A few shots with my K5 from todays shoot

M Kew said:

I am starting to think that what I like might not be what the majority of people likes.......

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Ah, but don't forget the one obvious fact: in the end, your clients had already seen and liked other photographs done in your unique style and admired them enough to hire you to shoot their family. As long as they are happy with the final product, and I suspect they are, the rest of us would be well advised to take a long hike off a short pier. The important thing to remember about rules is that (a) they were made to be broken and (b) there are way too many of them as it is. Go be young and take plenty of risks and just nod and smile at us old people--that's my best advice.

jsandjs said:

I've been thinking of getting a K-5 for a while and find this thread hitting 57 within 24 hours, so .... Then I realized that it was all caused by a unusual style of comment.
To what degree were those comments accurate as far as phototgraphy is concerned?

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I we ignore the style of the first- almost abusive - critical thread I'd say that its content was reasonably accurate. If you look at my posts further down the thread you'll see how I gave Melissa critique in, I hope, a more sensitive style but saying more or less the same things about the strictly photographic topics.

jsandjs said:

jsandjs said:

overblown sky

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True in the shots posted if not in the original RAW files.

jsandjs said:

jsandjs said:

oversaturated green (maxing the sat slider to make it 'POP' is a common noob mistake; stealing attention from the subject)

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To my eye it is yellows (which do, of course, cover greens) that are overdone in both saturation and luminance. But, yes, it is too much.

I don't think the critic's opinion as to why Melissa PPd this way are relevant.

jsandjs said:

jsandjs said:

no bokeh (portraiture with huge dof....)

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True.

jsandjs said:

jsandjs said:

intrusive signature (i hope you didn't put those in the actual print/digitals given to the client; not like its hard to remove anyway so it doesn't do anything if someone wants to steal these, which they won't because these have values only to those in the pics)

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Silly. Theft of intellectual property can be a big issue so many professionals deliberately mark their web postings this way. Despite what the cfritic thinks there have been documented cases of apparently innocuous family photos, and in any case it's a good habit to establish. The comment is irrelevant photographically and shows the critic's ignorance of what can happen in the world.

Note that the K-5 allows you to include your name and copyright notice into your image files but while that might help if you get the thief to court it can't stop people just grabbing your images.

jsandjs said:

jsandjs said:

the woman's fake toothy grin ala. cheshire cat

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This is plain offensive. If the lady's family like her the way she is the critic has no business objecting to it.

jsandjs said:

jsandjs said:

compositionally boring: the pic where they all look to the left is particularly awful

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Half true. The shots aren't outstandingly good but they do portray a family enjoying themselves.

--
---

Gerry


First camera 1953, first Pentax 1983, first DSLR 2006
http://www.pbase.com/gerrywinterbourne

Dear jonny1976,

I thank you for the time you took to look at my photos. The one thing you seemed to have missed when reading though all my posts in this thread is that I have never claimed to be a pro. I am a beginner who is learning as I go. I do feel that constructive criticism is necessary in the learning process. But for somebody who seemingly has a lot of photography experience you have really given me no constructive criticism other then to spend more money on buying gear and books. This I do not find to be extremely helpful. IMO having gear and books does not make you a fantastic photographer. They can be great learning aids and can help improve your photos but I think getting out there are taking photos is the best way for most to learn. Trail and error....

I am a strong person so I can take your comments and carry on but I think you should know that the so called constructive criticism that you and auway salaman have given will mostly just make people feel defeated and bad about themselves....... when people post for feedback they want help and making them feel horrible IMO is not particularly helpful.

FYI - telling me my photos are horrible and that I should refund client money is not helpful. The people who have graciously given me specific advice on how to work on the things I am lacking were helpful and that is what I am looking for. In future, feel free to comment but please at least make it constructive

If you haven't noticed..... photography is expensive. If people enjoy my photos and are willing to pay for them then I am going to take the money and make investments so I can improve and keep learning. I do not advertise. I never have. All my clients are word of mouth who have been to my sites and gone though my portfolio before hiring me.

I was purely posting these photos for some feedback on how to improve. If you read though all the posts you would see how much tact other people have. They have gotten their point clearly across and were still polite.

Apparently some people are amazing the first time they take a photo and don't need to work on anything?????

So I have decided I am pretty much done with this conversation at this point and will only be responding to people who have something constructive for me going forward.

To all those who have given me constructive criticism - I truly thank you since you are the people who are going to help me improve.

