One more Sony rumor regarding cameras...

This one is not from a photographer or even the marketer of a camera, but rather from a stock analyst who recently spent time examining Sony.

His comments were that Sony has decided that to get share of market for the top of the market they have to build a Sony base internally from the bottom and the middle markets. They don't believe they can pull others away from other high end cameras by just building ones as good or better.

His final comment was that Sony wants to be known as the "best" in digital imagery, but in order to fund that market they have to be very profitable in the good and better market down below.

Perhaps I'm putting 2 and 2 together to get 5, but it looks like NEX is a perfect example of that strategy.

NEX provides very good IQ in a small body that allows everyone with any kind of old DSLR lens basically to hook up via open technology adapters for manual focus, but the best hook up is old Minolta or Sony "A" mounts and of course their inherent "E" mount.

NEX is already showing that people with heavy investments in other lens systems are picking up a NEX for it's size and using some of their old lenses on it. NEX is bringing people from other systems for reasons other than just a better camera. If adapters continue to get better then the focus will be on camera IQ since any lens you own can work on it and the whole market for market share changes over night. History is set aside.

It's a different camera and a new way of thinking in some ways for photographers at all ability levels.

The stock analyst's comments seemed logical, but only time will tell.

This is what I've been saying for months to everyone complaining about the plethora of entry and midrange cameras Sony has unleashed.

Just because they have been making sure to get many entry and midrange cameras out there, doesn't mean an A7xx and an A9xx isn't on the way.

Sony know the importance of offering a proper upgrade path and a complete system.

Old Pirate said:

It's a different camera and a new way of thinking in some ways for photographers at all ability levels.

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and not suited to everyone. I'm sure I'm not the only long-sighted photographer who can't use this sort of camera without switching to reading glasses to view the screen, which would make it painfully slow to use. Viewfinders are essential for some ... more heavily represented by those who are somewhat older than the average, have paid off the mortgage, and whose kids can fend for themselves - those that can afford to buy new cameras
--
mike
http://mypicks.efikim.co.uk

Jens_G said:

This is what I've been saying for months to everyone complaining about the plethora of entry and midrange cameras Sony has unleashed.

Just because they have been making sure to get many entry and midrange cameras out there, doesn't mean an A7xx and an A9xx isn't on the way.

Sony know the importance of offering a proper upgrade path and a complete system.

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and to really go for the true professional market also requires a professional support infrastructure - rapid local service, loan cameras, lenses and bodies available for hire for specific needs
--
mike
http://mypicks.efikim.co.uk

With Sony there is ego. They used to be the best in TV. Now they are bit behind on TV and they are striking back with 3D on all front.

The high end will still got new product but the update may not be as fast as Canikon will do. The lower-end to mid will be updated aggressively and will feature new things that will be very new and innovative to dSLR.

Again, here they miscalculate the effect of video especially on reviewer. All current Sony's dSLR will have no video as a cons in the review. If they just make a video like canikon do they will be in better shape.

I am still waiting for the 24fps 14MP video from Sony's dSLR that each frame can become still photo (no RAW) that they dream on. Maybe on that day I will accept the fact that video in dSLR is a must. There is no use to shoot 60fps 1920x1080 video and take 1 frame as still photo.

I'm 61 and need reading glasses to see a digital screen at this range. I can use my A700 or A100 and see the image through the view finder easily, but when I want to review what I've done I have to put the reading glasses on to see the digital display so in some respects its no different for me.

What I have learned to do is trust my camera in AF mode and my ability to hold it correctly and look at the images later. I'm betting most of the shots I would take using a NEX would be done that way too.

I was just before pulling the trigger on a 70-300 G but now I wrestle each day with what to do. I have a Tamron 70-200 2.8 and 200-500. I used to have a 75-300 Sony, but it was so soft I never really used and sold it, but I liked the range.

I also like the idea of a small camera with the IQ of my A700 too.....in spite of what some say...suddenly Sony is giving me all kinds of choice dilemmas.

Old Pirate said:

This one is not from a photographer or even the marketer of a camera, but rather from a stock analyst who recently spent time examining Sony.

His comments were that Sony has decided that to get share of market for the top of the market they have to build a Sony base internally from the bottom and the middle markets. They don't believe they can pull others away from other high end cameras by just building ones as good or better.

