a550's Face Detection feature. Good idea?

Glenn · Sep 9, 2009

I can tell you that the face detection onmy wifes P&S works really really well. infactit works a lottle too well and sometimes ID's patters as faces and has to be turned off. it'll even detect babies. dogs. our shelving unit that we had had 3 knots (pine) in it and it would detect a face there sometimes. on the other hand my daughter has an older face detect unit that doesn't work so well.

Smile detection is a little iffy. some people don't smile broadly enough. I have visions of going to someones house that uses smile detection and all their pictures looks like the joker from batman with over exagerated smiles.. spooky
--
http://www.fotosource.com/downloads/flyer/eye_cancer_en_CA.pdf

beakydave · Sep 9, 2009

Amirk said:
That's a silly argument used by Barry earlier. What happens when you press the DOF button and while you are looking at DOF in OVF, you realize you have already missed the shot and don't have a second chance? Pressing the shutter button is just as quick, and in that case, at least you have some image, unlike playing with DOF button where you have nothing if you already missed the shot.

Keep 'em coming and I'll keep laughing. Did it never occur to you that one can press the shutter and release the DOF preview at the same time? I've never missed a shot yet while checking DOF, but I can think of more than a few that I wouldn't have had a second chance with.

Amirk said:
Stop trying to find excuses for gimmicks like DOF.

I'm not - if you honestly think that you can press the shutter, wait for LCD playback, review, recompose and fire again quicker than a single check of DOF and press of the shutter button I'm not going to argue with you. Just accept that there are those who find the alternative much quicker and less risky. If you won't accept that, nothing that I or anyone else says is going to change your view. All that your rants demonstrate is that you really know precious little about photography.

Amirk · Sep 9, 2009

beakydave

beakydave said:
Keep 'em coming and I'll keep laughing. Did it never occur to you that one can
press the shutter and release the DOF preview at the same time? I've never
missed a shot yet while checking DOF, but I can think of more than a few that
wouldn't have had a second chance with.

I see, like a fool, every single time that you use camera, you always do two things simultaneously: press shutter and release the DOF preview. Pardon me while I laugh. Does it ever occur to you, that most sane people, after a few tries with the camera and lens, will have a pretty good idea what DOF would look like just knowing the F-stop, focal length, and general distance from the subject? Apparently, some of them, like you, for the rest of their lives, need to push DOF button. No thank you. I won't want to pay for any extra cost/space/weight added due to DOF button.

Frank43 · Sep 9, 2009

I sometimes try to catch a small face with an obstacle in the field of view, say a pillar. When the pillar is closer, the autofocus has difficulties, and switches back and force between the face and the pillar. The autofocus area is larger than it appears on the screen.

I wonder if face detection would resolve this situation properly.

gpr2020 · Sep 9, 2009

Barry Fitzgerald said:
Amirk said:

Member said:

There are others, though, that prefer the technique of getting it right before
firing, and sometimes it is essential.

Click to expand...

These are not film cameras where you need to get everything right before firing. It doesn't take any longer to see the result on LCD then pressing DOF button and looking at it in OVF. DOF might have some use in film cameras but they are useless redundancy on digital.

Click to expand...

This keeps coming up

DOF preview is not useless on digital.

And what happens if that magic moment has gone?? Re-take the shot won't cut it.

If it's so useless why do other models and makers include it? Find me a higher level camera without a DOF preview..

Barry do you expect Sony t give you DOF on the a200 with a FW ?

ph0t0man · Sep 9, 2009

Are you sure this example of a ruined picture has anything to do with face detection and not just another AF algorithm? Didn't you notice a floating box around the "bright object" indicating that the camera was focusing on that part of the photo? Many cameras (including very expensive DSLRs) will focus on a bright, high contrast target in the foreground rather than a large dark blob in the mid/background. It's what they are designed to do, after all. From your description, it sounds like the camera is doing what it's supposed to do. I'm not trying to pick at you or call your photography skills out. It just sounds like an unfair description of face detection to me. No offense meant.

The face detection in my Sony W150 is pretty picky about faces - it only works on a face that is frontal, it won't pick out a person/child facing to the side. I haven't seen it pick out any inanimate objects to date, but I'm sure it would pick out a statue's face or similar if it is lifelike. It easily traces multiple faces around the frame as long as they are frontal. It will hold onto a side profile for a short period of time in some instances, but I don't think it's meant to work with profiles.