Melissa (aka truly frustrated)

jonny1976 said:

• u are not a pro but have clients, nisense im sorry. clients means work, work, means money, and if you have charged them money for this shot, better give them back
• in my opinion and frankly these shots lacks everything a portrait session must have. starting from the time of shooting and ending up to pp.
• learn learn learn, study more , buy book, and gear. reflector flash umbrella softbox.
• whle i agree that the guywas a bit harsh, it was right and maybe woken up you. personally i find much more bad for you the ultrapositie comment.

if nobody had given u that harsh comment you would have ended up believing your work was good , and as i said , it's not.

M Kew said:

auway salaman said:

these are mostly awful

the main problems in no particular order:

overblown sky

oversaturated green (maxing the sat slider to make it 'POP' is a common noob mistake; stealing attention from the subject)
no bokeh (portraiture with huge dof....)

intrusive signature (i hope you didn't put those in the actual print/digitals given to the client; not like its hard to remove anyway so it doesn't do anything if someone wants to steal these, which they won't because these have values only to those in the pics)
the woman's fake toothy grin ala. cheshire cat

compositionally boring: the pic where they all look to the left is particularly awful

3/10 for the lot

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Well I have to tell you, it is nice to get feedback when you are just starting out and want to improve and it is another to basically be told that your photos are horrible. I am going to try and shrug off your post because it seems to me that since you just joined the forum in the last 24 hours you have not picked up on how to respond to posts. I thought that this was a skill that we learned in childhood (common courtesy and being polite) but I guess not in your case.

There are soooooo many other ways your could have given your feedback without being a complete . I welcome feedback and you did have some good points but how you delivered your feedback you just made yourself look horrible!

I am just learning and all my clients know this when they hire me. They have seen my work and hire my based on it. I have never claimed to be a pro and am learning as I go.

And not that I need to explain to you but....... NO the signature is not on the actual photos! This is purely for facebook.

I guess some people need to put others down to make themselves feel better?

Melissa

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Thanks so much! This has brightened my day after reading all the negitive comments!

Melissa

Thanks! Good to get some positive feedback as well

Melissa

Thanks! The positive feedback is truly appreciated amongst all the negative!

Melissa

Thanks the positive feedback is so vitalizing!!!

Mel,

super response...just realize good ol' "jonny" has some serious, ahem, "short-comings" which are very obvious from the tone and content of ALL it's comments. Apparently It has to make up for things by trying to destroy others...great you responded as you have. Me? I have good 'ol "jonny" on the ignore list and will for the rest of my days, however long that may be.

--
Real men shoot Pentax because we were born with our own Canons!!
{Ok...ok, some of use just shoot with a PnS but it always makes me happy! }

im sorry i dont have any shortcomings.....u are the guys who answered me very harsh just because i suggested to use eye fi card for tethering, and now u come here doing a lesson of politeness?

jonny1976 wrote:

most of the best part of a tethering camera is not ontrolling the parameter from the computer, actually this is really helpful in some situation, but i personally won't bother myself with it. tethering is a way to have the photo in the video when u shoot, model or still life, and so have an idea of lighting setup, model position, etc..
i tried the eye fi card, and is brilliant.
tried a lot of the time the pentax remote with k20d and never beenn impressed.

the eye fi for having a real preview and fix thing for studio is simply amazing, and do everything you can expect from a tethered camera.

Seriously? SERIOUSLY???!! You think you are exposing us idiots here to something new that we never heard of before? I mean seriously? Every time this discussion comes up a well meaning person such as yourself comes along with "THE SOLUTION...EyeFi"...sigh....I simply no longer have the energy to explain how far off target you are with your understanding of WTF real tethering is and that the EyeFi card is not even close...it's simply a remote xfer appliance and has NOTHING TO DO WITH TETHERING...do a Google search and you'll find out why EyeFi is not a soltion to this issue.

personally i cannot ignore you becasue i dont care nothing of you. I dont' even consider you. UNderstand?

the op posted some paid shots. They have shortcoming everywhere, in my opinion is not only a problem of pointing some positive aspect, they simply are not good photography to be sold to somebody.

I could give her 100 suggestion, but simply i told her the best suggestion i could give at this point:

-buy book and some light modifier and try to understand them. It takes year to maste portraiture

Personally as i said i find for the op more useful even the harsh comment of suleiman, than all the no sense comments like yours. But it's pretty difficult to understand and judge photography if you don't have a clue of it, as you have showed.

brecklundin said:

Mel,

super response...just realize good ol' "jonny" has some serious, ahem, "short-comings" which are very obvious from the tone and content of ALL it's comments. Apparently It has to make up for things by trying to destroy others...great you responded as you have. Me? I have good 'ol "jonny" on the ignore list and will for the rest of my days, however long that may be.