His final comment was that Sony wants to be known as the "best" in digital imagery, but in order to fund that market they have to be very profitable in the good and better market down below.

Click to expand...

Old Pirate said:

Perhaps I'm putting 2 and 2 together to get 5, but it looks like NEX is a perfect example of that strategy.

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This is actually very old news and probably based on statements from Sony people made about the time the a100 came out, if not before that. I remember their statements then. It was clear from the beginning that's how Sony would have to do it. Nothing to do with the NEX which is a different branch of their product line and not the line leading to advanced DSLRs that they would have been talking about then.

The problem is that Sony has produced beginner DSLRs which have attracted folks new to DSLRs. And many of those folks are ready to move up and Sony is not keeping up. They should be steadily supporting the mid and upper end of DSLRs now and are not doing a good job there. The lack of the a700 replacement has scared off a lot of new folks and is a gap that breaks their plan. And the NEX is quite frankly not the path upward except within P&S/Consumer cameras.

Walt

Old Pirate said:

I was just before pulling the trigger on a 70-300 G but now I wrestle each day with what to do. I have a Tamron 70-200 2.8 and 200-500. I used to have a 75-300 Sony, but it was so soft I never really used and sold it, but I liked the range.

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This is the problem a lot of DSLR people have, and the NEX cannot substitute for the behavior of Sony with mid and upper range DSLRs. Having only beginner DSLRs will not cut it.

Old Pirate said:

I also like the idea of a small camera with the IQ of my A700 too.....in spite of what some say...suddenly Sony is giving me all kinds of choice dilemmas.

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The a7xx will almost certainly have much better capability and IQ than the NEX. It's only a very temporary thing that the IQ of the NEX is in the position it is. The a700 is a couple generations older sensor and processing than the NEX. That the NEX only comes around equal on some types of shooting is a indication how much less a camera it is vs a mid range DSLR like the a700.

For those advancing to the upper levels of DSLR the NEX's niche is a secondary small camera. Substituting for the P&S camera that most DSLR users have for when they don't want to cart the DSLR for some reason. Sony themselves state that. And also state that is a small part of the main P&S/Consumer Cam up-graders that the NEX is aimed at.

Walt

the trouble is its hard to judge the framing without a viewfinder if you can't focus on the screen!

I rarely look at the back of the A700 when I'm out, everything I need is in the viewfinder (we coped with film, after all!) - as a bonus I probably get more shots per battery!
--
mike
http://mypicks.efikim.co.uk

mike532 said:

mike532 said:

It's a different camera and a new way of thinking in some ways for photographers at all ability levels.

Click to expand...

and not suited to everyone. I'm sure I'm not the only long-sighted photographer who can't use this sort of camera without switching to reading glasses to view the screen, which would make it painfully slow to use. Viewfinders are essential for some ... more heavily represented by those who are somewhat older than the average, have paid off the mortgage, and whose kids can fend for themselves - those that can afford to buy new cameras
--
mike
http://mypicks.efikim.co.uk

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you do not need to have paid off your mortgage to buy expensive stuff.
you do not even need a mortgage at all, or having kid in college.

there are plenties of people on their thirties and forties that can afford good stuff.

what I'm sain.. there are a lot of "young" people that have disposable income.

Exactly my thoughts too. This is what Sony has said since they entered the DSLR marked.

Seems like they are a bit late with offering something to the core users/advanced users that came from Minolta -- the KM 7D and A700 users.

hanugro said:

With Sony there is ego. They used to be the best in TV. Now they are bit behind on TV and they are striking back with 3D on all front.

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Don't improve the core quality but dazzle them with smoke and mirrors, that's become Sony.

hanugro said:

The high end will still got new product but the update may not be as fast as Canikon will do. The lower-end to mid will be updated aggressively and will feature new things that will be very new and innovative to dSLR.

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Canikon continuously has mid to high end DSLRs to sell. Sony has gaps, no mid, and their "advanced" is not. It's less a matter of speed than of having product at all.

hanugro said:

Again, here they miscalculate the effect of video especially on reviewer. All current Sony's dSLR will have no video as a cons in the review. If they just make a video like canikon do they will be in better shape.

