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Is that amount of "snow-like" noise normal for 7D? Sample images inside

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Grummbeerbauer

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Hi everyone,

I recently got my 7D, and I am very pleased with its features and performance. However, I have some gripes about image quality with high ISO images. I naturally do not expect an 18MB crop camera to be free of noise, and I am actually quite pleased with the level of the "usual" noise as I know it from my 450D, where "usual" means the colorful pixel "spray" which can be found in the darker portions of images.

What really puts me of, however, is the large number of red and even white dots that show up already at ISO 800, get worse at 1600, and are really a problem at 3200 and beyond. I never noticed anything like this with my 450D, and it gets worse once I set sharpening to anything higher than 0 in DPP. DPP's noise reduction will only get rid of the effect with excessively high settings that blur any image detail into oblivion.

I am unsure if this is a problem with my specific camera, or if it is the normal high noise behavior of a 7D. Below you find two 100% crops of two "closed cap" images, the first at ISO 1600, the second at ISO 3200, which hopefully show the effect:





I would like to have your input on whether this amount of white specs is normal for this camera model or not. If other 7D owners could post pictures created with the same test setup (i.e. ISO 1600 and 3200,

Of course the problem not only shows up in these artifical test setups, but is at times already well apparent even when viewed full-screen (i.e. not at 100%) on a 1920x1200 screen).

I would really like to like this camera so I hope this is some weired sort of sample variation. I still have a few days left of my 14 days no-questions-asked return period, so please give me your input on whether this is normal or not.

Regards

Grummbeerbauer
 
No comments by anyone?
 
Those two black frames look great to me. Quite frankly, they look so good I wonder if you didn't just post to empty frames. Did you post the right images?

All cameras have noise. ALl cameras have substantial noise at ISO 3200. This noise will be particularly visible in shadow areas, or in large monotone areas like skies.

I strongly suspect you're being paranoid.

Take a similar image with both of your cameras at ISO 3200 and see which looks better viewed at the same size. UNless you usually shoot the inside of your lens cap, and look at 100% crops of it, then this test isn't very meaningful.
 
To be honest it took me a moment to see what you were talking about. On my monitor your images look black unless I stand up and look at the screen from an angle.

The noise you are seeing is normal at those ISO's. That's just how the camera and the techology is at this time.
 
Grummbeerbauer said:
Hi everyone,

I recently got my 7D, and I am very pleased with its features and performance. However, I have some gripes about image quality with high ISO images. I naturally do not expect an 18MB crop camera to be free of noise, and I am actually quite pleased with the level of the "usual" noise as I know it from my 450D, where "usual" means the colorful pixel "spray" which can be found in the darker portions of images.

What really puts me of, however, is the large number of red and even white dots that show up already at ISO 800, get worse at 1600, and are really a problem at 3200 and beyond. I never noticed anything like this with my 450D, and it gets worse once I set sharpening to anything higher than 0 in DPP. DPP's noise reduction will only get rid of the effect with excessively high settings that blur any image detail into oblivion.

I am unsure if this is a problem with my specific camera, or if it is the normal high noise behavior of a 7D. Below you find two 100% crops of two "closed cap" images, the first at ISO 1600, the second at ISO 3200, which hopefully show the effect:

I would like to have your input on whether this amount of white specs is normal for this camera model or not. If other 7D owners could post pictures created with the same test setup (i.e. ISO 1600 and 3200,

Of course the problem not only shows up in these artifical test setups, but is at times already well apparent even when viewed full-screen (i.e. not at 100%) on a 1920x1200 screen).

I would really like to like this camera so I hope this is some weired sort of sample variation. I still have a few days left of my 14 days no-questions-asked return period, so please give me your input on whether this is normal or not.

Regards

Grummbeerbauer
Click to expand...
I think you are expecting too much. Your results look pretty clean to me. Did you do this same test and compare this to your 450D. I do a test like this with all of my cameras when I get them to look for clumps of hot pixels. Every camera I have had has had noise at ISO 1600 and 3200. I only get concerned if I have large clumps of hot pixels. My 50D and 7D were the cleanest of all of the ones I had tested. A 1 second exposure with the lens cap on is going to show significanlty more noise than most "normal" exposures that you would do, so I really think you should not worry about it.

