sRGB and wide gamut monitor questions

OK, so I understand that on a wide gamut monitor, colors/pictures displayed in non-color managed apps, such as IE, will appear overly saturated. I've got a couple of questions around this. They have probably been asked/answered before but I am not able to find or decipher the info I am looking for, so I'm asking again. I figured this would be better than PC Talk for this question.

First off, assuming a properly calibrated monitor, the above is still true, correct? What if I put the monitor in sRGB mode, then calibrate it. Then, all colors should be displayed the same, regardless of whether or not the app is color managed? The downside to this is that you lose the extra colors available from other color spaces when doing photo editing, etc...?

Secondly, If I want to process images for the web, i.e. use the sRGB color space, how can I ensure the resulting images are not overly saturated when Photoshop shows them to me using the expanded color gamut of the monitor? Do I switch the monitor to sRGB mode and re-calibrate each time, or make and load a specific .icc profile? If I want to both print the image, as well as display it online, do I need to make two different versions?

I'm a bit confused here. Any assistance will be appreciated.

Thanks,
Larry
--
-Larry
http://www.pbase.com/lardog

LarryT said:

OK, so I understand that on a wide gamut monitor, colors/pictures displayed in non-color managed apps, such as IE, will appear overly saturated. I've got a couple of questions around this. They have probably been asked/answered before but I am not able to find or decipher the info I am looking for, so I'm asking again. I figured this would be better than PC Talk for this question.

First off, assuming a properly calibrated monitor, the above is still true, correct? What if I put the monitor in sRGB mode, then calibrate it. Then, all colors should be displayed the same, regardless of whether or not the app is color managed? The downside to this is that you lose the extra colors available from other color spaces when doing photo editing, etc...?

Secondly, If I want to process images for the web, i.e. use the sRGB color space, how can I ensure the resulting images are not overly saturated when Photoshop shows them to me using the expanded color gamut of the monitor? Do I switch the monitor to sRGB mode and re-calibrate each time, or make and load a specific .icc profile? If I want to both print the image, as well as display it online, do I need to make two different versions?

I'm a bit confused here. Any assistance will be appreciated.

Thanks,
Larry
--
-Larry
http://www.pbase.com/lardog

Click to expand...

In rgb mode in photoshop, you can convert the picture to Srgb so it will look fine in IE!

No biggy.

By the way, windows IS standard Srgb, so if you calibrate your monitor it would be standard for Srgb. Everything else then your editor, like photoshop, will be standard Srgb, only photoshop and some others are colour aware.

Now in windows 7 and a plug-in for windows xp let's you use different profiles for different applications/monitors.

LarryT said:

OK, so I understand that on a wide gamut monitor, colors/pictures displayed in non-color managed apps, such as IE, will appear overly saturated.

Click to expand...

LarryT said:

First off, assuming a properly calibrated monitor, the above is still true, correct?

Click to expand...

Yes, true. Even if you convert the image to srgb and embed the profile, when you view the image in a non-color managed program, on a wide gamut monitor, it will be overly saturated.

LarryT said:

What if I put the monitor in sRGB mode, then calibrate it.

Click to expand...

I don't know. I'm not familiar with being able to do this.

LarryT said:

Secondly, If I want to process images for the web, i.e. use the sRGB color space, how can I ensure the resulting images are not overly saturated when Photoshop shows them to me using the expanded color gamut of the monitor?

Click to expand...

Calibrate your monitor. Use whatever color working space you prefer to use (Pro Photo, aRGB or sRGB). I would not restrict myself to working in srgb, when your monitor is capable of viewing a wider gamut. Once you restrict yourself down to srgb, you can't just switch back to a wider gamut and get those colors back. They are gone for good.

When you get ready to post to the web, if you are not using srgb as your working space, then convert a copy of your image to srgb and post that to the web. Most colors fall within the srgb color space, so you may not notice any difference. But, any colors that extend beyond the srgb range will get adjusted to fit within the srgb space.

What you are seeing in a color managed program is correct. IOW, if it is not overly saturated in PS, then it will not be overly saturated on the web (unless, a person has a wide gamut monitor and they are not using a web browser that supports color management. But, you have no control over what others use).

As for yourself, you may want to use Firefox as your web browser (instead of IE) and activate the color management. That way you will see your images correctly.

LarryT said:

If I want to both print the image, as well as display it online, do I need to make two different versions?

Click to expand...

No. Remember, what you see in your color managed program is what is correct (as long as the monitor is calibrated). Print it. Convert a copy to srgb and post it.