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It's unlikely that video will increase sales of their upper end DSLRs. Shut up reviewers, until they come up with a whole bunch of cons to whatever video Sony has. As they are already beginning to do with the NEX camcorder.

hanugro said:

I am still waiting for the 24fps 14MP video from Sony's dSLR that each frame can become still photo (no RAW) that they dream on. Maybe on that day I will accept the fact that video in dSLR is a must. There is no use to shoot 60fps 1920x1080 video and take 1 frame as still photo.

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The pellicule camera, is likely where you will see higher full still photography FPS, maybe something like 15FPS with AF that can keep up with that. It will be the "UZI" of still photography to the "Sniper rifle" of the a7xx and up DSLR. Me, I prefer the "Sniper Rifle" to the "UZI".

Walt

Nordstjernen said:

Exactly my thoughts too. This is what Sony has said since they entered the DSLR marked.

Seems like they are a bit late with offering something to the core users/advanced users that came from Minolta -- the KM 7D and A700 users.

Click to expand...

Or their DSLR beginners who are ready to be in the same group and have to go to other brands. What is the use of building from the bottom if the end result is to be a revolving door to other brands?

Walt

Old Pirate said:

His comments were that Sony has decided that to get share of market for the top of the market they have to build a Sony base internally from the bottom and the middle markets. They don't believe they can pull others away from other high end cameras by just building ones as good or better.

Click to expand...

I've always believed this would be Sony's big problem. Pros are willing to switch if it makes sense for their business, but you'd need a big system (huge investment up front) to lure most away from C/N's extensive offerings, support, availability, rentals, etc. Enthusiasts, OTOH, are more brand loyal and rarely switch. I'm not sure how many people buy their first DSLR at midrange versus upgrading from entry level, but if Sony is going to gain market share, they probably need to concentrate on new buyers, not "switchers".

OTOH, most consumers Sony is aggressively targeting are never going to go high end. They're 1-2 lens kit buyers. I think the low priced 35/1.8 and 85/2.8 are smart ... they might lure more consumers than a high priced 85/1.8, especially with Sony's "easy choice" marketing that makes it clear "this lens is for you". But growth via bottom up is going to be slow.

I can see Sony going after the low end while reducing r&d at the high end for a while until they have more business and a better ROI. If that means 3-year product cycles, so be it. They just can't afford to lose trust by being too quiet (when they haven't established trust yet) and by going prolonged periods of time with no current offering. They need to build, then maintain a relationship with system owners, and they also need to show an upgrade path. They might sell entry level kits to moms & dads, but few of them will buy much more. OTOH, they might sell entry level kits to newbies with a bidding interest in photography, but not if the system looks like a dead end.

Old Pirate said:

NEX is already showing that people with heavy investments in other lens systems are picking up a NEX for it's size and using some of their old lenses on it.

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Aside from quibbles over details (UI, 16mm lens selection), all of which could become moot points if Sony plans to roll out a higher end body and more lenses, NEX was a brilliant move by Sony. They're stuck in a rut where DSLR market share is going to grow slowly if at all - here's a brand new, hot market, with only Oly & Panny dabbling in it and all the room in the world to gobble up market share before things get crowded. What they need to do IMO is build the system fast ... micro 4/3 has users with growing collections of pricey lenses ... those users won't be switching so quickly when Canon or Nikon come out with something. But a $699 NEX kit is only a little more expensive than a G11 ... it can be viewed as a high end p&s, something that can be sold for a small loss if the grass looks greener elsewhere.

Old Pirate said:

If adapters continue to get better then the focus will be on camera IQ since any lens you own can work on it and the whole market for market share changes over night.

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I think people with legacy (35mm) lenses are going to prefer a bigger sensor as a general rule of thumb for the closer-to-1X crop factor.

An interesting and reasonable take that helps set expectations for Sony. The test AFAIC is whether the A7xx looks like a "high end Alpha" (i.e. something designed along the lines of classic enthusiast cameras, with easy access to controls) or closer to an A550 (a "luxury consumer camera"). Not that the latter isn't perfectly capable; I just hope to see Sony maintain at least a minimal product line dedicated to photographers with more demanding needs.

