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Which factor most impt for action/kids/low light?

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Forseti

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Hi all,

Another of my newbie musings...some of these things just keep occupying my brain esp at night...
I did ask couple days back abt exposure numbers and sensor size.
Had a few enlightening replies and am thankful for them.
In essence then, sensor size does not matter wrt exposure numbers.
Sensor size/quality matters, obviously for many other things.

As for action/kids (randomly moving ones esp), is the most impt factor in nailing a good shot the AF speed? and minimal shutter lag?

If so, then the fastest AF would be the Phase detect still, hence, the recommnendation of dslr's?

mirrorless aps-c cams as i understand uses contrast detect, which I understand is still slower than phase detect (although, the GH2 af is supposedly v fast too), hence, they won't perform as well? Would a good flash improve on this then?

Does sensor size on its own, matter in action/kids photography?

For low light, I suppose sensor size would matter a lot.
As does a lens which can let in more light, ie larger apertures.

just wondering again...sigh, it's making me lose a couple minutes of sleep these days
 
I would say using a lens with a large aperature is what is most important. The more light you can let shine on the sensor the better pics it will take in low light. It also allows you to use a faster shutter speed when taking action shots.
--
Canon EOS 60D
EF-S 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS
EF 70-300mm f/4-5.6 IS USM
 
Forseti said:
Hi all,

Another of my newbie musings...some of these things just keep occupying my brain esp at night...
I did ask couple days back abt exposure numbers and sensor size.
Had a few enlightening replies and am thankful for them.
In essence then, sensor size does not matter wrt exposure numbers.
Click to expand...
No, sensor size does not affect the EV number.

But with a bigger sensor you generally are able to use higher ISO before graininess sets in.
Forseti said:
Sensor size/quality matters, obviously for many other things.
Click to expand...
Not so much in bright day light.
Forseti said:
As for action/kids (randomly moving ones esp), is the most impt factor in nailing a good shot the AF speed? and minimal shutter lag?
Click to expand...
The most important factor is technique in handling the kids. In arranging such that even though there is action, you know where the freeze in the pose and the action is and you can predict that. Again, if they are moving headon to you vs across you. And so on.

Next you should have enough light. With enough light, you can use a faster shutter speed, your AF will be faster, your DOF will be deeper, your fps will be faster.
Forseti said:
If so, then the fastest AF would be the Phase detect still, hence, the recommnendation of dslr's?
Click to expand...
Yes.
Forseti said:
mirrorless aps-c cams as i understand uses contrast detect, which I understand is still slower than phase detect (although, the GH2 af is supposedly v fast too), hence, they won't perform as well? Would a good flash improve on this then?
Click to expand...
Any flash will need to recharge. You click, the flash goes off and then it needs time to recharge - that is dead time. The name brand premium flash have AF illuminators which help AF but that's assuming that your kids are near enough.
Forseti said:
Does sensor size on its own, matter in action/kids photography?
Click to expand...
Yes because you can use a higher ISO before it becomes grainy.
Forseti said:
For low light, I suppose sensor size would matter a lot.
Click to expand...
That's the third sentence in your post on sensor size. Are you trying to convince yourself of something?
Forseti said:
As does a lens which can let in more light, ie larger apertures.
Click to expand...
Yes. But a lens that can let in more light will also have a shallower DOF.

--



Ananda
http://anandasim.blogspot.com
https://sites.google.com/site/asphotokb

'There are a whole range of greys and colours - from
the photographer who shoots everything in iA / green
AUTO to the one who shoots Manual Everything. There
is no right or wrong - there are just instances of
individuality and individual choice.'
 
a cheap entry dslr with a fast lens will do wonders

cheap being relative

most modern point and shoots will do fine too

a dslr option might be a nikon d3100 with a 35mm f/1.8 af-s lens
 
People seem very reluctant to accept that it's purely and simply the amount of light available that's the most important factor.

And that means using a flash ought to be top of people's list of things to do.

People also don't seem to understand the importance of a focus assist lamp. On many cameras that have them this means raising the flash as it doubles as an assist.

A cheap bounce-capable flash ought to be top of people's purchase list. A slave flash for compacts is very useful. Even a very good flash is cheaper than most lenses, yet people rush out for lenses for indoor low-light shooting instead of getting a good flash.

--
StephenG
 
AnandaSim said:
Any flash will need to recharge. You click, the flash goes off and then it needs time to recharge - that is dead time.
Click to expand...
???

My flash (420ex) has a buffer and does not always need to recharge, depending on how hard you're working it.
 
Canon Dale said:
AnandaSim said:
Any flash will need to recharge. You click, the flash goes off and then it needs time to recharge - that is dead time.
Click to expand...
???

