There won't be any D400 - DX format

Slapbass said:

...is something almost nobody realised. Maybe - MAYBE - Nikon will stop producing the D300 semi-pro DX line on behalf of a new line mixing the D90 and D300 lines, so we have a new and only camera like the D7000.

I insist I wish I would be wrong, if a new DX semi-pro camera is released, I will be the first feeling happy!

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Your "theory" is wrong. Calling the D300 a "semi-pro" is a proof of that. Nikon has no "semi-pro" cameras. Also, it is not so unique “theory” at all.

The D7000 is not a mixture of D90 (consumer) and D300 (pro) models, it is a camera which simply replaced the D90. I can not for my life understand how it can be so difficult to see that simple fact and make such fuzz about this. Whatever will replace the D300s, it will be another pro model in DX format, and the D7000 is not the one. This is very clear.

Congo1 said:

I hope not, and I really doubt that, there are plenty pro's that shoot nature, I don't think they are waiting for a full-frame, and a DX pro-body is better for heavy lenses than the D7000 body. (plastic mount)

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Of course there will be another DX pro model.

Anyway, the D7000 does not have plastic mount. A few lenses have, but no cameras. The D7000 is a camera in plastic housing on metal frame and definitely with metal bayonet mount.

One thing is that Nikon DEFINITELY thinking that should they go to EVF way also as Sony has done. Sony made a bold move when they started to make EVF DSLR:s and also NEX line without a VF. Now when the new semi-pro EVF Sony is out, we will see how good the EVF can be now a days...

If its truely good, then we might see also a Pro FF with EVF.. that would be interesting to see.

Nikon and Canon seems to me playing "who go first" game, so probably they are ready to make the move, but they need to be 100% sure that the move will be right.

Congo1 said:

At the moment I'm thinking of an extra body....I have the D7000 (and have no complains about that one ;-) ) I was thinking of a more pro body like the D300s, but now the rumors start again, I was wondering if it would be better to wait for de D400.

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Nobody can say for sure (well, someone must know, but if they say anything, they will have to kill us all ) . I say unless you must absolutely have a second body tomorrow morning, why not use what you have now and wait and see?

Congo1 said:

How about diffraction with more mpx? Or is this just an issue with DX lenses?

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Do you have a diffraction problem now with your DX lenses on your 16 MP D7000? Or are you just propagating the usual myths?

JC
Some cameras, some lenses, some computers

A D400 will come, it might be a D500 but it will be DX.
--
Regards,

Arree

Like to see some pic's ?
http://picasaweb.google.nl/Arretje56/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/13935871@N04/

nemofin said:

One thing is that Nikon DEFINITELY thinking that should they go to EVF way also as Sony has done.

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Based on what?

nemofin said:

Sony made a bold move when they started to make EVF DSLR:s

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A load of fanboy bunk. Sony is abandoning traditional DSLRs because Sony has no cohesive plan and is desperately looking for a way to increase market share. There are a lot of Minolta/Sony users who are not happy at all that the flawed pellicle mirror design is going to be their only option when using Minolta, Sony and Zeiss AF lenses; EVF is a gimmick that appeals to amateurs and beginners who view it as an improvement of the rather poor OVF they're accustomed to using, it is also primarily needed for how Sony is implementing AF in video mode and vividly shows how still photography is being harmed by the current fixation with video-in-DSLR.

nemofin said:

Now when the new semi-pro EVF Sony is out, we will see how good the EVF can be now a days...

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I feel sorry for Sony users, Sony left their A700 users high and dry for well over a year and continue to make promises that someday they'll get a replacement. Now it's starting to look like Sony may make the same boneheaded move with their A850/A900 users. As for the "semi-pro" designation, it fits Sony's best offerings (don't get me wrong, I like my A850 a lot) and it fits the D7000, but it doesn't describe a D300/D300s, and it doesn't describe what a D300s replacement will be.

Also, the A55 shows just how poor the EVF still is compared to a good OVF. It only sees darkness when you attach a flash or use studio strobes to the camera, it jitters when you pan with it, it forces you to see your camera's image settings instead of the actual scene, and the pellicle mirror induces ghosting in some circumstances and uses 1/3 of the light that would otherwise be going to the sensor (that's giving up 1/3 of a stop of light, which isn't insignificant). One has to wonder if the "A77" will manage address any of these issues, but it certainly will not address all of them.

nemofin said:

If its truly good, then we might see also a Pro FF with EVF.. that would be interesting to see.