Jim
 
HotspurJr said:
Those two black frames look great to me. Quite frankly, they look so good I wonder if you didn't just post to empty frames. Did you post the right images?
Click to expand...
Positive, those are the correct images. On both my monitors at home and at work the look a lot more like "starry night" (with lots of red dwarfs and some red supergiants) then "inside of lens cap".

However, I meanwhile made a comparison with my 450D (which only goes to ISO 1600 anyway) and it looks pretty much the same here, with a minor advantage for the 450D over the 7D at 1600. In particular the red blobs on the 7D appear to be quite a bit bigger on average than those produced by the 450D when both are viewed at 100%. Given the higher res of the 7D, I think they end up roughly on par.

I also went ahead and tried out the 7D sample in my local electronics retail, and the result looked pretty much the same, so at least its not an issue with my specific sample.

Since I really really LOVE the 7D with respect to virtually any other aspect (mine also seems to focus properly, unlike the one I checked out in the electronics store which would have a hard time locking focus on anything, but this could also have been due to the 18-135 lens), I guess the 7D will be a keeper for me.
HotspurJr said:
I strongly suspect you're being paranoid.
Click to expand...
I admit to being paranoid and over-picky when it comes to purchasing pricey electronics. :-)
HotspurJr said:
Take a similar image with both of your cameras at ISO 3200 and see which looks better viewed at the same size. UNless you usually shoot the inside of your lens cap, and look at 100% crops of it, then this test isn't very meaningful.
Click to expand...
Well the effect was also quite apparent on some high ISO images I took on a larger christmas market in my region.

However, I meanwhile made some attempts to process these images. DPP, which I used to (IMO....) good effect with my 450D, seems to have trouble with getting rid of the noise while keeping a reasonable amount of image detail. In particular its RAW sharpening feature emphasizes the white noise dots a lot. I then tried Noiseware Community edition, and I really liked the results, as it produced a good balance between retaining detail and eliminating the most disturbing noise.

Since I might have to invest in some RAW image processing software anyway, I would like to have your input on which one you use, in particular for handling high ISO images. Since I don't need the full scale of features of Photoshop (I use The Gimp for the occasional retouching job, which was more than adequate for my non-professional needs, where 8-bit output color depth were enough), I would also prefer a noise reduction software that does not come exclusively as a PS plugin, although AFAIK Adobe's Lightroom can accept many PS plugins, correct?

Is Lightroom still the weapon of choice for any more serious (non-retouching) postprocessing? Or are there better (and perhaps cheaper) alternatives available?

Regards

G
 
bronxbombers said:
and perhaps C1v5 and use ACR 5.6/LR 2.6 instead
Click to expand...
You must be kidding, right? You don't see the red and white pixel "spray", not even on the second image? Give it some time to load, the image hoster might not be the fastest depending on your location.
 
they look perfect black to me as well.

Perhaps your calibration profile file of your monitor is broken ?
 
It makes me laugh the way people who can't see something are so content to declare that it's not there.

Well, FWIW I can see your 'snow', but it's normal. Just to reassure you, here's a crop from a shot I've just taken, with identical settings and processing.

(Hey, this is photography at its best, don't you think? ;-))

 
I know it is not April 1st. So what is the joke? All I see are the black frames everyone post here. It is just as black as the frame around this page.
--
Eugene

The only time a smaller sensor with the same pixel count is superior to a larger sensor (aka higher pixel density) is when you are focal-length limited.

Lee Jay

 
Eugene Powers said:
I know it is not April 1st. So what is the joke? All I see are the black frames everyone post here. It is just as black as the frame around this page.
Click to expand...
If you can't see the noise, either your vision needs correction (seriously, no offence intended), or your monitor isn't sharp or lacks dynamic range in the shadows. Try using the 'zoom in' facility to view the images at a larger size.
 
I see 100% black pictures, and I am an expert at seeing the smallest defect in a picture. I think your monitor is failing you !!!!
 
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