My flash (420ex) has a buffer and does not always need to recharge, depending on how hard you're working it.
Click to expand...
LOL. That's not quite the way electronic flashes work. Your flash doesn't have something (a "buffer") that all other flashes don't. The "buffer" you mention is just a capacitor...all flashes have one. The electronics in the flash unit work to keep the capacitor charged...the flash tube discharges and some of the electrons in the capacitor are discharged. If only a few electrons are missing, the flash unit may not even notice, thus not activate it's recharging circuitry. With a partially charged capacitor, the flash can still fire and with TTL, it results in a properly exposed picture. No magic...that's the way they work.

--
Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700, Sony R1, Nikon D50, Nikon D300
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info

"If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin."
-Samuel Adams, 1776
 
chuxter said:
LOL. That's not quite the way electronic flashes work. Your flash doesn't have something (a "buffer") that all other flashes don't.
Click to expand...
I should have said it may not require "dead time" to recharge between shots if you're not working it hard. I expect all other external flashes work this way, although I haven't ever used a built-in flash that this was true of.
 
Go to a camera store with your kids (if they are old enough) and try different cameras (Sony, Nikon, Canon, Olympus etc.) with the kids running around. See how the various cameras perform using the optical viewfinder, electronic viewfinder or live-view. Use the camera as you would if you bought it. You may have to go to several stores. Have the store print a few pictures that you took with the camera

For me I wanted a DLSR that had fast live-view capabilty becasue I was going to use it mostly for taking pictures of my family (2 kids: 4 and 6).

The internet is fine, but actually holding and using the camera is something that the interet can never replace.
 
As you say people rush for fast lenses instead of the much cheaper option of a bounce capable flash. Perhaps many of them have, like me, found that flash never looks as natural as available light?

Kevin
 
sjgcit said:
People seem very reluctant to accept that it's purely and simply the amount
of light available that's the most important factor.

And that means using a flash ought to be top of people's list of things to do.

People also don't seem to understand the importance of a focus assist lamp.
On many cameras that have them this means raising the flash as it doubles as
an assist.

A cheap bounce-capable flash ought to be top of people's purchase list.
A slave flash for compacts is very useful. Even a very good flash is cheaper
than most lenses, yet people rush out for lenses for indoor low-light shooting
instead of getting a good flash.
Click to expand...
I couldn't disagree more.

With the some lenses you can do more with less light. With some cameras you can do more with less light. Put the two together (sensitive camera with bright lens) and you can take better pictures in 1/8 the light compared to the other guy.

Imagine we have the same camera. You have an f/4-5.6 zoom lens while I have f/2.8 zoom lens. If we both zoom in, then my lens lets in 4x as much light. I can shoot at 1/500 of a second while you are stuck at 1/125. Now if your camera's sensor requires a stop higher ISO to produce the same image quality you're down to 1/60.

I hate flash photography. I agree that it's sometimes necessary, but I use it as a last resort. I have two cheap swivel/bounce flashes I bought many years ago. I think I paid $15 each, used. They'll put out enough light to bounce from a gymnasium ceiling, if necessary, and at low power they can shoot 8 frames at three fps.

Oh, and you don't need focus assist if you manual focus. ;-)
 
Canon Dale said:
chuxter said:
LOL. That's not quite the way electronic flashes work. Your flash doesn't have something (a "buffer") that all other flashes don't.
Click to expand...
I should have said it may not require "dead time" to recharge between shots if you're not working it hard. I expect all other external flashes work this way, although I haven't ever used a built-in flash that this was true of.
Click to expand...
Built-in flashes are so low powered, they don't often have a reserve.

--
Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700, Sony R1, Nikon D50, Nikon D300
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info

"If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin."
-Samuel Adams, 1776
 
BobSC said:
I hate flash photography. I agree that it's sometimes necessary, but I use it as a last resort. I have two cheap swivel/bounce flashes I bought many years ago. I think I paid $15 each, used. They'll put out enough light to bounce from a gymnasium ceiling, if necessary, and at low power they can shoot 8 frames at three fps.
Click to expand...
I can explain your hatred...two reasons:
  1. You don't know how to properly setup a flash to look "natural"...
  2. You are using cheap, used, dinosaur flashes!
--
Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700, Sony R1, Nikon D50, Nikon D300
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info

"If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin."
-Samuel Adams, 1776
 
chuxter said:
I can explain your hatred...two reasons:
  1. You don't know how to properly setup a flash to look "natural"...
  2. You are using cheap, used, dinosaur flashes!
Click to expand...
Touche!

Well, you might have a point, but -- I bet you a quarter that the light that comes out of my dinosaurs is indistinguishable from the light that comes out of yours -- the difference is you let a computer pick the quantity while I use my brain. I'll grant you that your computer is probably faster.

As far as setup, it's not that complicated. There are two variables -- the direction you point it, and the amount of light you let out of it. Unlike many simple bounce flashes I see today (especially the "cheap" ones you advocate, my flashes can be rotated to bounce in vertical mode, or even to fire backwards.

The nice thing with digital photography is you can see the results right away and adjust accordingly. In the old days we needed to go back to the darkroom and process the film to see the results, so it was kind of important to learn how to use the gear to get the desired effect the first time -- there generally aren't "do-overs" in photo journalism.
 