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More likely we will see the few pros and serious amateurs using Sony start defecting -- I know that I'm having serious doubts about the future of the Sony system based on this.

nemofin said:

Nikon and Canon seems to me playing "who go first" game, so probably they are ready to make the move, but they need to be 100% sure that the move will be right.

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Take it back to the Sony forum, the fanboys over there love this sort of fanciful speculation.

Slapbass said:

Reading Nikon ads and publications like Nikon Pro about the D7000, including it as a semi-pro camera and saying that "is not the D90 succesor", my thought is that the D7000 is the D300s successor. So maybe the D7000 is the actual -and only- DX flagship. Don´t you agree?

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When reading posts like these I almost always get odd flashbacks from a classic Monty Python movie scene, one with a dropped sandal ...

Anyway, I actually do think you look at this issue from the wrong angle. Stop worrying so much about language subtleties in marketing material and look at the bigger picture ... And most probably a bigger picture consiting of more pixels ...

The D7000 has in many ways been cannibalizing on D300s sales, which is not ideal, but probably not something Nikon excecutives loose to much sleep over. What they probably do however miss considerable amount of sleep over is lost Nikon sales in their favourite market segment - to Canon Eos 7D. This segment has for a long time been a monemaking segment for Nikon, think D100, D200 and D300 and all the nice high margin lenses owners of these cameras tend to buy.

In short, after dominating this profitable serious enthusiast market segment for several years, Nikon need to up the ante to make the 7D look a bit lame for its price. Just like Nikon did with Eos 30D, 40D and 50D who did indeed look a bit under-featured and over-priced compared to D200 and D300.

There are plently of very interesting rumours flying around about new upcoming Sony sensors. So very probably a potential D400 would have a sensor up and beyond the one in D7000. But even if it does stick with that (excellent!) sensor, a D400 would need to be a significant upgrade to compete with Eos 7D. And I think the amount of upgrade we saw between D90 and D7000 might be a hint of how much upgrade Nikon would want to do between D300s and a D400.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every moment of it!

By the way, film is not dead.
It just smell funny

n057 said:

Congo1 said:

At the moment I'm thinking of an extra body....I have the D7000 (and have no complains about that one ;-) ) I was thinking of a more pro body like the D300s, but now the rumors start again, I was wondering if it would be better to wait for de D400.

Click to expand...

Nobody can say for sure (well, someone must know, but if they say anything, they will have to kill us all ) . I say unless you must absolutely have a second body tomorrow morning, why not use what you have now and wait and see?

Click to expand...

Oh yes, i'm intend to wait for the D300s succesor

n057 said:

n057 said:

How about diffraction with more mpx? Or is this just an issue with DX lenses?

Click to expand...

Do you have a diffraction problem now with your DX lenses on your 16 MP D7000? Or are you just propagating the usual myths?

JC
Some cameras, some lenses, some computers

Click to expand...

I don't have a diffraction problem, but you are right....someone on a dutch Nikon forum started about diffraction problems with higher mpx sensors.

But the truth is, currently everybody is guessing. You might have guessed correctly.

lock

nemofin said:

One thing is that Nikon DEFINITELY thinking that should they go to EVF way also as Sony has done. Sony made a bold move when they started to make EVF DSLR:s and also NEX line without a VF. Now when the new semi-pro EVF Sony is out, we will see how good the EVF can be now a days...

If its truely good, then we might see also a Pro FF with EVF.. that would be interesting to see.

Click to expand...

We will see plenty of EVF:s in the future, for sure. But I rather think you first see it in a smallish "luxury compact" segment first. Bigger sensor then traditional compacts, but still a very compact system.

Then later we might see smallish mirrorless with APS-C in the consumer segment.

And then, even further into the future, we might actually see something towards the enthusiast segment ... But it will be a while and the pro segment will probably be the last to go EVF.

Why? mainly because no EVF solution today is even remotely close what most pro users want and to what a good OVF can offer. The main argument for EVF as for now and for a while will be smaller-lighter-cheaper. There are many advantages with EVF, also for pro use, but again, performance is just to bad at the moment.

nemofin said:

Nikon and Canon seems to me playing "who go first" game, so probably they are ready to make the move, but they need to be 100% sure that the move will be right.