--
Chandra

Thanks C Wills. That helps.
--
-Larry
http://www.pbase.com/lardog

I didn't have the option to switch to sRGB or adjust the color on a Dell I had so I did end up with way oversaturated reds on all non color aware programs...skin look sunburnt. I sent it back.
example:



Since they now have more options I would use sRGB for everything but professional work.

LarryT said:

OK, so I understand that on a wide gamut monitor, colors/pictures displayed in non-color managed apps, such as IE, will appear overly saturated. I've got a couple of questions around this. They have probably been asked/answered before but I am not able to find or decipher the info I am looking for, so I'm asking again. I figured this would be better than PC Talk for this question.

First off, assuming a properly calibrated monitor, the above is still true, correct? What if I put the monitor in sRGB mode, then calibrate it. Then, all colors should be displayed the same, regardless of whether or not the app is color managed? The downside to this is that you lose the extra colors available from other color spaces when doing photo editing, etc...?

Secondly, If I want to process images for the web, i.e. use the sRGB color space, how can I ensure the resulting images are not overly saturated when Photoshop shows them to me using the expanded color gamut of the monitor? Do I switch the monitor to sRGB mode and re-calibrate each time, or make and load a specific .icc profile? If I want to both print the image, as well as display it online, do I need to make two different versions?

I'm a bit confused here. Any assistance will be appreciated.

Thanks,
Larry
--
-Larry
http://www.pbase.com/lardog

Click to expand...

cspringer said:

I didn't have the option to switch to sRGB or adjust the color on a Dell I had so I did end up with way oversaturated reds on all non color aware programs...skin look sunburnt. I sent it back.
example:



Since they now have more options I would use sRGB for everything but professional work.

LarryT said:

OK, so I understand that on a wide gamut monitor, colors/pictures displayed in non-color managed apps, such as IE, will appear overly saturated. I've got a couple of questions around this. They have probably been asked/answered before but I am not able to find or decipher the info I am looking for, so I'm asking again. I figured this would be better than PC Talk for this question.

First off, assuming a properly calibrated monitor, the above is still true, correct? What if I put the monitor in sRGB mode, then calibrate it. Then, all colors should be displayed the same, regardless of whether or not the app is color managed? The downside to this is that you lose the extra colors available from other color spaces when doing photo editing, etc...?

Secondly, If I want to process images for the web, i.e. use the sRGB color space, how can I ensure the resulting images are not overly saturated when Photoshop shows them to me using the expanded color gamut of the monitor? Do I switch the monitor to sRGB mode and re-calibrate each time, or make and load a specific .icc profile? If I want to both print the image, as well as display it online, do I need to make two different versions?

I'm a bit confused here. Any assistance will be appreciated.

Thanks,
Larry
--
-Larry
http://www.pbase.com/lardog

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

It is actually quite simple; in photoshop working in rgb, just convert the picture to Srgb and should be fine for web!

LarryT said:

What if I put the monitor in sRGB mode, then calibrate it.

Click to expand...

There are two things here that people often confuse. One is calibrating and the other is profiling. Calibration takes care of your white/black back and your gamma response curve, or your greys if you so want. Profiling is measuring the actual color characteristics. For calibration you use the controls on your monitor and the LUT in your graphics card, so you have the full control over it. Once it is in a calibrated state the color response is measured. Colors mainly depend on the type of display you use (backlight and filters), you have no control over it. The result is a profile that describes the 'native' colorspace of your display. For most of the mainstream displays the color response is close to what is defined in the sRGB standard, for wide gamut displays this can be anything. (mostly give in % AdobeRGB or NTSC).

Calibration applies to everything that is shown on your display as those settings are permanently done in hardware. The profile is used only by color managed programs, such as photoshop, to find the correct RGB value to send to your monitor for a certain target color. Everything shown in such an app will be shown correctly, especially if the native color space of your display completely encompasses the color space of your image.

Ok, that being said coming back to your question. 'sRGB mode' in some displays only refers to a predefined calibration (white point/gamma) and does not change the color bahavior. Some displays support sRGB emulation mode, for which they also desaturate the colors. I think such a mode is only useful to be compatible to non color managed application bahavior. There is very little value in creating a profile for such a mode .

LarryT said:

Then, all colors should be displayed the same, regardless of whether or not the app is color managed?

Click to expand...

It will most likely not look the same. Even in emulated mode the display is not exactly sRGB, but an emulated space that comes close.

LarryT said:

Secondly, If I want to process images for the web, i.e. use the sRGB color space, how can I ensure the resulting images are not overly saturated when Photoshop shows them to me using the expanded color gamut of the monitor?

Click to expand...

Photoshop will compensate for your displays, colors will be shown correctly.