If it works well, it's a great feature for particular uses. If it doesn't work well at all, it'll still sell some cameras. I don't see much negative, but then again, I'm a pretty positive person.

--
-Matt

beakydave · Sep 9, 2009

Amirk said:
Amirk said:

Keep 'em coming and I'll keep laughing. Did it never occur to you that one can
press the shutter and release the DOF preview at the same time? I've never
missed a shot yet while checking DOF, but I can think of more than a few that
wouldn't have had a second chance with.

Click to expand...

I see, like a fool, every single time that you use camera, you always do two things simultaneously: press shutter and release the DOF preview. Pardon me while I laugh. Does it ever occur to you, that most sane people, after a few tries with the camera and lens, will have a pretty good idea what DOF would look like just knowing the F-stop, focal length, and general distance from the subject? Apparently, some of them, like you, for the rest of their lives, need to push DOF button. No thank you. I won't want to pay for any extra cost/space/weight added due to DOF button.

There you go again - letting your imagination run wild. Just where did I say that I use DOF preview every time? I could just as easily have laughed at you for suggesting that you have to take 2 shots every time. But you are right in one respect - I do have a pretty good idea of DOF with a particular focal length, aperture etc, so don't need to use DOF that often. (I oonly use built-in flash occasionally - does that make it a gimmick?) But having a pretty good idea is not the same as knowing exactly how the DOF will look, which on occasion is critical. It is on those occasions that DOF needs to be checked - by whichever method you choose. You have your method, others find another more convenient. Really, what is so hard to understand about that?

But I do wonder if you've ever seen a camera, let alone a DOF preview button. Added cost? Perhaps, but I reckon insignificant. But extra weight/space? Now that is hilarious. Yep, you continue to amuse - keep 'em coming.

Amirk · Sep 10, 2009

beakydave

beakydave said:
But having a pretty good idea is not the same as knowing exactly how the DOF
will look, which on occasion is critical.

On those rare occasion where DOF is that "critical", you can just take a picture and examine it on LCD, which not only would show DOF but white balance and histogram too, in that very very "critical" situation. Thanks for making a fool out of yourself by trying to defend the indefensible.

You are not succeeding, however,. Try harder.

beakydave · Sep 10, 2009

Amirk said:
Amirk said:

But having a pretty good idea is not the same as knowing exactly how the DOF
will look, which on occasion is critical.

Click to expand...

On those rare occasion where DOF is that "critical", you can just take a picture and examine it on LCD, which not only would show DOF but white balance and histogram too, in that very very "critical" situation. Thanks for making a fool out of yourself by trying to defend the indefensible.

You are not succeeding, however,. Try harder.

:0 :0 :0

I'm laughing at your inability to grasp that I am only pointing out that there are different ways of doing things - you have your method, I and others have another. I don't need to defend anything.

If anything, it is you that is trying to defend your position by continuing to throw other issues into the ring to try and side-step the argument. In the "very very critical situation" that you refer to I would ensure beforehand, not after the shot, that exposure and WB were, just like DOF, correct (and even then RAW would allow me to make minor corrections afterwards - less easy to adjust DOF (but possible) in PP). If you decide to do all the checking afterwards, without a second chance for the shot, that's up to you - just not my preferred way of doing things.

But how about a theoretical challenge? Line up 10 rows of 10 crayons at different spacings and each row at a different (unknown) distance leading away from the camera. Take a shot of each row with only the middle 3 crayons in perfect focus. I'll use DOF preview and you'll use the "check and re-take" method. I'd be willing to bet a large sum of money that I'd get my 10 shots before you. But it's only theory, so I expect you to come back, like the idiot you are, and claim that your method would be quicker.

gillbod · Sep 10, 2009

Phixel is posting this as a wind up. Please don't humour him.

Zamac · Sep 10, 2009

ph0t0man said:
Are you sure this example of a ruined picture has anything to do with face detection and not just another AF algorithm? Didn't you notice a floating box around the "bright object" indicating that the camera was focusing on that part of the photo? Many cameras (including very expensive DSLRs) will focus on a bright, high contrast target in the foreground rather than a large dark blob in the mid/background. It's what they are designed to do, after all. From your description, it sounds like the camera is doing what it's supposed to do. I'm not trying to pick at you or call your photography skills out. It just sounds like an unfair description of face detection to me. No offense meant.

