part 2: Nikon did what I hoped Canon would do...

When I read the almost emotional reactions on my post I think I have not been that clear in explaining what I ment.

Second atempt:

-I dont need medium format quality like the 1ds offers. The D30 is allready good enough for me, allthough D60 resolution would be nice.

-I want a smaller camera and lens, just to be able to take the pictures I dont take now because I left that big and heavy camera at home.
-It would be nice for me if I could afford it.

My preferable scenario:

-Canon makes high end full frame SLR (like the 1Ds) with EF mount for pro's.

-Canon keeps making the full frame EF mounted lenses for film slr's and the digital full frame camera's

nothing new till now.

-For the advaced amature photgraphers like me Canon makes a ultra small SLR with the APS size sensor like the D60 has.
Advatages: small and cheap (a full frame sensor is very difficult to produce).

This camera has a normal EF mount, so it will be possible to use my "old" EF lenses.
-Canon will make some "APS sensor covering" size lenses with EF mount.
Advantages: smaller, and cheaper. Wow, I might finally afford L quality lenses!

I think the full frame sensor camera will stay unafordable for most hobby photographers like me. I also think the big profits for Canon are made in the prosumer market, and not in the pro market.

Canon might lose the prosumer market if they will keep making far to big, heavy and expensive camera systems.

Just my thoughts.

Bas Ladru

--

D30, 420EX + omnibounce, Canon 20-35USMCanon 24-85, Canon 50 F1.8MKI, Canon 35 F2, Canon 75-300 IS, Cosina 19-35, Canon 28-105, Canon 28-135, Tamron 28-300, Set of extension tubes.

ladru said:

nothing new till now.

-For the advaced amature photgraphers like me Canon makes a ultra
small SLR with the APS size sensor like the D60 has.
Advatages: small and cheap (a full frame sensor is very difficult
to produce).
This camera has a normal EF mount, so it will be possible to use my
"old" EF lenses.

Click to expand...

Still has to maintain EF compatibility (focus issues) so mirror box
will remain unchanged. Rebel sized (much like the D60) is about the
limit.

ladru said:

-Canon will make some "APS sensor covering" size lenses with EF mount.
Advantages: smaller, and cheaper. Wow, I might finally afford L
quality lenses!

Click to expand...

If they did this they would:
1) fracture their lens line up. I think Canon like to say use
any EF lens on any EOS camera.

2) not make "L" glass for the consumer line. The "L" glass would be
reserved for the FF.

3) the only cost/size savings would be on the Wide angle side. Fast
telephotos would show little benefit.

ladru said:

I think the full frame sensor camera will stay unafordable for most
hobby photographers like me. I also think the big profits for Canon
are made in the prosumer market, and not in the pro market.

Click to expand...

I agree there. But most people that shoot really wide, tend to spend
more anyway. Most consumers think 35mm (or equivalent) is "wide".

ladru said:

Canon might lose the prosumer market if they will keep making far
to big, heavy and expensive camera systems.

Click to expand...

That is why they have the G3.

--
---
My really bad latest Gallery:
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/tempephoenix

Steven Noyes said:

If they did this they would:
1) fracture their lens line up. I think Canon like to say use
any EF lens on any EOS camera.

Click to expand...

I don't see the issue if all you are doing is adding one or two lenses to the range.

Steven Noyes said:

2) not make "L" glass for the consumer line. The "L" glass would be
reserved for the FF.

Click to expand...

Probably true. But the people buying the smaller sensor/cheaper camera can get by with something that is not 100% L quality, as long as they make it optically good.

Steven Noyes said:

3) the only cost/size savings would be on the Wide angle side. Fast
telephotos would show little benefit.

Click to expand...

True, which is why they don't really need to add a whole lot of lenses. Just add a 12-24 or something, maybe add a lens that will cover the 28-80 range (effective, after 1.6x) and that could be fine.

I don't think they will (or should, even) introduce a whole new series of lenses that aren't EF compatible, but rather augment the EF lineup with some lenses along the line of what Sigma has done with the DG lenses.

How about that, Canon. Care to keep us "cheapskates" along for the ride ? (we don't want to pay > $3000 for a new camera every year...)

Hi Bas -

Those who want the features of an SLR, know that that's what an SLR is for, and should prepare themselves for the world of SLR.

