Question about aperture for landscape photos

Sellwood

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I just read a book by a photographer who used a 35mm SLR (it's an older book) He liked to shoot everything at f22 to capture as much detail as possible.

Question: Do people still do that? Do you lose saturation of color by shooting with the aperture closed down like that? Your comments appreciated.
 
A bigger concern shooting at f/22 would be IQ deterioration from diffraction. I would say f/16 would be the maximum aperture for FF and f/8 for crop. It is lens dependant to a certain extent.

Bill
I just read a book by a photographer who used a 35mm SLR (it's an older book) He liked to shoot everything at f22 to capture as much detail as possible.

Question: Do people still do that? Do you lose saturation of color by shooting with the aperture closed down like that? Your comments appreciated.
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img7d
 
I just read a book by a photographer who used a 35mm SLR (it's an older book) He liked to shoot everything at f22 to capture as much detail as possible.
Usually a rather silly thing to do. At f/22, the effects of diffraction softening greatly degrade the photo. Furthermore, the slower shutter speed at such an aperture would likely greatly increase the degradation due to motion blur if there were any kind of breeze at all.
Question: Do people still do that? Do you lose saturation of color by shooting with the aperture closed down like that? Your comments appreciated.
You usually want to make sure the whole of the scene is within the DOF for a landscape, and it is very unlikely that you would need to stop down to f/22 for that.

What you want to do is choose the aperture that gets the scene within the DOF and is also as close to the sharpest aperture as possible (keeping in mind that the sharpest aperture depends on how much you want to balance sharpness in the central region with sharpness in the corners).

In general, the deepest you really want to go is f/16 on FF, but f/11 is likely better, and f/8 is probably optimal with the better lenses (even f/5.6 with some). Subtract a stop from those figures for 1.6x.
 
He could perhaps get away with that by not showing his photographs at very large sizes. If you just intend to share small online jogs you could get away with this, too.

Hoever, if you do critical work or produce large prints there is a very good chance that you will not be happy with the loss of fine detail due to diffraction blur when you stop down beyond about f/16.

Dan
I just read a book by a photographer who used a 35mm SLR (it's an older book) He liked to shoot everything at f22 to capture as much detail as possible.

Question: Do people still do that? Do you lose saturation of color by shooting with the aperture closed down like that? Your comments appreciated.
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G Dan Mitchell - SF Bay Area, California, USA
Blog & Gallery: http://www.gdanmitchell.com/
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With full frame the image degradation at f/16 is negligible. I have plenty of quite large prints done on FF at this aperture that do not have resolution issues.

I would not generally shoot at that aperture without a good reason, but if I need a bit more DOF or a longer exposure time I don't hesitate to use it.

Dan
I agree. I shoot most of my landscape pictures at f/8 and f/11 and seldomly at f/16. That's on 35mm FF. I find that IQ is degrading noticeable at f/16 and seriously at f/22.

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Hans Kruse
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G Dan Mitchell - SF Bay Area, California, USA
Blog & Gallery: http://www.gdanmitchell.com/
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/gdanmitchellphotography
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Gear List: Cup, spoon, chewing gum, old shoe laces, spare change, eyeballs, bag of nuts.
 
With full frame the image degradation at f/16 is negligible.
It depends on how you define "negligible". The 16-35 / 2.8L II, for example, shows a 17% loss of resolution in the center from f/11 to f/16 that tapers off to basically the same resolution in the corners:

http://www.dpreview.com/lensreviews/widget/Fullscreen.ashx?reviews=43&fullscreen=true&av=3&fl=35&vis=VisualiserSharpnessMTF&stack=horizontal&&config=LensReviewConfiguration.xml%3F2
I have plenty of quite large prints done on FF at this aperture that do not have resolution issues.
What that tell us is that a 17% resolution differential does not have a noticeable impact on IQ at the size you print.
I would not generally shoot at that aperture without a good reason, but if I need a bit more DOF or a longer exposure time I don't hesitate to use it.
If you need the DOF, then you need the DOF. But that additional DOF comes with a rather hefty price in terms of resolution, especially from f/16 to f/22.
 
With full frame the image degradation at f/16 is negligible. I have plenty of quite large prints done on FF at this aperture that do not have resolution issues.

I would not generally shoot at that aperture without a good reason, but if I need a bit more DOF or a longer exposure time I don't hesitate to use it.
Uhm, that's not very logical is it? If the resolution loss is negligible, then why do you hesitate to use f/16? In fact the resolution loss is quite visible, however I also do use (as mentioned) f/16 when needed for DOF. Otherwise I use f/8 and f/11 which are most of the time plenty.