The face detection in my Sony W150 is pretty picky about faces - it only works on a face that is frontal, it won't pick out a person/child facing to the side. I haven't seen it pick out any inanimate objects to date, but I'm sure it would pick out a statue's face or similar if it is lifelike. It easily traces multiple faces around the frame as long as they are frontal. It will hold onto a side profile for a short period of time in some instances, but I don't think it's meant to work with profiles.

If it works well, it's a great feature for particular uses. If it doesn't work well at all, it'll still sell some cameras. I don't see much negative, but then again, I'm a pretty positive person.

--
-Matt

You could be right. I assumed that it was face detection because it was on (I tend to just ignore the little rectangles when its on) and because the reed was on the extreme edge of the image. This would not normally be an area where the CD would play a role. I assume that, when face detection is on, the CD is concentrated in, if not exclusive to the marked areas. It is an older camera, and I assume face detection has become more sophisticated, but it definitely does pick up light areas that are not faces - which is why I usually turn it off.

beakydave · Sep 10, 2009

I'm hoping for some more gems from Amirk

tko · Sep 10, 2009

For technical reasons involving the viewscreen in modern dSLRs, the DOF button does not allow you to preview DOF! If you are using it to do so then you are not seeing what you will be getting.

I don't understand your statement: sometimes it's necessary to get it right the first time. You should not think of it as a penalty to take one shot to check the histogram, DOF, everything, and then taking another if something is wrong. It's typically much faster doing it this way than fiddling with spot metering, DOF buttons, which are little better than guessing.

Most pros are going w/the take the shot then adjust as required approach. If you have time to use the DOF button you have time to take a 2nd shot.

Amirk · Sep 10, 2009

beakydave said:
But how about a theoretical challenge? Line up 10 rows of 10 crayons at > different spacings and each row at a different (unknown) distance leading away

from the camera. Take a shot of each row with only the middle 3 crayons in > perfect focus. I'll use DOF preview and you'll use the "check and re-take"
method.

You are a buffoon, beakyd. Someone with quicker hand, using liveview that he is used to, would be just as quick. And guess what? If he gets the shot right first time, he won't have to take it again -- making it even quicker.

You have failed miserably to defend an old outdated "feature" from film cameras.

mike_2008 · Sep 10, 2009

Sounds perfectly sensible to me, but have you got a link to explain these 'technical reasons'?

I remain convinced that DOF preview has little sense on the OVF but a lot of sense in main sensor live view.

tko said:
For technical reasons involving the viewscreen in modern dSLRs, the DOF button does not allow you to preview DOF! If you are using it to do so then you are not seeing what you will be getting.

I don't understand your statement: sometimes it's necessary to get it right the first time. You should not think of it as a penalty to take one shot to check the histogram, DOF, everything, and then taking another if something is wrong. It's typically much faster doing it this way than fiddling with spot metering, DOF buttons, which are little better than guessing.

Most pros are going w/the take the shot then adjust as required approach. If you have time to use the DOF button you have time to take a 2nd shot.

--
http://mike2008.smugmug.com

beakydave · Sep 10, 2009

tko said:
For technical reasons involving the viewscreen in modern dSLRs, the DOF button does not allow you to preview DOF! If you are using it to do so then you are not seeing what you will be getting.

Interesting thought - perhaps it's my eyes, then, but I find that the output is exactly as I see in DOF preview.

tko said:
I don't understand your statement: sometimes it's necessary to get it right the first time. You should not think of it as a penalty to take one shot to check the histogram, DOF, everything, and then taking another if something is wrong. It's typically much faster doing it this way than fiddling with spot metering, DOF buttons, which are little better than guessing.

Most pros are going w/the take the shot then adjust as required approach. If you have time to use the DOF button you have time to take a 2nd shot.

Not in my experience - checking DOF and pressing the shutter is far quicker than pressing the shutter, waiting for playback, re-composing and pressing the shutter again. But then I'm not a pro. And it's not always a question of time - sometines you only have the opportunity for one shot.

beakydave · Sep 10, 2009

Amirk said:
Amirk said:

But how about a theoretical challenge? Line up 10 rows of 10 crayons at > different spacings and each row at a different (unknown) distance leading away

from the camera. Take a shot of each row with only the middle 3 crayons in > perfect focus. I'll use DOF preview and you'll use the "check and re-take"
method.