LarryT said:

Do I switch the monitor to sRGB mode and re-calibrate each time, or make and load a specific .icc profile? If I want to both print the image, as well as display it online, do I need to make two different versions?

Click to expand...

As I said above, just calibrate and profile the native characteristics of your display. All color managed applications will be fine. Convert your images to sRGB before putting them on the web. You should use firefox and enable colormangement and your web pictures will be should correctly.

Switching your display into sRGB emulation when you really have to use non-colormanged applications can work, but you have to be careful if this mode also changes your display's calibration. That will bring your graphics card's LUT and your display out of sync and your grey's might get messed up. For a good display the LUT corrections are small and you might be able to ignore it, but it might be severe for others.

Printing is a complete different topic, you have at least three profiles that are important, that of your image, of your printer and that of your monitor. Latter is only used for proofing purposes. I'm not going to elaborate on this in this post, as you should first get the role of image and monitor color space straight.

LarryT said:

I'm a bit confused here. Any assistance will be appreciated.

Click to expand...

The whole topic is a bit confusing. Not because it is so complicated but it cannot be explained in two sentences. There are many things to consider and most info you find on the internet simplify things in order to keep it short, especially forum postings (incl. mine!).

Toermalijn said:

cspringer said:

I didn't have the option to switch to sRGB or adjust the color on a Dell I had so I did end up with way oversaturated reds on all non color aware programs...skin look sunburnt. I sent it back.
example:



Since they now have more options I would use sRGB for everything but professional work.

LarryT said:

OK, so I understand that on a wide gamut monitor, colors/pictures displayed in non-color managed apps, such as IE, will appear overly saturated. I've got a couple of questions around this. They have probably been asked/answered before but I am not able to find or decipher the info I am looking for, so I'm asking again. I figured this would be better than PC Talk for this question.

First off, assuming a properly calibrated monitor, the above is still true, correct? What if I put the monitor in sRGB mode, then calibrate it. Then, all colors should be displayed the same, regardless of whether or not the app is color managed? The downside to this is that you lose the extra colors available from other color spaces when doing photo editing, etc...?

Secondly, If I want to process images for the web, i.e. use the sRGB color space, how can I ensure the resulting images are not overly saturated when Photoshop shows them to me using the expanded color gamut of the monitor? Do I switch the monitor to sRGB mode and re-calibrate each time, or make and load a specific .icc profile? If I want to both print the image, as well as display it online, do I need to make two different versions?

I'm a bit confused here. Any assistance will be appreciated.

Thanks,
Larry
--
-Larry
http://www.pbase.com/lardog

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

It is actually quite simple; in photoshop working in rgb, just convert the picture to Srgb and should be fine for web!

Click to expand...

I wish it worked that way but wide gamut only works on color aware images regardless if they are aRGB or sRGB. That is why everyone complains about the "nuclear" colors (as shown in the sRGB image I posted). Of course, if your monitor has an sRGB mode (which mine didn't) then it should be fine.

Thanks.

Your post re-iterates a lot of what I read at http://www.artstorm.net/journal/2009/07/color-management-wide-gamut-dell-2408/ , which I found after my OP. It's usefull info. I appreciate it.

Working in IE, I can handle. I could use FIrefox but it isn't that important, plus, I'm kind of oblgated to use IE. The biggest impact I have noticed so far is in displaying my images as desktop wallpaper. I am running Windows 7 and Windows Photo Viewer appears to be a color managed app and displays the images "correctly". However, it appears that the desktop uses the same (or similar) display rendering as IE and is not color managed, so the colors are off. This means that if I want the desktop image to look normal, I have to putz around with it in Photoshop, trying various levels of de-saturation until I find something that makes it desplay nicely. Assuming I can find an adjustment that works consistently accross a variety of images, I can easily make an action to prepare images for desktop display. If come up with such a formula, I'll let you all know.
--
-Larry
http://www.pbase.com/lardog

Sorry, but people have tried for years. It will be very frustrating.

Why not just set the monitor to sRGB since you have that option? Switch to wide gamut for photo editing if you feel it makes that big of a difference.

Assuming I can find an adjustment that works consistently accross a variety of images, I can easily make an action to prepare images for desktop display. If come up with such a formula, I'll let you all know.

LarryT said:

--
-Larry
http://www.pbase.com/lardog

Click to expand...

LarryT said:

The biggest impact I have noticed so far is in displaying my images as desktop wallpaper. I am running Windows 7 and Windows Photo Viewer appears to be a color managed app and displays the images "correctly". However, it appears that the desktop uses the same (or similar) display rendering as IE and is not color managed, so the colors are off. This means that if I want the desktop image to look normal, I have to putz around with it in Photoshop, trying various levels of de-saturation until I find something that makes it desplay nicely. Assuming I can find an adjustment that works consistently accross a variety of images, I can easily make an action to prepare images for desktop display. If come up with such a formula, I'll let you all know.