See also http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/resolution.shtml where you can see that at f/16 the resolution at best will be 7MP on FF. At f/11 it is 16MP which is acceptable, but in 100% view it is quite visible that you loose resolution also at f/11 compared to f/8. At f/16 this corresponds to the difference between a very good lens and a mediocre lens.

--
Kind regards,
Hans Kruse
Home Page -- http://www.hanskrusephotography.com , http://www.hanskruse.com
Workshops -- http://www.hanskrusephotography.com/workshops

Facebook Photography http://www.facebook.com/pages/Hans-Kruse-Photography/271477435625
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I print to 24 x 36 inches. I currently going through a bunch of recent work from Death Valley, quite a bit of which includes near/far compositions that worked better with larger DOF.

I can produce excellent large prints from full frame originals shot at f/16. While you could perhaps detect a difference in sharpness via side by side careful comparisons of 100% crops on the screen, you would most certainly not look at one of my 24" x 36" prints from an f/16 original and remark, "Looks soft to me!"

So, my definition of negligible is that the effect on prints at the sizes I produce is either invisible or so small that no one but me will even notice it, and thus worth using the smaller aperture for gains in other areas of the image such as increased DOF in images that require it.

The notion that I am being illogical by claiming that resolution loss is negligible and then not always shooting at f/16 is just silly. There are a number of factors that go into selecting an aperture for a particular shot, and the selection of an aperture is always a compromise of one sort or another. Shooting at any aperture other than the one you deem to be sharpest might, I suppose be "illogical," but I don't look at it that way. Maximum resolution is not always my reason for selecting aperture, but when those other considerations don't apply I typically shoot at f/8 or f/11 by default.

I generally avoid f/22 unless my subject is one in which absolute sharpness is not the highest goal and/or lengthening the exposure or getting a bit more DOF trump the resolution issue.

Arguing "theory" and "logic" is pretty pointless when my decisions are made on the basis of photographic results in prints. And I can say without reservation that f/16 works great on full frame DSLRs.

(For those whose tastes run more towards "tests," I have one for you: http://www.gdanmitchell.com/2007/04/12/sharpness-and-aperture-selection-on-full-frame-dslrs - and, yes, the difference between f/11 and f/16 in the 100% magnification crops I show there is negigible .)

In the end, I shoot photographs and make prints - I don't shoot tests and make hypotheses.

Take care,

Dan
With full frame the image degradation at f/16 is negligible. I have plenty of quite large prints done on FF at this aperture that do not have resolution issues.

I would not generally shoot at that aperture without a good reason, but if I need a bit more DOF or a longer exposure time I don't hesitate to use it.
Uhm, that's not very logical is it? If the resolution loss is negligible, then why do you hesitate to use f/16? In fact the resolution loss is quite visible, however I also do use (as mentioned) f/16 when needed for DOF. Otherwise I use f/8 and f/11 which are most of the time plenty.

See also http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/resolution.shtml where you can see that at f/16 the resolution at best will be 7MP on FF. At f/11 it is 16MP which is acceptable, but in 100% view it is quite visible that you loose resolution also at f/11 compared to f/8. At f/16 this corresponds to the difference between a very good lens and a mediocre lens.

--
Kind regards,
Hans Kruse
Home Page -- http://www.hanskrusephotography.com , http://www.hanskruse.com
Workshops -- http://www.hanskrusephotography.com/workshops

Facebook Photography http://www.facebook.com/pages/Hans-Kruse-Photography/271477435625
Workshop Newsletter signup http://eepurl.com/bA0Pj
--
---
G Dan Mitchell - SF Bay Area, California, USA
Blog & Gallery: http://www.gdanmitchell.com/
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/gdanmitchellphotography
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdanmitchell/
Twitter: http://twitter.com/gdanmitchell
IM: gdanmitchell

Gear List: Cup, spoon, chewing gum, old shoe laces, spare change, eyeballs, bag of nuts.
 
Right on Dan! It's all about the image. Technical skills should allow a photographer to create an image without the distraction of a technical failing, be that poor resolution, out of focus, bad exposure or sub-standard printing.

Unlike everyone else on this post, I shoot frequently at f22, but then I only use prime lenses (eg TS-E 24 II/ 50 f1.4 etc) and often with a tripod. There are so many factors affecting the sharpness of an image and if I think f22 is going to give me what I want without noticeable loss of sharpness, then I'll use it. If the result is not so good it's usually not related to the aperture used.
 