• Dennis

--
Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com

WaltKnapp said:

The a7xx will almost certainly have much better capability and IQ than the NEX. It's only a very temporary thing that the IQ of the NEX is in the position it is. The a700 is a couple generations older sensor and processing than the NEX. That the NEX only comes around equal on some types of shooting is a indication how much less a camera it is vs a mid range DSLR like the a700.

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This is kind of silly. If the next generation a700 can't beat the NEX then something has gone badly wrong. What do you expect the a7XX to cost?

They are different products targeting different segments of the market.

The fact that a NEX can compete with the image quality of a relatively high-end product still in wide use despite its far smaller size and cost says an awful lot about what Sony has been able to achieve with the design.

The NEX isn't about setting some kind of new image quality record, it is about putting impressively high image quality in an incredibly compact and relatively inexpensive package. This is a very attractive feature set to many people.

I know what a NEX is designed for and I don't see it as a substitute for a lot of what I want a DSLR for, but for just a "pick up and go" it raises the standard greatly above that of a P&S in terms of IQ.

So my real dilemma right now is simply do I want that 70-300 G high IQ range for my DSLR or do I want a small DSLR quality camera for times when having a camera is nice, but lugging one isn't.

Which desire is more important to me? I refuse to finance any photography equipment so I buy as I go so which one is most important? A few months ago it was the 70-300 versus 70-200 2.8 and the latter won out.

I think there is a place for a NEX type camera in the bag of every photo enthusiast regardless of what brand they shoot or what brand of NEX type camera they choose to buy. It's a niche camera that does fill a desire, if nothing else, that a lot of people have.

Jens_G said:

This is what I've been saying for months to everyone complaining about the plethora of entry and midrange cameras Sony has unleashed.

Just because they have been making sure to get many entry and midrange cameras out there, doesn't mean an A7xx and an A9xx isn't on the way.

Sony know the importance of offering a proper upgrade path and a complete system.

Click to expand...

I agree. The NEX does not offer a direct move-up for those using A-mount lenses. Especially as you'll lose AF, and stabilization. Sony still needs to make A-mount lenses. Plus, the fact that they are still coming out with FF sensor designed lenses, it would indicate that Sony will still support FF bodies.

My take on the situation is that Sony will come out with a blockbuster DSLR within the next two years, if not sooner. By this I mean an full-frame A-mount DSLR that will carry the A1000 moniker.

At least, that is my hope.

Jens_G said:

This is what I've been saying for months to everyone complaining about the plethora of entry and midrange cameras Sony has unleashed.

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I've been saying it for years. Sony can't win over die-hard Canon or Nikon pros and experts. And there's no such thing as arriving too late to the party, or the boat having sailed. There are literally millions of new users globally every year, and Sony know they have to get their fair share of those users. This annoys some of the old guard, but they already gave us the A700, the A850 and the A900 - plus enough Zeiss and G lenses to satisfy anyone but the most demanding, and making paupers of anyone but the most well-off.

stop thinking like someone who is use to old style DSLR's. The DSLR is changing, and what you as an old time shooter want will be far different from newer users want. You keep talking about sony missing the boat but i believe its you thats missing it. Times are changing like it or not,and soon the DSLR as you know it will be gone, at least under the sony label.

WaltKnapp said:

Nordstjernen said:

Exactly my thoughts too. This is what Sony has said since they entered the DSLR marked.

Seems like they are a bit late with offering something to the core users/advanced users that came from Minolta -- the KM 7D and A700 users.

Click to expand...

Or their DSLR beginners who are ready to be in the same group and have to go to other brands. What is the use of building from the bottom if the end result is to be a revolving door to other brands?

Walt

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--

Sony a500 - Sigma 10-20 - Minolta 28/2.8 - Sony 50/1.8 - Zeiss 16-80 - tamron 70-200/2.8 - extension tubes - Kenko teleplus300 1.4TC - HVL42 (x2)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lylegenykphotography/

cyainparadise said:

My take on the situation is that Sony will come out with a blockbuster DSLR within the next two years, if not sooner.

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This is my take on it too. Something is brewing at Sony, under high security. but they will not tip their hand until the appropriate time.

They will not disappoint.

The world waits.....

-= C