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MP wars and Noise A77 vs nex 5N

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rinkos

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hey...yes another chapter in the long war of MP vs noise arguments...

though i think now that we have side by side an A77 and a NEX 5N people will actually get how bad is this race upwards for endless MP on the expense of low iso .

just for starters .

A77 maxed at 16000 iso ( never even saw the iso sample at that high but 12k only )

Nex5n with 16mp sensor max iso 25600

now we have links and SAR for the 1.0 firmware samples of the A77 and i think most will agree that even at 6400 at crop the smearing is awful .

now walk ur self to this nice korean site SLRCLUB to the following NEX5N link :

http://www.slrclub.com/bbs/vx2.php?id=slr_review&page=1&divpage=1&select_arrange=headnum&desc=asc&no=239

scroll down to the noise reduction tests ( low vs high ) and see how superb at 100% crop are the details of this ever so tiny 16mp * sensor at 25600

simply mind blowing ...i checked it vs their own D7000 review scores and the nex5n is even better with full NR at jpeg than the D7000 ! .

while the 24mp cannot provide me any good 100% crops at 6400 and above.

So i ask u this...why do i need so much MP if i cant crop it???
moreover at 16mp level i can crop ..
 
Here we go again.. hehehe.. maybe this a77 was not designed for low light photography. It's for bright sunny day or in studio with flash. The MP count tell it all. Landscapers will love it.. and from my non-pro eye, a77 with ISO6400(with firmware 1.0-look for it) can match or even topped IQ of ISO6400 from my D7k. As I told you, that is from my point of view, other may feel otherwise.
 
jonas ar said:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=32064270

Thought this would be a nice quote now that we have a visit by Mr Browning in the Sony forum in another thread...

Kind regards,

Jonas
Click to expand...
this is from 2009 ..ie more than 2 years ago by now ...
busted myth or not is not the issue...

never did we have the same make comming out at the same time from the same company to test exactly how does tech increase work...

nex5n with 16mp vs A77 with 50% increase MP at 24mp

right of the bat..there is a 25600 vs 16000 ..so even if stopped here ..the lesser MP is better..
but wait..theres more.

even the 25600 is usable in big print ...while the 12800 of the A77 is not..

so this is at least a full stop advantage for the nex5N

now riddle me this is there any reason that sony would not put the best A77 IQ the can ???? any reason at all rather than the simple one that they simply couldnt match the IQ with the one they got for the nex5n *

final note

amazingly even the bridge cams took a step back and started releasing the best cams with lesser MP ..i wonder why ..hmmmm.( sarcasm ) .
 
Too many assumptions, for example comparing results from different pre final jpeg engines from different tests, to conclude things about sensors .
 
TrojMacReady said:
Too many assumptions, for example comparing results from different pre final jpeg engines from different tests, to conclude things about sensors .
Click to expand...
The OP will get a shock when he sees Nex-7 rated higher than Nex-5n on dxomark ;)

and I am putting my money on that.
 
Agreed - I'd be amazed if Sony released a new sensor on their top-of-the-range APS-C cameras if it didn't improve on the old one, especially on as high profile a measure as DXOMark. At the very least the measurements normalised to a standard size (the "print" one) will surely be better. Unfortunately DPReview doesn't believe in assessing images at normalised output levels which is a huge flaw in their methodology.
 
ET2 said:
TrojMacReady said:
Too many assumptions, for example comparing results from different pre final jpeg engines from different tests, to conclude things about sensors .
Click to expand...
The OP will get a shock when he sees Nex-7 rated higher than Nex-5n on dxomark ;)

and I am putting my money on that.
Click to expand...
hmm..u know what ..ill take that bet and post official or u will stating i or u was wrong..how about that ..all in a friendly manner of course...

i really hope u win btw and the samples we saw so far turn out to be half baked firmware to be corrected.
 
TrojMacReady said:
Too many assumptions, for example comparing results from different pre final jpeg engines from different tests, to conclude things about sensors .
Click to expand...
there is no assumption the slrclub tested the ver 1.0 same as the original site we were talking about..and i am talking about the flower shots ..cause its the only site with ver 1.0.

either way usable 25600 on nex5N ..so even if A77 would want it cannot go there cause its 16000 ..no assumptions here.
 
NEX5N vs. A77, A65 and NEX7.

Well we will see later.