The notion that I am being illogical by claiming that resolution loss is negligible and then not always shooting at f/16 is just silly. There are a number of factors that go into selecting an aperture for a particular shot, and the selection of an aperture is always a compromise of one sort or another. Shooting at any aperture other than the one you deem to be sharpest might, I suppose be "illogical," but I don't look at it that way. Maximum resolution is not always my reason for selecting aperture, but when those other considerations don't apply I typically shoot at f/8 or f/11 by default.
Well, I don't think it is silly to suggest that it was illogical ;) If you choose f/8 or f/11 then it is that you judge or calculate that the DOF is covering the entire landscape you are photographing and not selective DOF (I assume). So in that case it would simply be easier to choose f/16 to be on the safe side, right? But you don't, so I assume the reason is that you know you loose over half the resolution of your 21MP at f/16. Remember that on the 5D you only lost from 13MP down to 7MP which would not be much. But on the 5D mkII you loose all the extra resolution.
Arguing "theory" and "logic" is pretty pointless when my decisions are made on the basis of photographic results in prints. And I can say without reservation that f/16 works great on full frame DSLRs.
Your tests were done on the old 5D so I would suggest that you repeat the tests on your 5D mkII and see for yourself.
In the end, I shoot photographs and make prints - I don't shoot tests and make hypotheses.
I do not shoot much tests, but I do shoot tests like diffraction tests to see the effect and to what degree I should care about that. You can argue that you don't see it in prints, but I bet that you do, if printed tests at f/8, f/11 and f/16 at that size from your 5D mkII. Would the casual viewer see it? Probably not unless presented with the same scene at e.g. f/8. So does it matter? maybe not, but I assume it does to you. For some people it matters a lot. They go to the extreme to make as sharp photos as possible for them it does matter that diffraction takes quite some resolution at f/16.

--
Kind regards,
Hans Kruse
Home Page -- http://www.hanskrusephotography.com , http://www.hanskruse.com
Workshops -- http://www.hanskrusephotography.com/workshops

Facebook Photography http://www.facebook.com/pages/Hans-Kruse-Photography/271477435625
Workshop Newsletter signup http://eepurl.com/bA0Pj
 
Right on Dan! It's all about the image. Technical skills should allow a photographer to create an image without the distraction of a technical failing, be that poor resolution, out of focus, bad exposure or sub-standard printing.

Unlike everyone else on this post, I shoot frequently at f22, but then I only use prime lenses (eg TS-E 24 II/ 50 f1.4 etc) and often with a tripod. There are so many factors affecting the sharpness of an image and if I think f22 is going to give me what I want without noticeable loss of sharpness, then I'll use it. If the result is not so good it's usually not related to the aperture used.
Well, f/22 with the 24 TSE is resolving only 1125 lw/ph:

http://www.dpreview.com/lensreviews/canon_24_3p5_tse_c10/page3.asp

which ain't that much better than the 18-55 IS on a 40D wide open (assuming, of course, we're shooting a scene wide open that entirely falls within the DOF):

http://www.dpreview.com/lensreviews/canon_18-55_3p5-5p6_is_c16/page3.asp

So either your standards for sharpness are low, DPR's lens tests are botched, or lens tests don't give you any useful information.

Either way, might be worthwhile finding out which of the three it is.
 
I do limited testing myself apart from making sure all the gear is doing what I expect. I don't doubt any of the technical data many people in these forums quote with ease, it's just that, as Dan said, sometimes something has to give and if that's resolution so I can get max DOF to get the image I want, then so be it. I'd prefer to always shoot at f8 or 11, but that just ain't always practical. Just because something is pin sharp doesn't mean it's a great photograph. If resolution and just technical perfection is what "rocks your boat" then great. Some people have a different vision. By the way, I'm even liking the Hipstamatic App on my iPhone, though I have no idea what aperture I'm shooting at!
 
If you are happy with the results at f/22 then that's great :)

But it is a pity if you stop your fine TS-E 24 f/3.5L II down to f/22. I assume you know how to use the tilt to control and optimize the DOF so that you don't need f/22. Do yourself the favor to do some test shots at different apertures to see the difference.

In fact when I need a large DOF I often shoot the exact same scene at different apertures. On the tripod in Av mode I just change the aperture from e.g. f/8 at one stop interval down to e.g. f/16. When I'm at the computer I can check which aperture looks the best and include the DOF needed. I have an iPhone DOF calculator at hand when I need to calcualte the DOF in the field and I use live view to check the focus.