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Seem like a fair point. Canon and Nikon have so far had the least motivation to go EVF and in general try out new designs - they are doing and have been doing pretty well with the current design concept. Unlike some of their competitors that just could not get a substantial foothold in the traditional DSLR market and had to go in new directions to stay alive.

Problem is if they wait for to long, they might be in for a rude shock once they try a market where others have already made substantial claims.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every moment of it!

By the way, film is not dead.
It just smell funny

The equation is not difficult. If Canon already has an equivalent to the 7000 and already has an improvement on the 300s )or is about to release one) which might otherwise be considered the equivalent to what Nikon brands the 400...then you can bet your house on the fact that Nikon will release one as well. If there is a gap in the market, Nikon wll not simply hand it over to its competitor.

I wonder if Nikon is planning to release a DX format camera with with D300s like build quality but with a higher pixel count. I use both the D700 and D300 and find myself using the D300 more because I shoot wildlife and love the extra reach.

I'd buy a " D400" DX in a heart beat if Nikon releases one. If the D400 is released as FX I'm not sure what I'll do. I use a Nikon 24-70mm 2.8 lens on both camera's but like the 105mm range on the D300 for portraits. The same lens on the D700 is a great landscape lens.

The camera world is changing fast and I think predictions are too tough to call.

olyflyer said:

Your "theory" is wrong. Calling the D300 a "semi-pro" is a proof of that. Nikon has no "semi-pro" cameras. Also, it is not so unique “theory” at all.

The D7000 is not a mixture of D90 (consumer) and D300 (pro) models, it is a camera which simply replaced the D90. I can not for my life understand how it can be so difficult to see that simple fact and make such fuzz about this. Whatever will replace the D300s, it will be another pro model in DX format, and the D7000 is not the one. This is very clear.

Click to expand...

Not so simple as you might see, Nikon says the D7000 "is not a substitute of the D90. It makes a new class on its own". More than 3 years and no D300/ D300s substitute... So we can start to think there would be no replacement for the D300s. But I would prefer you were right and I would be wrong...
--
http://www.ramonvaquero.com

Slapbass said:

Not so simple as you might see, Nikon says the D7000 "is not a substitute of the D90. It makes a new class on its own".

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Marketing people always fire off nice phrases like that

Looking at the pricing (which says a lot about market position) then the D7000 really is a D90 replacement. Adjusting for some currency fluctuations, it sits squarely where the D70, D70s, D80, and D90 was positioned in the beginning of their life cycles.

Ramon Vaquero said:

More than 3 years and no D300/ D300s substitute...

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Ehum? The D300 appeared more then 3 years ago and was then replaced by the updated D300s which added a range of new features. Dont let Nikons odd naming scheme confuse you

Ramon Vaquero said:

So we can start to think there would be no replacement for the D300s.

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Looking at the update cycles of D100 -> D200 -> D300 -> D300s it seem likely a new model will appear somewhere late 2011.

As soon as there is more then 6 months between models some people seem to get into panic mode and start shouting "Nikon has given up this segment". Don't worry, this is a very profitable market segment, and Nikon will not give it up anytime soon ...

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every moment of it!

By the way, film is not dead.
It just smell funny

The D300 was the only real photographers camera Nikon made, and it is not easy to replace it.
You can screw every Nikon lens on it and it will work fine.
They need to come with a real successor for the D300 this time.

We expect higher buffer, user interface might improve little, more pixels, higher ISO.

But send your pics to the internet directly after shooting should be nice, build in GPS, and I see more room for improvement.

I believe pictures will not become much better in daylight, only pics made in lower light(studio), and pic made at higher ISO with more noise you will see improvement.

I dont believe everybody wants to zoom every picture to 300 X it size, unless you want to print your photo's doorsize.

Quality of the lenses will remain the same, and photoshop seems to get more and more important.
Always feel don't know enough.
--
Regards,

Arree

Like to see some pic's ?
http://picasaweb.google.nl/Arretje56/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/13935871@N04/

Slapbass said:

...Nikon says the D7000 "is not a substitute of the D90. It makes a new class on its own".

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Marketing, pure and simple.

