olyflyer
Forum Pro
Body is not the problem. Lenses are demanding the size they demand. The image circle must be covered and the larger the sensor the larger lenses are needed.
BTW, what do you mean by somewhat bigger sensor ?
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Canon... please make the camera I desire...
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BTW, what do you mean by somewhat bigger sensor ?
Stephenbw
Senior Member
Comparing only the factors that support your contention renders the whole exercise futile. If, instead of camera width, you had chosen depth with equivalent zoom lens the diagram would look very different.
Not with equivalent zoom lenses they aren't.
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Stephen
olyflyer
Forum Pro
What mistake? That you can't compare camera bodies only? Or the fact that you can't compare lenses wich aren't producing the same image, in other words, not equivalent? The only mistakes I can see I made in this thread is...
- ...I entered into this thread. I should have stayed out of it because it is basically nonsens since it only takes one aspect into consideration.
- ...I have misinterpreted the information in the chart and thought it was some focal length value.
Where is Australia?
Why should I care about such comments?
SirSeth
Veteran Member
If Canon makes something in this segment, it will still very likely mean running two systems.
Nothing wrong with branching out or with staying with Canon if they give you want you want. But they don't so... It's not marriage man. You can buy a non-Canon now and a Canon later if they deliver as you hope. But hope doesn't make images now. I challenge you to discover the strengths that other companies offer. I've shot Canon and Olympus for years. They are great complements in my opinion.
Cheers,
Seth
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What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?
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wallygoots.blogspot.com
mrsfixit
Senior Member
I'll answer that one...
How about a 2/3 sensor?
How about an f2.0 "L" glass lens? How about a flip screen and a 7x zoom?
It's been done already by Canon. Then it was discontinued, and I don't think anything that came after it could match it.
Now that would be worth $500. The G12? Bah, just an overpriced P&S with nothing new to offer.
Candice in PA
tkbslc
Forum Pro
That's only about 7% bigger than 1/1.6" that they use now.
That would make it in the same size class as an APS-C DSLR with a good standard zoom.
So obviously it must have been a HUGE seller if Canon decided to chuck that line in the can.
I think the problem with the G12 is that Panasonic, OLympus and Samsung are offering similar cameras with fast lenses. F2.8-4.9 looks pretty lame next to f1.8-2.4, doesn't it? The G12 is a fantastic camera, but it needs a new lens to compete with the newer fast offerings. Heck, the new OLy XZ-1 seems to beat a DSLR with the standard f3.5-5.6 zoom.
mrsfixit
Senior Member
olyflyer
Forum Pro
Sure, why not? But do you think it would make such a difference?
Again, I have nothing against good stuff, but 7x zoom, starting at 28mm equivalent (7mm real focal length) going to 42mm (real) at a constant aperture of f2.0 sounds large and heavy(ish) and ....
...much more expensive than that.
Overpriced? I guess it depends on what you compare with and who you ask... Currently the G12 together with the P7000 are the best P&S cameras. The G12 wins because of the display and the controls.
But of course, if I could get "your" camera for $500, I'd get it no matter who makes it, assuming it is not bigger than the G12.
mrsfixit
Senior Member
It's still a step in the right direction, and it's feasible, unlike the pipe dreams of people who want APS-C sensors in a camera the size of a G12.
Seriously???? LMAO
The Pro1 had these specs, and it was nowhere near the size of an APS-C DSLR with kit zoom. And if you think it was, you've obviously never seen one.
Is the G12 a HUGE seller?
And for discontinuing the line, let's see:
Pro1: made in Japan, "L" glass, bigger sensor...
Seems that the camera was discontinued as more of a cost cutting move than anything else.
I have a G11. The G12 is a minor upgrade over the G11. I would not say the G11 is a fantastic camera. It's a tiny bit better in low light than my old A650, that's about the only advantage it has AFAIC.
But you're right about the lens. For a $500 camera, they could have at least equipped it with a f2.0.