--
Kind regards,
Hans Kruse
Home Page -- http://www.hanskrusephotography.com , http://www.hanskruse.com
Workshops -- http://www.hanskrusephotography.com/workshops

Facebook Photography http://www.facebook.com/pages/Hans-Kruse-Photography/271477435625
Workshop Newsletter signup http://eepurl.com/bA0Pj
 
Thanks Hans. My process works most of the time since what I'm after are images with space, balance and often a bit of movement, but not distracting out-of-focus parts of the frame. I do like the idea of changing apertures as I work a scene, something I do on occasions when time permits. I'll check out that DOF app...sounds handy. Rgds
 
The notion that I am being illogical by claiming that resolution loss is negligible and then not always shooting at f/16 is just silly. There are a number of factors that go into selecting an aperture for a particular shot, and the selection of an aperture is always a compromise of one sort or another. Shooting at any aperture other than the one you deem to be sharpest might, I suppose be "illogical," but I don't look at it that way. Maximum resolution is not always my reason for selecting aperture, but when those other considerations don't apply I typically shoot at f/8 or f/11 by default.
Well, I don't think it is silly to suggest that it was illogical ;) If you choose f/8 or f/11 then it is that you judge or calculate that the DOF is covering the entire landscape you are photographing and not selective DOF (I assume). So in that case it would simply be easier to choose f/16 to be on the safe side, right? But you don't, so I assume the reason is that you know you loose over half the resolution of your 21MP at f/16. Remember that on the 5D you only lost from 13MP down to 7MP which would not be much. But on the 5D mkII you loose all the extra resolution.
In a photograph in which there is no photographic advantage from shooting at a smaller aperture, why would I? Your argument is roughly equivalent to asking why, if f/2.8 is wonderful on some lens, I don't always shoot at f/2.8.

In the end, it is usually virtually irrelevant that one particular aperture can be measured to produce some tiny increment better resolution than some other aperture. There is a whole range of reasons why this is the case, and the bottom line is that aperture selection is not usually (though there can occasionally be exceptions) about sharpness or resolution:
  • some apertures are sharpen in the center but softer in the corners. (Think f/5.6 on the 17-40)
  • some apertures are a bit softer in the center but better in the corners (think f/16 on the 17-40)
  • with some longer lenses you need to use even smaller apertures to maintain appropriate DOF than with shorter lenses
  • in some cases bringing objects not in the same plane of focus into better sharpness is more important than getting optimum focus on those in the plane of focus
  • in other cases optimal focus of a central object in the plane of focus is most critical and other objects should or can be less sharp
  • aperture (in combination with ISO) is also chosen to control exposure time - not only to shorten exposures when stopping motion is desired but also also to increase motion blur when that is the object.
Arguing "theory" and "logic" is pretty pointless when my decisions are made on the basis of photographic results in prints. And I can say without reservation that f/16 works great on full frame DSLRs.
Your tests were done on the old 5D so I would suggest that you repeat the tests on your 5D mkII and see for yourself.
Oh, come on. And, more to the point, there is no more diffraction in a print of a given size made from a shot on a 5D2 than there is in an image from a 5D. If you think otherwise, you don't understand how diffraction works.
In the end, I shoot photographs and make prints - I don't shoot tests and make hypotheses.
I do not shoot much tests, but I do shoot tests like diffraction tests to see the effect and to what degree I should care about that. You can argue that you don't see it in prints, but I bet that you do, if printed tests at f/8, f/11 and f/16 at that size from your 5D mkII. Would the casual viewer see it? Probably not unless presented with the same scene at e.g. f/8. So does it matter? maybe not, but I assume it does to you. For some people it matters a lot. They go to the extreme to make as sharp photos as possible for them it does matter that diffraction takes quite some resolution at f/16.
If you lived in the SF Bay area I would be happy to offer you the opportunity to closely inspect a number of my prints and see if you could determine which were shot at f/16 and which at other apertures on the basis of "sharpness."

Dan

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G Dan Mitchell - SF Bay Area, California, USA
Blog & Gallery: http://www.gdanmitchell.com/
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/gdanmitchellphotography
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdanmitchell/
Twitter: http://twitter.com/gdanmitchell
IM: gdanmitchell

Gear List: Cup, spoon, chewing gum, old shoe laces, spare change, eyeballs, bag of nuts.
 