Those who are asking for smaller "SLR-Like" cameras will go for those cameras that are like the G2/G3 types but are in the shape of an SLR, but do not feature interchangeable lenses. Because once you start wanting that feature, well, we fall back to having true SLR's. If you want these features, then you must also expect to pay the price of SLR-type features.

Those who are looking for smaller and lesser, already have plenty of selection in that category for them currently available.

The key is that the two cannot mix. There are already cameras developed for each individual market segment. If you want certain things, then certain cameras in certain markets won't apply to you while others will. If people want SLR features, then that is what SLR cameras are for.

The thing is, Canon already makes small body SLR cameras, like the D60. And there are smaller lenses for it as well. There will never be an L lens for the smaller class type cameras because L lenses are pro-level lenses. And those buying the consumer/prosumer class cameras generally wouldn't be looking into these lenses anyway because it is far beyond the class of the camera body itself.

Canon already makes different classes of lenses and different classes of bodies. And photography as you know, is all about compromises. =)

--
Tuan Nguyen.
Editor-in-Chief, CarAndModel.com
Technology Editor, Firingsquad.com
Contributing Editor, Maximum PC Magazine

Canon EOS D60
Canon 28-70mm f/2.8 L
Canon 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS
Sigma 50mm f/2.8 EX Macro
Canon 550EX and 420EX
Canon TC-80N3 Remote

Tuan A. Nguyen said:

Hi Bas -

Those who want the features of an SLR, know that that's what an SLR
is for, and should prepare themselves for the world of SLR.

Those who are asking for smaller "SLR-Like" cameras will go for
those cameras that are like the G2/G3 types but are in the shape of
an SLR,

Click to expand...

I've had a number of digicams. At one point I bought the G1--would have preferred a digital SLR (coming from a film SLR--with other digicams in between), but they were pretty pricey at that point. I ended up being able to shoot a bit of commercial work with that camera, clients were pleased--and I made enough money to upgrade. I thought long and hard about the D30 but still could not justify it, so bought the E10. I quickly made enough with that camera to consider yet another upgrade. Then--the D60 came out--and the price came down. That was it--I moved up, bought some good lenses, made some more money--but now I really don't feel I need to upgrade yet again. I could still shoot with the G series and make my clients happy--but not me for my personal work. I don't have an issue with size--and I don't think so many SLR shooters do. I wouldn't mind if the camera was smaller, lens were smaller--if all were interchangeable like the EOS line is. I'm much more concerned about image quality. IF--I feel the need to carry a small cam--the G1 is still around. If you are going to use an SLR--it will never be pocketable--and never totally comfortable to carry--there will always be more than one lens for one thing--so that means a larger bag--so I"m not sure that size will be an issue for me for a long, long time. Wider???--well, I would love a true wider lens, but in the meantime, I'm not unhappy with the Sigma 15-30--and if Canon, or a 3rd party, comes out with a good one for the D60--I'll line up to buy it.

--
Diane B
http://www.pbase.com/picnic/galleries
B/W lover, but color is seducing me

That may be a choice path for you... but when you say:

ladru said:

-For the advaced amature photgraphers like me Canon makes a ultra
small SLR with the APS size sensor like the D60 has.

Click to expand...

that is where you are wrong. "Advanced Amateurs" are just that - advanced - and they buy the same gear pros do, not compromised solutions. Period.

John

ladru said:

When I read the almost emotional reactions on my post I think I
have not been that clear in explaining what I ment.

Second atempt:

-I dont need medium format quality like the 1ds offers. The D30 is
allready good enough for me, allthough D60 resolution would be nice.
-I want a smaller camera and lens, just to be able to take the
pictures I dont take now because I left that big and heavy camera
at home.
-It would be nice for me if I could afford it.

My preferable scenario:

-Canon makes high end full frame SLR (like the 1Ds) with EF mount
for pro's.
-Canon keeps making the full frame EF mounted lenses for film slr's
and the digital full frame camera's

nothing new till now.

-For the advaced amature photgraphers like me Canon makes a ultra
small SLR with the APS size sensor like the D60 has.
Advatages: small and cheap (a full frame sensor is very difficult
to produce).
This camera has a normal EF mount, so it will be possible to use my
"old" EF lenses.
-Canon will make some "APS sensor covering" size lenses with EF mount.
Advantages: smaller, and cheaper. Wow, I might finally afford L
quality lenses!

