Model on this car ?

http://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Entry.aspx?ID=513300&View=Results&Rows=25

and this one . .

http://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Entry.aspx?ID=512218&View=Results&Rows=25

and this one with VW on the front

http://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Entry.aspx?ID=513330&View=Results&Rows=25

and you can see Toyoto in a microdot on these ?

http://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Entry.aspx?ID=514544&View=MyVotes&Rows=25

http://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Entry.aspx?ID=514752&View=MyVotes&Rows=25

and what can you see on this to ID it ?

http://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Entry.aspx?ID=512004&View=MyVotes&Rows=25

and where does this say Lexus ?

http://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Entry.aspx?ID=511398&View=MyVotes&Rows=25

any idea what this is ?

http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/6584690903/photos/1423564

So my interpretation was wrong ? At least I was consistent . . .
One eyed Bart said:
Of course the photographer told us by the way he framed the image to include the brand and model on the rear of the vehicle. He doesn't need to be more specific as there was no issue between the host or the photographer........ the issue was with the third party voting on his interpretation of the rules. Something that in my opinion he or we should be doing. Does this third party know of any correspondence between host and the entrant regarding said image and rules compliance ?........no he doesn't.
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Take a look at my album . . . http://www.F1Album.com
 
IMO it is obvious what should happen: the host removes the entries that don't meet the rules of the challenge, before the start of voting; the voters should then score the photos on the merits of the photograph itself, and not try to be policemen for the challenge.

For themes that depend on personal interpretation, maybe there could be a clear guideline like 70 / 30 for weighting quality vs. interpretation. Personally I don't like those themes anyway: like, interpret the Beatles song "Yellow Submarine" and one guy enters a picture of a yellow submarine and another a street scene. Which one is the better interpretation? If both are acceptable to the host I'd rather just vote on which is the better photograph...

Joe
 
I agree . . . but what should happen and what is happening in some Challenges is not the same thing.

When what should happen doesn't, how show we vote ?
Joe Pineapples said:
IMO it is obvious what should happen: the host removes the entries that don't meet the rules of the challenge, before the start of voting; the voters should then score the photos on the merits of the photograph itself, and not try to be policemen for the challenge.
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Take a look at my album . . . http://www.F1Album.com
 
RaptorUK said:
When what should happen doesn't, how show we vote ?
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With a bit of common sense.

If the challenge is that screwed up, the way it's written or managed, don't enter it or vote in it...........if the host is continually neglectful, ignore his challenges totally. Couple of comments to him personally, if that doesn't do the trick, then publically. A moan to DPR staff might help but I have my doubts.

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Arrrrrrh !

Bart.
 
If you can't tell that the car is japanese you must be stupid. Even my mother knows what a Suzuki Swift looks like.
RaptorUK said:
It doesn't, but I have interpreted "tell us" as writing it somewhere . . . interesting how the Host hasn't replied to my Feedback to tell me I was wrong . . . . or right.

DPR expressly tell me to vote on how well an image complies with the rules . .

how well does the image meet (your interpretation of) the challenge's criteria (name, description & rules)

if you don't like this take it up with DPR not me.

Until Hosts are "challenged" and dealt with in some effective way I'll keep voting the way DPR want me to.

Perhaps you can advise me on how I should vote on the Hands Challenge ? or the Pot Bellies Challenge ?
One eyed Bart said:
"Please tell us the model and make"..........it is "told"i n the image........where does it say it has to be written as part of the title, description or notes.

Again this voting the rules BS has to stop or should be stopped by DPR........the host sets the rules for submission, the host Dq's those that do not follow the rules, the judges vote on what the hosts leaves to be voted on. If the host doesn't bother DQ'ing or policing his challenge...............then his challenge hosting days are over. Simple.
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Arrrrrrh !

Bart.
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Take a look at my album . . . http://www.F1Album.com
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Philip Lanoue said:
Ok, so I recieved a first place finish in the "Pink" challenge for my Roseate Spoonbill photo.

http://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Challenge.aspx?ID=5206

Thanks to all who voted for my photo, I greatly appreciate the support and am happy that folks enjoyed the image!

However looking over the voting results I saw that two individuals voted this image with half of one star. So in other words there are two people that believe that on a scale of one to ten this photo deserves a vote of one.

Now I would be very interested to see the galleries of those who would rate a photo like this so low. I can only conclude that they must be extremely gifted and talented photographers.
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I think you are wrong to make this conclusion. How did you reach this conclusion?
Philip Lanoue said:
So if those two individuals happen to read this post would they please provide a link to where their photography can be viewed. I would love to see what real top notch photos look like.
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Challenges can be, and are, too easily manipulated. Anyone can vote anything, any person could have several user IDs and use them to tweak results, and there doesn't seem to be any statistical tool to try to smoothe things out (which anyway is always difficult to do as it can happen that someone loves a shot, and someone hates it).

So my suggestion is you should be happy that you won a challenge, but not catch a big head and think this means much, if anything. And you certainly shouldn't be wasting your time attempting to find out who gave your shot a low mark, or why.

If you want more representative feedback, you should try:
  • either to get your photos exposed in a serious gallery (this in itself is a challenge), and wait to see whether they sell
  • or, participate in controlled, serious challenges, and see where you end up
The DPreview challenges are just for fun, nothing more, nothing less.
 
antoineb said:
Challenges can be, and are, too easily manipulated. Anyone can vote anything, any person could have several user IDs and use them to tweak results, and there doesn't seem to be any statistical tool to try to smoothe things out (which anyway is always difficult to do as it can happen that someone loves a shot, and someone hates it).

So my suggestion is you should be happy that you won a challenge, but not catch a big head and think this means much, if anything. And you certainly shouldn't be wasting your time attempting to find out who gave your shot a low mark, or why.

If you want more representative feedback, you should try:
  • either to get your photos exposed in a serious gallery (this in itself is a challenge), and wait to see whether they sell
  • or, participate in controlled, serious challenges, and see where you end up
The DPreview challenges are just for fun, nothing more, nothing less.
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I completely agree that the challenges are for fun and that's how I view them.

Coming in first in one hardly gives me a big head. I don't enter many challenges, but I've had other top three finishes and another first or two. I've also finished in the middle of the pack, and toward the back of the pack. It's no big deal to me either way.

As fas my own credentials go, I worked for many years as a news photographer and covered everything from presidential campaigns to pro sports. So I've had plenty of representitive feedback. That's not really an issue for me.

I now just shoot birds and other wildlife for myself for fun. So if I run across the occasional challenge in which I feel one of my bird or alligator photos will fit the theme I might stick it in there just for the heck of it.

My main purpose in even starting this thread was simply to vent a bit as many others have done. I just thought presenting it now in a personal manner with a first place finish would make more sense then making a general, overall comment on voting procedures which has been done previously.

Of course I understand that what's basically taking place here with voters giving half start ratings to reasonaby decent photos is "sandbagging". Which I take to mean that a person who also has an entry in the same challenge votes down other entries in hopes of making theirs finish better. Is this correct?

However I do stand by my initial challenge (if you will). I really wish there would be one person who would have the stones to honestly stand by a low vote and also prove how outstanding a photographer they are. I know this will never happen, so as I said, I'm mostly just venting a bit and really do not expect anything to come of it other then this discussion which surely has happened.
So there we go.
 
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