Click to expand...

For the desktop image: Simply convert the image into the monitor space. (Edit-> Convert to profile; Choose your monitor profile as target profile. Make sure you use a copy of your original file and use this one as wallpaper only.

Frank

cspringer said:

Toermalijn said:

cspringer said:

I didn't have the option to switch to sRGB or adjust the color on a Dell I had so I did end up with way oversaturated reds on all non color aware programs...skin look sunburnt. I sent it back.
example:



Since they now have more options I would use sRGB for everything but professional work.

LarryT said:

OK, so I understand that on a wide gamut monitor, colors/pictures displayed in non-color managed apps, such as IE, will appear overly saturated. I've got a couple of questions around this. They have probably been asked/answered before but I am not able to find or decipher the info I am looking for, so I'm asking again. I figured this would be better than PC Talk for this question.

First off, assuming a properly calibrated monitor, the above is still true, correct? What if I put the monitor in sRGB mode, then calibrate it. Then, all colors should be displayed the same, regardless of whether or not the app is color managed? The downside to this is that you lose the extra colors available from other color spaces when doing photo editing, etc...?

Secondly, If I want to process images for the web, i.e. use the sRGB color space, how can I ensure the resulting images are not overly saturated when Photoshop shows them to me using the expanded color gamut of the monitor? Do I switch the monitor to sRGB mode and re-calibrate each time, or make and load a specific .icc profile? If I want to both print the image, as well as display it online, do I need to make two different versions?

I'm a bit confused here. Any assistance will be appreciated.

Thanks,
Larry
--
-Larry
http://www.pbase.com/lardog

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

It is actually quite simple; in photoshop working in rgb, just convert the picture to Srgb and should be fine for web!

Click to expand...

I wish it worked that way but wide gamut only works on color aware images regardless if they are aRGB or sRGB. That is why everyone complains about the "nuclear" colors (as shown in the sRGB image I posted). Of course, if your monitor has an sRGB mode (which mine didn't) then it should be fine.

Click to expand...

You can also do it in photoshop;

convert rgb to Srgb!

Chip is correct, an app that does not colour manage will display sRGB files incorrectly on a wide gamut monitor.

sRGB files won't display perfectly in non colour managed apps on other monitors either, its just the difference between the monitor space and sRGB is less so you don't notice it.
Use colour managed apps and there is no problem.

If there is something that you need to show correctly in a non colour managed application (like your desktop wallpaper) then there is a workaround but the answer is NOT to convert to sRGB.

There is nothing that would put me off a wide gamut monitor. I can prepare aRGB asukabooks that use a 6 ink process and the colors are great.

There are not many colours that are out of sRGB that show up but there are some and sometimes its something its important like red bridesmaid dresses.

Last (not so important)colour I saw that was out of sRGB was the wax of a candle illuminated by the flame. I'll get a brighter saturated colour in aRGB and I can see how that colour looks because I have the wide gamut monitor.

Andrew

Toermalijn,

Yes, an image should be converted to srgb before posting to the web (as you keep saying). However, that image (srgb) when viewed on a wide-gamut monitor , in a non-color managed browser/program will appear overly saturated. That is the problem that we are talking about. A simple conversion to srgb does not fix this.

--
Chandra

This looked like a great thread to ask some experts a question. I'm confounded and can't figure out the solution.

I've been successfully running a Dell with Dell monitor, fully adjusted and calibrated with a Gretag Eye-One match for several years, PS/CS3, etc. I am color-aware, I utilize soft-proofing, etc. Short version - I pretty much know color management, just to set the baseline.

The issue is: My Dell died, and I replaced it with a new XPS, and at the same time replaced the monitor with a new HP widescreen. The XPS is Vista OS. I cannot for the life of me figure out why my colors are a disaster.

When I downloaded the 64 bit patch for the Gretag to run on the XPS/Vista machine, installed, then ran the utility and did what I always do (adjust contrast, brightness, RGB settings for monitor WHITE balance to my desired temp, 6300K), then run calibration, it's all wrong! Colors are completely washed out. I noticed that in order to get the white value, I had to set the R setting on the monitor down to about 50 (out of 255) on the slider.

My suspicion is that there's some hidden, secondary profiling going on, but I don't know where to find it. In the "good old days," I would have deleted the Adobe Gamma utility ... it doesn't exist, however, in Vista.