I think the full frame sensor camera will stay unafordable for most
hobby photographers like me. I also think the big profits for Canon
are made in the prosumer market, and not in the pro market.

Canon might lose the prosumer market if they will keep making far
to big, heavy and expensive camera systems.

Just my thoughts.

Bas Ladru

--
D30, 420EX + omnibounce, Canon 20-35USMCanon 24-85, Canon 50
F1.8MKI, Canon 35 F2, Canon 75-300 IS, Cosina 19-35, Canon 28-105,
Canon 28-135, Tamron 28-300, Set of extension tubes.

Click to expand...

John Davis said:

that is where you are wrong. "Advanced Amateurs" are just that -
advanced - and they buy the same gear pros do, not compromised
solutions. Period.

Click to expand...

What compromised solution? What splintered lens line-up? All they have to do is make one lens that mitigates the cropping effect of their APS -size senored SLR's on the wide end.

Canon makes macro lenses to allow you to focus more closely. Tele-extenders to double your focal length. Tilt/shift optics to correct for parallax error and stretch depth of field. Why not a lens specifically designed to give digital photograpers back the wide end on digital cameras?

Makes sense to me. It's just one more speciallized optic in a line-up that's full of similiar niche products.
Doug B
Torontowide.com

Tuan A. Nguyen said:

Hi Bas -

Those who want the features of an SLR, know that that's what an SLR
is for, and should prepare themselves for the world of SLR.

Click to expand...

Yes, but the world of SLR doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg...

Tuan A. Nguyen said:

Those who are asking for smaller "SLR-Like" cameras will go for
those cameras that are like the G2/G3 types but are in the shape of
an SLR, but do not feature interchangeable lenses. Because once you
start wanting that feature, well, we fall back to having true
SLR's. If you want these features, then you must also expect to pay
the price of SLR-type features.

Click to expand...

Again, not really, since SLR-type features CAN come in 1.6x FOV packages. Like the D60, D30 and 1D (although it is 1.3x). Or have you forgotten that...

Not all users of SLRs need 11 or 14MP, 8fps and 45pt AF (although I will admit that the AF does sound nice), and there is a big gap between the D60s of the world and the G3.

Tuan A. Nguyen said:

Those who are looking for smaller and lesser, already have plenty
of selection in that category for them currently available.

Click to expand...

I am afraid that if Canon does not do something in that area, the 4/3 sensor (or Nikon, Sigma) might eat that entire lunch, and I believe that there is a whole lot of money there...

Tuan A. Nguyen said:

The thing is, Canon already makes small body SLR cameras, like the
D60. And there are smaller lenses for it as well. There will never
be an L lens for the smaller class type cameras because L lenses
are pro-level lenses. And those buying the consumer/prosumer class
cameras generally wouldn't be looking into these lenses anyway
because it is far beyond the class of the camera body itself.

Click to expand...

So basically what you are saying is that everyone who is using L lenses on D60s are doing something wrong now ? Since there will never be L lenses for cameras like the D60 ? You're being confusing now...

Tuan A. Nguyen said:

Canon already makes different classes of lenses and different
classes of bodies. And photography as you know, is all about
compromises. =)

Click to expand...

But there is nothing to stop them from making a decent (although maybe not quite to L standard, maybe a little less in the build quality department, since sealed lenses without sealed camera bodies seems like a joke...) lens that has a smaller image circle...

GOiNK said:

Again, not really, since SLR-type features CAN come in 1.6x FOV
packages. Like the D60, D30 and 1D (although it is 1.3x). Or have
you forgotten that...

Click to expand...

A smaller image circle ONLY helps for short focal lengths, not the whole
range. If you maintain ANY compatibility with the EF mount, the D60/rebel
is as small as it gets.

Also, the 1D and 1Ds are the smae exact size, or did you forget that?

GOiNK said:

Not all users of SLRs need 11 or 14MP, 8fps and 45pt AF (although I
will admit that the AF does sound nice), and there is a big gap
between the D60s of the world and the G3.

Click to expand...

And there is a big gap between the D60 and 1D. I suspect Canon will
fill those.

GOiNK said:

I am afraid that if Canon does not do something in that area, the
4/3 sensor (or Nikon, Sigma) might eat that entire lunch, and I
believe that there is a whole lot of money there...