Click to expand...

You are a buffoon, beakyd. Someone with quicker hand, using liveview that he is used to, would be just as quick. And guess what? If he gets the shot right first time, he won't have to take it again -- making it even quicker.

You have failed miserably to defend an old outdated "feature" from film cameras.

And there it is - another gem (which I was fully expecting) - introducing yet another variable. I had suggested a comparison of the 2 techniques, which has to assume that everything else is equal. So, if the LCD user is able to get it right first time then the presumption has to be that the button-pusher is equally capable - otherwise you're comparing photographers' skills, not the relative merits of the techniques. I did mention that the DOF had to be spot on, so I'd be very surprised if you were able to guess it so accurately 10 times out of 10. But even if you did, you'd still have to check the shot each time to make sure, and waiting for LCD playback takes much much longer than my trigger finger. And I see that you now mention liveview - we weren't discussing liveview, which is a different matter altogether. But then I should have expected that - tossing in yet another red herring in an attempt to win a rapidly failing argument.

You have failed miserably to make any sense whatsoever. If you remain of the opinion that taking a shot once, waiting for LCD playback, reviewing, recomposing and taking a second shot (and you may even need a third shot because your second will still be an educated guess) is quicker than a single shot, feel free. I live in the real world.

Keep 'em coming

Phixel · Sep 10, 2009

gillbod said:
Phixel is posting this as a wind up. Please don't humour him.

Strange post. What are you implying?
-Phil

Amirk · Sep 10, 2009

beakydave said:
I did mention that the DOF had to be spot on, so I'd be very surprised if you
were able to guess it so accurately 10 times out of 10. But even if you did,
you'd still have to check the shot each time to make sure, and waiting for LCD
playback takes much much longer than my trigger finger.

DOF preview doesn't give you precise view either. You would get miss and hit there too, and might need to take another shot anyway. You would have to look at LCD anyway to confirm you got it right, if DOF is that important. What if you got it wrong? How would you know without confirming it on LCD? You will lose the 10 picture challenge if there are misses in it. Only way to confirm that would be by checking the result on LCD 10-times. Moreover, you can't see enough detail as OVF would be dark especially at lower F-Stops. Your eyes need to get adjusted. You could still get it wrong. DOF button will be doubly worthless in already dim viewfinder.

Thanks for making a fool out yourself.

Try harder, beaky. You have failed. You have been spanked thoroughly.

beakydave · Sep 10, 2009

Amirk said:
Amirk said:

I did mention that the DOF had to be spot on, so I'd be very surprised if you
were able to guess it so accurately 10 times out of 10. But even if you did,
you'd still have to check the shot each time to make sure, and waiting for LCD
playback takes much much longer than my trigger finger.

Click to expand...

DOF preview doesn't give you precise view either. You would get miss and hit there too, and might need to take another shot anyway. You would have to look at LCD anyway to confirm you got it right, if DOF is that important. What if you got it wrong? How would you know without confirming it on LCD? You will lose the 10 picture challenge if there are misses in it. Only way to confirm that would be by checking the result on LCD 10-times. Moreover, you can't see enough detail as OVF would be dark especially at lower F-Stops. Your eyes need to get adjusted. You could still get it wrong. DOF button will be doubly worthless in already dim viewfinder.

Thanks for making a fool out yourself.

Try harder, beaky. You have failed. You have been spanked thoroughly.

Not yet I haven't.

DOF preview does in fact give me accurate DOF - I don't need to check it on LCD. Yes, the OVF gets darker, but just because you're unable to use the facility doesn't mean that real photographers cannot. I wonder - when was the last time you actually looked through a viewfinder? There's nothing dim about mine and I have no problem seeing the DOF. But if it will appease you at all (which I very much doubt) I have already made the point elsewhere that DOF preview does have its limitations - shooting at night, for instance. I'm prepared to be open-minded and accept that both methods have their merits. Your pig-ignorant refusal to accept that some people might actually find one method quicker and easier than yours clearly indicates who the fool is here.

Remind me again how taking one shot, waiting for LCD playback, reviewing, re-composing, taking a second (or more) shot is quicker than taking a single shot. Oh, and your subject has now disappeared as well.

a550's Face Detection feature. Good idea?

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