--
Real men shoot Pentax because we were born with our own Canons!!
{Ok...ok, some of use just shoot with a PnS but it always makes me happy! }

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i told you what i think. In my opinion you are not ready to charge money from the photo you produce. This is the best suggestion i can give you.

The second invest in some books, study in the net there are tons of resources.Try to find a good photog and assist him.

You must understand lighting, when is good and no good to go out and take a photosession, what to do in overcast day to create more interesting photos, planned ahead for the session and that means a good location with good background, the clothes people wear during the session, which modifiers use and how to use, posing the people, makes them feel at ease and relaxed, compose the shot and be sure wb is right and exposure spot on, then post process the photo. But this takes months to leearn , not a post.
You can do it for sure.

Gerry Winterbourne said:

I we ignore the style of the first- almost abusive - critical thread I'd say that its content was reasonably accurate. If you look at my posts further down the thread you'll see how I gave Melissa critique in, I hope, a more sensitive style but saying more or less the same things about the strictly photographic topics.

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Thanks, Gerry. What you did is what I want from the dpr.

Another +1 for me on Mike M's question--I also wonder if this guy's handle might just be another name for Moon Cricket, who also seems to enjoy tearing people down and trying his level best to be an annoying troll? Sounds identical to me, or at least like they have been comparing notes on critique styles, eh? Cindy

fotografos said:

emem said:

... I was wondering if you signed up to this site purely to indulge your rather blunt style in this one post - or can we look forward to even more "disarmingly frank" posts in the future? And the question isn't whether your comments are accurate or not - the question is whether you're a rude sod or not! My vote is that yes you are - I wonder what others think?
--
Mike M. (emem)
http://www.veritasmea.com

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Well said Mike! I can't help but notice that the structure and toning of this post somehow seems familiar too, I could be wrong though

.bill

--


http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/billgekas
http://www.billgekas.com
http://billgekas.blogspot.com

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--
My PPG-- http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/cynthiafarr-weinfeld
http://www.cindysphotoquest.blogspot.com Portfolio: http://www.cfwphotography.com
flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/cfwphotography/

At first I think they are fine shots, after mike comments I do see it can be better with mike comments.

I think the color tone is very nice and natural - what did you use for pp and what settings you used? it looks very close to the jpg output from pentax camera.

The only 'problem' I see in these shots is they are more of a 'set-up' pose than natural interaction between the family members. Most great family photos, I think are captured in a more natural and relax setting. But I know it is difficult to have the family relax and 'just do what they usually do'.

One of the family photographer I like is 'Ling photography":
http://www.lingphotography.com/

Do you have a assistant?

Lee

I think a real positive is you got meaningful comments (albeit, some harsh). Most of the time on here comments are all positive, or the OP throws a tantrum when it gets negative comments.

These are not "great", but they're pretty good. Even though you've got some composition issues, exposure issues, wrong aperture, etc., you have succeeded in capturing the moment and the feel for this family. That probably will go a long way toward selling images to these types of clients.

....Compositionally they are OK. Some stronger than other. The last two are nice.. They are severely overexposed to the point of washing out. The sky and fellows blue shirt exhibit blown highlights. The skin tones are off....too pale from overexposure....probably because the red channel has clipped to a great extent.

Not sure why the EXIF shows a 5 stop positive compensation. If that's correct, then you may have been pulling the exposure in post processing the raws which resulted in the pale color cast and blown highlights.

Sorry I couldn't be more positive.

auway salaman said:

using a reflector on a back-lit subject will cause squinting.

not to mention shooting a back-lit subject is like stabbing your eye with an HIV tainted needle.

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Really? Some of the best work I see these days is backlit.

Me too!

Faintandfuzzy said:

auway salaman said:

using a reflector on a back-lit subject will cause squinting.

not to mention shooting a back-lit subject is like stabbing your eye with an HIV tainted needle.

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Really? Some of the best work I see these days is backlit.

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--
My PPG-- http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/cynthiafarr-weinfeld
http://www.cindysphotoquest.blogspot.com Portfolio: http://www.cfwphotography.com
flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/cfwphotography/

Hi Salaman. Perhaps you are new here or not? Fair is fair you critique Melissa I critique you. And it is merely my opinion so please be patient
--

auway salaman said:

these are mostly awful

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Are you certain this was the best way you could put this? Perhaps simply saying "you did not enjoy the series" or "you think they could improve the images with the following advice"?

auway salaman said:

the main problems in no particular order:

overblown sky

oversaturated green (maxing the sat slider to make it 'POP' is a common noob mistake; stealing attention from the subject)
no bokeh (portraiture with huge dof....)

intrusive signature (i hope you didn't put those in the actual print/digitals given to the client; not like its hard to remove anyway so it doesn't do anything if someone wants to steal these, which they won't because these have values only to those in the pics)
the woman's fake toothy grin ala. cheshire cat

compositionally boring: the pic where they all look to the left is particularly awful

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While I agree with some of your comments I disagree with others and most certainly question your perceived tone. Perhaps you did not intent it but your tone seems harsh without provocation.