But the 5N if it has the same sensor as A580, A55, D7000, D5100, K5 has a very good sensor. And I am waiting for the DxO test of the 5N. Maybe the best mirrorless camera sensor.

But what I am really waitning for is DxO test of the A77 and NEX7.
The dynamic range at ISO 50 is one thing that will make me decide if I will get
an A77 or not.

I don't need 24 MP or 12 fps, so for me it is other features that are more important. Video mode with full exposure control is very welcome, but dynamic range is also important. So I wait and see.

The NEX system is tempting, but not before a few more small lenses are available and I have seen what the NEX7 scores in test.

There should been a 6MP, 12MP and 24MP RAW mode. Would be very welcome for some people including me.
 
I recall that the RAW conversions for the A700 were pretty bad at the start (plus the infamous noise reduction applied at RAW level). I suspect that normalised) to the print output level we'll see a modest improvement on the A77 compared to the A55. It wouldn't be fair to compare the A580 with the A77 as there's the SLT mirror loss. For that it's probably best to compare it with the NEX 7.

I'll await results - I'm fairly confident. I think the difference will be marginal, but it will be there.
 
rinkos said:
TrojMacReady said:
Too many assumptions, for example comparing results from different pre final jpeg engines from different tests, to conclude things about sensors .
Click to expand...
there is no assumption the slrclub tested the ver 1.0 same as the original site we were talking about..and i am talking about the flower shots ..cause its the only site with ver 1.0.
Click to expand...
According to Sony there is no final production version yet, regardless of what their sample says. And still you're comparing different jpeg engines, as is obvious from the different approaches and artifacts. Not to mention the fact you're not accounting for the light loss due to the pellicle mirror, etc etc.
rinkos said:
either way usable 25600 on nex5N ..so even if A77 would want it cannot go there cause its 16000 ..no assumptions here.
Click to expand...
According to Sony the A900 was usable up to ISO 6400, even when shooting RAW. Yet it still beats/ performs equal to Sony cameras released after that which were rated up to ISO 12800.

Which goes to show the grain of salt that should be used here. And as for the rest, see above.
 
ET2 said:
TrojMacReady said:
Too many assumptions, for example comparing results from different pre final jpeg engines from different tests, to conclude things about sensors .
Click to expand...
The OP will get a shock when he sees Nex-7 rated higher than Nex-5n on dxomark ;)

and I am putting my money on that.
Click to expand...
Right behind you. :)

People forget how smart the people who build the cameras we use are.
 
Sometimes, the decisions aren't made by the engineers. The marketing team comes in and says, "we need more megapixels!" The engineers will comply.
 
rinkos said:
...
So i ask u this...why do i need so much MP if i cant crop it???
moreover at 16mp level i can crop ..
Click to expand...
Why would they answer that rhetorical question? IMO, you already replied to yourself: obviously, the NEX5N is for you, while the A77 is not... :D
Don´t tell me they´re different systems, you started the comparison yourself!

The A77 goes to ISO 25600 BTW; true, only in MS NR mode. It also goes down to ISO 50.
 
JasperD said:
rinkos said:
...
So i ask u this...why do i need so much MP if i cant crop it???
moreover at 16mp level i can crop ..
Click to expand...
Why would they answer that rhetorical question?
Click to expand...
didnt ask them i asked u ...i know what their motive was ..we all know

IMO, you already replied to yourself: obviously, the NEX5N is for you, while the A77 is not... :D
JasperD said:
Don´t tell me they´re different systems, you started the comparison yourself!
Click to expand...
but they are different and the 500$ nex should be at 3 times less the inferior one not the superior ..nor equal btw.
JasperD said:
The A77 goes to ISO 25600 BTW; true, only in MS NR mode. It also goes down to ISO 50.
Click to expand...
NR is as i know fully well owning an A580 a superb mode..yet its only for static objects...

i dont need high iso for static objects....i need high iso so i can get the shutter speed as up as i can to catch moving objects...

and i much prefer the HHT mode than NR mode FYI .

anyway point is yes ...non of the cams are with the Sony final version yet...

but when sony's own reps on the preview movies admit higher MP hurts IQ why should i look further?? why should i question it..

this is the 1080I vs 1080P discussion all over again..
 
It´s not a discussion, you are reacting on pre-production samples that don´t suit you. There is nothing to discuss really. Worse, whatever the final camera in production will be and deliver, there is nothing you can do about, except voting with your wallet. If you don´t like it by then, don´t buy it, it´s as simple as that.
 
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