Candice in PA
tkbslc
Forum Pro
You said 7x f2.0 zoom, not f2.4-3.5.
PaulRivers
Veteran Member
There is a certain minimum size that a lens probably has to be, but you can't tell it's not possible to put a lens that's bigger than necessary on a camera, right?
Judging from both the s95 and the p7000, both of which use the same sensor, it appears to me that the g12 - specifically the g12, not talking about other cameras - is a large bodied camera, and the lens they've decided to put on it is not the smallest lens possible for it's combination of lens and sensor size. There is a limit - I don't think the g12's lens size is at that limit.
So from the other cameras available that use the same sensor, it appears to me that on the g12 specifically, there is room for something more from the lens - maybe a sensor that's bigger than is currently on there but smaller than a dslr, or maybe better aperture values, or maybe better zoom - without increasing the size of the camera.
I just cannot believe that while the s95 can use the same sensor and be half the size, and that p7000 can be the same size and have significantly more zoom, and yet the g12 has the smallest lens possible for it's sensor size.
I've seen graphics of the size difference between the sensor that is in compact cameras, dslr's, full frame dslr's, etc and the physical size difference is rather large, there's room for a sensor size in between. I'm not "demanding" it, I'm not insisting on it, just saying if you could put a little bigger sensor in there and get a half stop better low light performance I would certainly be interested in seeing that.
mrsfixit
Senior Member
You're right- f2.4-3.5. My bad. ;-)
I'm thinking of the S95 with that f2.0... if they can put an f2.0 in a camera as tiny as the S95, there is no excuse for the bigger and higher priced G12 to not have it as well.
And I would be happy with a 3x or 4x zoom. I'm willing to compromise.
Candice in PA
olyflyer
Forum Pro
It's NOT an f2 lens. For crying out loud, it's an f2.0-4.9 and it stops down fast. It's also a 3.8x zoom, not a 5x like the G12. The G12 is a f2.8-4.5 lens, so it is actually faster where speed is needed most, not at the wide end. Of course, I'd prefer an f2 lens, but it would be too large on the G series.
No surprise to anyone, your geographic knowledge is legendaryWhere is Australia?
check this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp4iI59BfpQ
PaulRivers
Veteran Member
Your technical points are true, but that's terminology that's used - an f2.0 is any lens that does f2.0 anywhere in it's zoom range.
That's your opinion, though other people like myself would completely disagree - f2.0 is fast more useful at the wide end, the aperture goes up so much on the g12 that by the time you reach that level of zoom the aperture is so high it doesn't matter anyways.
Not saying that's it's definitely possible (without reducing the zoom to 105mm), but people would have said the same thing about how the s95 would be impossible as well before it came it. People would have said the sensor is to large, f2.0 on a compact is physically impossible, etc etc.
SirSeth
Veteran Member
Lovin' it! What can I say besides that I know where Australia is and wish I could visit.
--
What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?
--
wallygoots.smugmug.com
wallygoots.blogspot.com
--
What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?
--
wallygoots.smugmug.com
wallygoots.blogspot.com
Ahhrgh, don't give away the secret brother. We want it and we want it cheap
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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily accepting it. -Aristotle
The one serious conviction one should hold is that nothing should be taken too seriously.
...oh, and I see by the lack of responses that I am right yet again.
sarlo100
Senior Member
You'll likely get your answer with the next iteration of the G. The current lens isn't going to cut it in this market any longer, the XZ-1 is a smaller camera with an infinitely faster lens and most of the focal length of the G12. Granted, having image stabilization on the sensor instead of in the lens helps keep down the size, but consumers won't care. The Oly lets in well over double the light of the G, and that makes all the difference.
My personal predicition? The "G14" will have the speed of the old G6 (f/2-f/3), but the focal length will be 28-112. Sensor size will not change. Otherwise, it will keep the external controls of the previous models. Essentially, we'll be back to a modern G6 with wide angle.
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