I think these comments would have more impact if they were backed up with some creative ways she could improve the shots such as suggesting some levels/curves adjustment to add contrast to the background or using flash.

I also strongly object to the use of the term Noob in a derogatory way. We all start somewhere and in many respects you show many of these qualities when it comes to social interaction so who again appears the Noob?

I agree that the background is a bit bright but this can easily be edited. My initial impression is they are nice captures of a family who are very nice natural looking people so my focus was to the subject.

Bokeh does not make a shot so I disagree here.It is entirely subjective I know but it is not the be all end all. Since it is a wide shot bokeh might be nice but more so for a head and shoulders shot. Again some burning to darken the background might also help isolate the subject and create more pleasing blend.

I very well may be flamed for speaking my ming but I want the OP and others here to know where I stand on this at least. We all love Photography so I feel we should lift each other up. Even if this means tough love it does not need to be rude or dismissive.

auway salaman said:

3/10 for the lot

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perhaps we should rate you. What number would you expect to be appropriate?

I am truly sorry if I have offended you but I felt it must be said

Cheers
Roger

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7925236@N02/

auway salaman said:

well i have now also been called a low life.

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This is unfortunate. Im sure you are a good person and did not deserve that but honestly a bit hard to tell on first reading, Try on the other show for a bit.

auway salaman said:

note that in my original post, the worst thing i said was "these are awful". which they are btw. would you rather i call them "moderately below average"? well that would be lying and i rather not lie.

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Yes Moderately below average would have been better no question. Saying "these are awful" is equivalent to "these suck" Even an old sod is old enough to remember basic playgroud philosophy, you shove me I shove you back.

auway salaman said:

i have made zero personal attacks while having received many. so i can't see how i am in the wrong here.

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If you cant see it than that may be the problem. We are merely pointing it out. the people attacking you help prove this point. Stings a bit coming the other way doesn't it?

auway salaman said:

to the guy on a high horse saying that he's a judge and i'm a street scum, well i would hope that the pompousness is obvious to anyone else.

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Again you are not street scum that is not at all fair. However consider it took several posts for you too offer up any advice or help.

Is it perhaps possible you are also on a high horse? Why would an experienced Photographer come to a place of support and help and deliver harsh critique and withhold help only until prodded. Are you above judgement now that it is you that are under the microscope?

I do not wish to judge you at all. I do however object to all undeserved negativity and rudeness. If you want to be flippant ,dismissive or rude as a part of your online persona that is your right. But this comes with a certain stigma and tag if you will. Again I am just the messenger here and only wish to inform you will likely ignore this and carry on as you like.

The main thing is you eventually had some good suggestions and those are valuable so thanks. However it is in my opinion that calling her a "Noob" is a personal attack and you somehow think is cool or alloof. No im not "hurt" by you but why must me all endure this kind of rubbish just take the high road for goodness sake.

...Heres a hint im doing it right now can you tell? (not being facetious I really am)

Cheers
Roger

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7925236@N02/

Thanks Lee,

I used Camera raw and photoshop elements 8 for pp. All I did was retouch their skin, eyes, teeth a little and use layer masks to saturate the background colour. After reading though the posts I tried a few other edits and I ended up liking the photos better with less saturation (just as most had suggested). I didn't really change much. In one of my other posts I put the SOOC photo is you want to see the difference.

The family asked me to do both posed shots and candid shots. I took about 250 photos and posted about 150 of them in a private gallery to choose from before editing so that they could choose exactly how many posed and how many candid they would prefer. I still haven't edited the photos they choose yet and when I do I will keep all the suggestions on here in mind

I dont have an assistant so it can be challenging to jump up and down to get babies to look and quickly snap a good shot at the same time! lol

Melissa

LFLee said:

At first I think they are fine shots, after mike comments I do see it can be better with mike comments.

I think the color tone is very nice and natural - what did you use for pp and what settings you used? it looks very close to the jpg output from pentax camera.

The only 'problem' I see in these shots is they are more of a 'set-up' pose than natural interaction between the family members. Most great family photos, I think are captured in a more natural and relax setting. But I know it is difficult to have the family relax and 'just do what they usually do'.

One of the family photographer I like is 'Ling photography":
http://www.lingphotography.com/

Do you have a assistant?

Lee

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