In the end, it is usually virtually irrelevant that one particular aperture can be measured to produce some tiny increment better resolution than some other aperture. There is a whole range of reasons why this is the case, and the bottom line is that aperture selection is not usually (though there can occasionally be exceptions) about sharpness or resolution:
  • some apertures are sharpen in the center but softer in the corners. (Think f/5.6 on the 17-40)
  • some apertures are a bit softer in the center but better in the corners (think f/16 on the 17-40)
Indeed. However, at least with the 16-35 / 2.8L II:

http://www.dpreview.com/lensreviews/widget/Fullscreen.ashx?reviews=43&fullscreen=true&av=3&fl=35&vis=VisualiserSharpnessMTF&stack=horizontal&&config=LensReviewConfiguration.xml%3F2

there's no reason to choose f/16 over f/11 for that reason, and certainly not f/22.
  • with some longer lenses you need to use even smaller apertures to maintain appropriate DOF than with shorter lenses
This is true, but I never see anyone doing that in posted pics. That is, I don't think I've ever seen a pic from a 300 / 2.8L IS at f/8, much less f/11.
  • in some cases bringing objects not in the same plane of focus into better sharpness is more important than getting optimum focus on those in the plane of focus
Yes -- "appropriate" DOF. But, with the exception of macro, how often do people really need more DOF than f/16 on FF? That is, how many scenes are there that people want the whole of within the DOF, and even f/16 is lacking?
  • in other cases optimal focus of a central object in the plane of focus is most critical and other objects should or can be less sharp
Then you would just shoot at the sharpest aperture for the focal point (usually around f/5.6).
  • aperture (in combination with ISO) is also chosen to control exposure time - not only to shorten exposures when stopping motion is desired but also also to increase motion blur when that is the object.
True -- but then sharpness is not so much an issue in a photo where motion blur is central.
Arguing "theory" and "logic" is pretty pointless when my decisions are made on the basis of photographic results in prints. And I can say without reservation that f/16 works great on full frame DSLRs.
Your tests were done on the old 5D so I would suggest that you repeat the tests on your 5D mkII and see for yourself.
Oh, come on. And, more to the point, there is no more diffraction in a print of a given size made from a shot on a 5D2 than there is in an image from a 5D. If you think otherwise, you don't understand how diffraction works.
The 5D2 will never render less detail than a 5D for a given perspective, framing, and DOF, but the effects of diffraction softening will eat into the 5D2 advantage more quickly.
In the end, I shoot photographs and make prints - I don't shoot tests and make hypotheses.
I do not shoot much tests, but I do shoot tests like diffraction tests to see the effect and to what degree I should care about that. You can argue that you don't see it in prints, but I bet that you do, if printed tests at f/8, f/11 and f/16 at that size from your 5D mkII. Would the casual viewer see it? Probably not unless presented with the same scene at e.g. f/8. So does it matter? maybe not, but I assume it does to you. For some people it matters a lot. They go to the extreme to make as sharp photos as possible for them it does matter that diffraction takes quite some resolution at f/16.
If you lived in the SF Bay area I would be happy to offer you the opportunity to closely inspect a number of my prints and see if you could determine which were shot at f/16 and which at other apertures on the basis of "sharpness."
That's a good point. I wonder how much of this translates into the actual print. Just as all lenses and sensors are not equal, neither are all printers and paper. So, just as when photos are downsampled for web display we often can't see differences in detail between systems that capture different levels of detail, I wonder if differences in paper and printer have the same effect.

It would be very interesting to see photos of the same scene with the same perspective, framing, and DOF printed at various sizes with different systems, on different papers and different printers, scanning all those prints, and then comparing 100% crops of the scans.

That would be quite a project, but I think it might be rather eye-opening in terms of giving perspective to how the numbers in lens tests translate to the print.
 
I just read a book by a photographer who used a 35mm SLR (it's an older book) He liked to shoot everything at f22 to capture as much detail as possible.

Question: Do people still do that? Do you lose saturation of color by shooting with the aperture closed down like that? Your comments appreciated.
I personally will NEVER shoot smaller than F16 for the diffraction reason, my "typical" landscape setting is F8-F11, if I need all the DOF I want, I use the tilt function from my TSE 17 and TSE 24 II, that's one of the reason I got the TSEs, its abilities to maximize DOF without having to deal with image quality degrading due to diffraction, and of course for their overall superior optic quality and distortion control as well.
 
I'll bet you're talking about Art Wolfe's book. I had the same thought, but he was using film; nowadays people are pixel-peeping to the extreme. Depends on what you want as an end result. Sharpness ain't everything. My recent "dull" photos shot with an underwater D10 are some of the most watercolor-like.

Having said that, I usually restrict my aperature to f13 with my 5D.
 

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