I would appreciate any guidance on where to look - I started here from a Search on profiling, and this looked like a good place to start.

Thanks for any help,
Wynn

Wynn Aker said:

When I downloaded the 64 bit patch for the Gretag to run on the XPS/Vista machine, installed, then ran the utility and did what I always do (adjust contrast, brightness, RGB settings for monitor WHITE balance to my desired temp, 6300K), then run calibration, it's all wrong! Colors are completely washed out. I noticed that in order to get the white value, I had to set the R setting on the monitor down to about 50 (out of 255) on the slider.

My suspicion is that there's some hidden, secondary profiling going on, but I don't know where to find it. In the "good old days," I would have deleted the Adobe Gamma utility ... it doesn't exist, however, in Vista.

Click to expand...

With this soft from MS you can check what is being loaded into your system, look at the Logon TAB http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb963902.aspx

Try ColorEyes Display Pro with your Eye-One, it does miracles

C Wills said:

Toermalijn,

Yes, an image should be converted to srgb before posting to the web (as you keep saying). However, that image (srgb) when viewed on a wide-gamut monitor , in a non-color managed browser/program will appear overly saturated. That is the problem that we are talking about. A simple conversion to srgb does not fix this.

--
Chandra

Click to expand...

Allright, i get it. True, but the solution is mandatory if working in rgb modus and want to publish on the web, always convert to Srgb.

Can't you switch from and to profiles in xp and windows 7? I believe you can, windows xp has that colourmanagement plug-in wich handles multiple profiles just fine and windows 7 has it standard.

This way you can switch really easy and fast from and to Srgb to RGB modus!

Toermalijn said:

Allright, i get it. True, but the solution is mandatory if working in rgb modus and want to publish on the web, always convert to Srgb.

Click to expand...

Yes, convert to sRGB for the web from whatever working space you use so that most people seem something close to what you intend.
Although
1) aRGB images look better to wide gamut users using non colour managed apps!
2) sRGB is still going to show a small difference on standard gamut monitors.

Toermalijn said:

Can't you switch from and to profiles in xp and windows 7? I believe you can, windows xp has that colourmanagement plug-in wich handles multiple profiles just fine and windows 7 has it standard.

Click to expand...

The xp app was for multiple profiles, so you could have a different one for each monitor. These output profiles still won't be used if the application is not colour managed.

Toermalijn said:

This way you can switch really easy and fast from and to Srgb to RGB modus!

Click to expand...

No, you don't want to choose sRGB or aRGB as your monitor profile. You want to choose an output profile created for you by a device and software like i1 display + i1 match. Windows photo gallery and other colour managed applications provided by the OS should then display correctly.

If more of the OS supplied applications are colour managed obviously the wider gamut user is happier but it is nothing to do with "switching to an sRGB profile".

Andrew

andrewD2 said:

andrewD2 said:

Allright, i get it. True, but the solution is mandatory if working in rgb modus and want to publish on the web, always convert to Srgb.

Click to expand...

Yes, convert to sRGB for the web from whatever working space you use so that most people seem something close to what you intend.
Although
1) aRGB images look better to wide gamut users using non colour managed apps!
2) sRGB is still going to show a small difference on standard gamut monitors.

andrewD2 said:

Can't you switch from and to profiles in xp and windows 7? I believe you can, windows xp has that colourmanagement plug-in wich handles multiple profiles just fine and windows 7 has it standard.

Click to expand...

The xp app was for multiple profiles, so you could have a different one for each monitor. These output profiles still won't be used if the application is not colour managed.

andrewD2 said:

This way you can switch really easy and fast from and to Srgb to RGB modus!

Click to expand...

No, you don't want to choose sRGB or aRGB as your monitor profile. You want to choose an output profile created for you by a device and software like i1 display + i1 match. Windows photo gallery and other colour managed applications provided by the OS should then display correctly.

If more of the OS supplied applications are colour managed obviously the wider gamut user is happier but it is nothing to do with "switching to an sRGB profile".

Andrew

Click to expand...

True, but using Srgb and the Srgb profile will get you much closer to what it will look like for other people on the web.

Don't care to much, the majority doesn't have a calibrated monitor anywy and try to get the best output you can. It will never look the way it does on your monitor and then on another, simple as that.

sRGB not Srgb.

Yes, you have no control over other peoples monitors. Thats not the point of the OPs post though, that relates to images on his monitor.

And adjusting images so that look right on calibrated screens (wide gamut or otherwise) does matter.
1) People that care most about photography will care about their screen
2) Some devices are pretty well calibrated out of the box.
3) If you are sending to a lab to print
Andrew