Click to expand...

Sigma? Nikon? Making a smaller image circle only benefits the low
end of things. And that is limited since you are constrained by the
distance from the back of the lens to the focal plane. It helps to
get closer. Remember that Nikon is keeping the same mount. They are
just creating more compatibility issues in their line-up.

Nikon and Sigma have the same issues and Sigma has no small image
circle lenses.

Nikon/Sigma are not playing the 4/3 game, that is OlyDak.

GOiNK said:

So basically what you are saying is that everyone who is using L
lenses on D60s are doing something wrong now ? Since there will
never be L lenses for cameras like the D60 ? You're being confusing
now...

Click to expand...

No what he is saying the market for "L" AND small image circle does
not justify the cost if canon believes that FF is their final goal.
The only lenses it would affect, anyway, are the wide-angle. The Tele-
photos would not be impacted. Their size is a result of Physics and
not a result of image circle.

GOiNK said:

But there is nothing to stop them from making a decent (although
maybe not quite to L standard, maybe a little less in the build
quality department, since sealed lenses without sealed camera
bodies seems like a joke...) lens that has a smaller image circle...

Click to expand...

Is the market that big? I don't think so. The 1D provides decent
wide angle (1.3X) and the 1Ds full wide angle. Many of the people
that use those cameras, use them because of that.

I might see a single prime (12 mm) being produced as a stop gap, but
little more.

--
---
My really bad latest Gallery:
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/tempephoenix

You guys make it sound so easy to make a good quality wide angle lens.

To make a smaller lens for the 1.5 sensor, whilst keeping the distance between rear of lens and sensor the same means the light gathering and focus algorithm has to change as well. If that is the case, I cannot see how one can use this on a camera with a larger sensor. This works for Nikon because they have adopted a std sensor size. Canon has not ... at least not yet.

One benefit of using a regular 35mm lens on a smaller sensor is that the edge of the lenses are not used. By reducing the circumference of the lens, you have negated this benefit.

This whole issue is like me saying I want a 24-85 f4L - it ain't gonna happen just because I say so.
--
Zero my hero

"L" lens are those that need special optics. Extremely fast lenses, or super-wide angles or super telephotos need special optical solutions. This does not mean that only "L" lenses are professional quality.

If Canon decided to make lenses for it's 1.6 FOV format, it could make smaller cameras & more rapidly reach the price point where additional consumers will buy in.

While the mirror box would likely stay a similar size, I believe the D60 has a smaller than FF mirror. If this is so it would allow the new lens to enter the mirrror box more deeply. For super-wide angle lenses, this may not be desirable due to the limits it places on pixel fill around the outer edges of the sensor.

More importantly, the prism could be made smaller & less expensively. Any company involved in the APS format already has a foot up in this design area of this format & could focus on the digital optics.

No matter how we feel about it, Canon & Nikon will have stiff competition from the Olydak sooner or latter. This market is too large to miss out on.

Regards,
CLTHRS

I think that Nikon's idea is great as a stop-gap measure until full frame sensors become more affordable. While I believe that full size sensors are the way to go, I also believe that until they become affordable that there needs to be wide angle alternatives for 'the masses.'

I hope that Canon does something similar. It may also help keep the 2/3 system from taking away low-end camera sales from Canon and Nikon...not that I really think it will in either way. I personally think that the 2/3 system will die a quick death without a product ever coming out to the market (who knows though - I have been wrong many times before).

While this lens is certainly not aimed at professionals, it is certainly a good idea.

-James

--
http://www.MasterworkPhotography.com

JamesM said:

I think that Nikon's idea is great as a stop-gap measure until full
frame sensors become more affordable. While I believe that full
size sensors are the way to go, I also believe that until they
become affordable that there needs to be wide angle alternatives
for 'the masses.'

Click to expand...

I think you are right here, but I think full-frame sensors "for the masses" are quite a ways off, which is why does make sense...

Member said:

I hope that Canon does something similar. It may also help keep
the 2/3 system from taking away low-end camera sales from Canon and
Nikon...not that I really think it will in either way. I
personally think that the 2/3 system will die a quick death without
a product ever coming out to the market (who knows though - I have
been wrong many times before).