Ramon Vaquero said:

More than 3 years and no D300/ D300s substitute... So we can start to think there would be no replacement for the D300s.

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As I said in another reply to you (which you either ignored or didn't comprehend), the same can be said for the D3, so based on that is the D7000 also the replacement for the D3?

Ramon Vaquero said:

But I would prefer you were right and I would be wrong...

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You can add Thom Hogan to the many here who strongly believe you are wrong:

"...is this the D90 replacement or isn't it? Nikon says it is not. But I think they're being disingenuous here. The camera is sized and shaped like the D90, it continues and extends the D90 feature set, it comes in at about the same price point (adjusted for currency changes), and it clearly is directed at the same crowd that made the D90 a huge success. So why didn't Nikon say that the D7000 is the D90 replacement? Simple: they don't have enough D7000 bodies to sell in the short term and they've got plenty of D90 cameras left to sell. So, until the D7000 production ramps up to fill demand and the D90 inventory disappears, we have the D7000 slotting in slightly above the D90 in the Nikon DSLR lineup. (Note that the same thing was true of the D3100 and D3000 as I was writing this review.) But make no mistakes: the D7000 is the D90 replacement. When we get to the middle of next year and more of the lineup has refreshed, that should be clear. Just as the D90 sat at the top of the consumer DSLR lineup, so, too, will the D7000." From his review of the D7000 here: http://www.bythom.com/nikond7000review.htm

Grevture said:

As soon as there is more then 6 months between models some people seem to get into panic mode and start shouting "Nikon has given up this segment".

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Right. Those are the "gear blamers". There will always be new models, as soon as the D400 is out, or soon after, I suppose Nikon will release a replacement for the D7000... It's an endless circle, and some people will just never be happy.

Grevture said:

Don't worry, this is a very profitable market segment, and Nikon will not give it up anytime soon ...

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Right again. The only problem which Nikon may face this time and which is different from before is the earthquake/tsunami/nuclear disaster, all at once. That has never happened before and we don't really know how it will affect the future and the replacement of D300s.

...it says so much of your polite ways

It seems you did not understand a word of what I'm saying. This is NOT my wish but my fear. And hope this is not true.

Don't understand many people get angry about my theory. Let's wait to Nikon's August big announcement...
--
http://www.ramonvaquero.com

Slapbass said:

Call me a fool...it says so much of your polite ways

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No, it's simply being blunt, especially given your repeated foolish assertion. Consider for a moment what it means to be fooled, and put that in the context of Nikon's assertion that the D7000 is not a replacement for the D90. If Nikon wants to fool people by claiming the D7000 is not the replacement for the D90 then it stands to reason that it is foolish to believe that in light of the obvious facts that show otherwise (see the quote from Thom Hogan's D7000 review in my previous reply to you about those obvious facts).

Ramon Vaquero said:

It seems you did not understand a word of what I'm saying. This is NOT my wish but my fear. And hope this is not true.

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I understand every word you are saying, but do you understand any that I have said? You are being unreasonably afraid, and honestly answering these four questions should assuage your fears and be the end of this thread:

1.) The D7000 is obviously the replacement for the D90, saying otherwise goes against the widely held consensus in this forum as well as what Thom Hogan has written, so you are saying you know or see something we don't?

2.) If the D7000 is the replacement for the D300s and you believe that Nikon is being forthright in what they say about the D7000, then why didn't Nikon say the D7000 would replace the D300s?

3.) If the timeframe since the D300 release leads you to believe there will be no replacement, then do you believe the D3 will also not be replaced?

4.) Will Nikon simply cede the niche filled by the D300s to Canon, or is Canon also going to abandon APS-C in a pro level body as well?

Ramon Vaquero said:

Don't understand many people get angry about my theory. Let's wait to Nikon's August big announcement...

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Here's a bet for you, when the "D4" is announced, I bet the "D400" is also announced (just like when the D3 and D300 were announced), and the "D400" will be a DX camera.

Slapbass said:

It seems you did not understand a word of what I'm saying. This is NOT my wish but my fear. And hope this is not true.

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My fear is that no matter what we say to reassure you, you keep up your fearmongering. Based on the way you are talking, many will make uninformed decisions, and will have you to blame :-D

-- JC
Some cameras, some lenses, some computers