BobSC said:
chuxter said:
I can explain your hatred...two reasons:
  1. You don't know how to properly setup a flash to look "natural"...
  2. You are using cheap, used, dinosaur flashes!
Click to expand...
Touche!

Well, you might have a point, but -- I bet you a quarter that the light that comes out of my dinosaurs is indistinguishable from the light that comes out of yours -- the difference is you let a computer pick the quantity while I use my brain. I'll grant you that your computer is probably faster.
Click to expand...
Not only is it faster, it works in a "closed loop" manner...sorta. My "smart" flashes test the water by a tiny pre-flash, look at the results, and then decide what flash duration will produce the look that I told it I wanted. My brain is involved, but it's not doing nuts and bolts stuff...it's involved in creating an image.
BobSC said:
As far as setup, it's not that complicated. There are two variables -- the direction you point it, and the amount of light you let out of it. Unlike many simple bounce flashes I see today (especially the "cheap" ones you advocate, my flashes can be rotated to bounce in vertical mode, or even to fire backwards.
Click to expand...
I do not advocate "cheap" flashes...read again?

But there are more than two variables with flash photography:
  1. The variables to expose the background (aperture and exposure time)
  2. The variables to expose the foreground (flash duration and direction)
  3. The variable to control the motion in the background and foreground (exposure time)
And that's just with one flash...I use 2 or 3 most of the time, so it gets complicated quickly. I need a computer to help me.
BobSC said:
The nice thing with digital photography is you can see the results right away and adjust accordingly. In the old days we needed to go back to the darkroom and process the film to see the results, so it was kind of important to learn how to use the gear to get the desired effect the first time -- there generally aren't "do-overs" in photo journalism.
Click to expand...
I agree. That's the advantage of my "smart" flashes...once you get them set, you get good results w/o having to "chimp"!

--
Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700, Sony R1, Nikon D50, Nikon D300
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info

"If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin."
-Samuel Adams, 1776
 
It's obvious to me: The most important factor in successfully taking pix of young kids is a camera's ability to quickly focus on them and track them, so you can take a burst of shots. A bright lens can be trumped with high sensitivity. Low light can be pummeled with a flash unit. Low sensitivity (and high noise) can be fixed with NR. All those variables are important, but no one stands out as being essential.

But if you can't focus and keep that focus, your pix will be terrible!

--
Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700, Sony R1, Nikon D50, Nikon D300
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info

"If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin."
-Samuel Adams, 1776
 
chuxter said:
It's obvious to me: The most important factor in successfully taking pix of young kids is a camera's ability to quickly focus on them and track them, so you can take a burst of shots. A bright lens can be trumped with high sensitivity. Low light can be pummeled with a flash unit. Low sensitivity (and high noise) can be fixed with NR. All those variables are important, but no one stands out as being essential.

But if you can't focus and keep that focus, your pix will be terrible!
Click to expand...
Hey all!
Tks for the lively discussion, I certainly enjoyed it.
Tks for sharing ur experiences.

Chuxter: Tt's what I've been pondering abt, the ability to quickly focus and track..seems to be the most impt part of it.
Bright lenses, good lighting (natural/flash) would greatly help tt process.
Larger sensor size for better ISO settings would help too right?

I'd quite prefer a smaller cam though, but all the above discussion leads to a good dslr, fast lens, and perhaps a good flash (tt's another 'deep' area to learn).

Tks again, lovely knowledge and experiences shared...much appreciated
 
Canon Dale said:
AnandaSim said:
Any flash will need to recharge. You click, the flash goes off and then it needs time to recharge - that is dead time.
Click to expand...
???

My flash (420ex) has a buffer and does not always need to recharge, depending on how hard you're working it.
Click to expand...
The way a flash works is that when you click, it pushes out light, draining the capacitor. The moment the capacitor is anywhere less than oh, 99% full, the flash electronics WILL recharge the capacitor. It may take a breath or it may take a few seconds but the flash electronics will recharge. If you use brute force, a newbie who does not understand will hold the shutter release down, expecting that the camera will shoot whatever fps repeat rate that the camera manual says. I would expect that unless you are direct forward facing blasting at the subject at 3 ft, by about the second or third frame, you would have dead time.

But how good are your shots with your flash direct forward facing? Many people use diffusers or shoot bounce flash. That takes a whack of energy and light from any flash unit. Go to a wedding registry in a colonial turn of the century building where the ceiling is not at 8 ft but much higher and with dark wood panelled walls and even by the first burst, you have expended all your capacitor energy.

--



Ananda
http://anandasim.blogspot.com
https://sites.google.com/site/asphotokb

'There are a whole range of greys and colours - from
the photographer who shoots everything in iA / green
AUTO to the one who shoots Manual Everything. There
is no right or wrong - there are just instances of
individuality and individual choice.'
 
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