Click to expand...

the 4/3 system will probably die if Canon and Nikon keep up the good work. However, if they leave the gap between the ~$1000 and ~$2000 undefended, the 4/3 system might gain a foothold there, which is where it is targeted...

Member said:

While this lens is certainly not aimed at professionals, it is
certainly a good idea.

Click to expand...

Finally someone who realizes that not every new Canon product is designed for professionals... Even if professionals pay a lot more for their products, they probably cost a lot more to keep as customers too, and they don't sell as many products...

Hello GoINK,

GOiNK said:

JamesM said:

I think that Nikon's idea is great as a stop-gap measure until full
frame sensors become more affordable. While I believe that full
size sensors are the way to go, I also believe that until they
become affordable that there needs to be wide angle alternatives
for 'the masses.'

Click to expand...

I think you are right here, but I think full-frame sensors "for the
masses" are quite a ways off, which is why does make sense...

Click to expand...

I was saying that a wide-angle alternative needed to be here 'for the masses' until full frame becomes standard. I also agree that full frame will not be affordable enough for another couple of years. Who knows, maybe it will be? While the Kodak may not be as sweet at the Canon 1ds, it is several thousand less (even with the demand mark-up factor going on right now).

-James

--
http://www.MasterworkPhotography.com

If Michael Reichman's article on the difficulties Canon encountered with manufacturing the 1DS, and the high cost of anti-aliasing filters at that size, is anything to go by, thinking full-frame for the masses is going to arrive anytime soon is dreaming in technicolour.

In fact if Canon weren't selling so many 14mm and 16-35mm lenses by leaving photographers hamstrung in their current wide angle dilema, they would have been announcing this lens themselves.

I think a lens of this type would have appeal to pros. It's performance wide open may not be outstanding, but not everyone needs it to be, and as with all EF lenses, once stopped down it wouldl probably have very good quality. Believe it or not, not all pros are addicted to blowing the maximum amount possible on every lens purchase

Doug B
Torontowide.com

Doug B said:

If Michael Reichman's article on the difficulties Canon encountered
with manufacturing the 1DS, and the high cost of anti-aliasing
filters at that size, is anything to go by, thinking full-frame for
the masses is going to arrive anytime soon is dreaming in
technicolour.

Click to expand...

Well, if Canon can duplicate the X3 sensor design in full frame (which Canon apparently has a patent to do), then the high cost AA filter will no longer be necessary. Hopefully this will bring costs down.

--
JCDoss
D30/BiG-ED
17-35L, 28-135IS, 50/1.4

Luminous landsacape has an opinion by Michael on what he thinks the introduction of the new lens means:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/whither-nikon.shtml

Larry

ladru said:

When I read the almost emotional reactions on my post I think I
have not been that clear in explaining what I ment.

Second atempt:

-I dont need medium format quality like the 1ds offers. The D30 is
allready good enough for me, allthough D60 resolution would be nice.
-I want a smaller camera and lens, just to be able to take the
pictures I dont take now because I left that big and heavy camera
at home.
-It would be nice for me if I could afford it.

My preferable scenario:

-Canon makes high end full frame SLR (like the 1Ds) with EF mount
for pro's.
-Canon keeps making the full frame EF mounted lenses for film slr's
and the digital full frame camera's

nothing new till now.

-For the advaced amature photgraphers like me Canon makes a ultra
small SLR with the APS size sensor like the D60 has.
Advatages: small and cheap (a full frame sensor is very difficult
to produce).
This camera has a normal EF mount, so it will be possible to use my
"old" EF lenses.
-Canon will make some "APS sensor covering" size lenses with EF mount.
Advantages: smaller, and cheaper. Wow, I might finally afford L
quality lenses!

I think the full frame sensor camera will stay unafordable for most
hobby photographers like me. I also think the big profits for Canon
are made in the prosumer market, and not in the pro market.

Canon might lose the prosumer market if they will keep making far
to big, heavy and expensive camera systems.

Click to expand...

Looks like he's right. Yet another source of confusion for the already large Nikon lens-body incompatibility list. Hahahaha... I'm glad I chose Canon.

Larry H. Smith said:

Luminous landsacape has an opinion by Michael on what he thinks the
introduction of the new lens means:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/whither-nikon.shtml

Click to expand...

Steven Noyes said:

I might see a single prime (12 mm) being produced as a stop gap, but
little more.

Click to expand...

I think that would be great!