5DII and sharpening for large prints.

jtangen

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A workmate ordered two large prints from my website and they were delivered to our office today. They were a 16x20 shot with my 10mp Oly E3 and an 18x24 shot with my new 5DII. She was thrilled with them (which was good) but I noticed that the photo shot with my Oly was much crisper and had an overall better appeal sharpness-wise, (basically it was really good) whereas the 5DII shot was on the soft side. When I did my final sharpening on the full size print, I visually sharpened as much as I thought was safe and was typically close to what I got with my Oly shots (visually, on-screen), but it looks like the increased resolution of the 5DII will require more aggressive sharpening.

I read an article within the last year in a reputable mag that said to do your sharpening at 25% zoom. They said that if you get things visually sharp at 25% it will look horrible at 100% but that’s OK because prints are always visually softer than what you see on-screen. I don’t print at home so don’t have an easy way to test this out. I guess I’ll have to bump up the sharpening from the 5DII to where it is a little more than horrible at 100% and order a couple test prints.

Anyone have thoughts or experience with this? Have you gone from a 10-12mp camera to 21mp and had to change your sharpening tricks?
 
I don't see the point of the squares either.

Maybe it refers to the physical amount of camera pixels per inch2.

To answer the question; sharpness is a subjective matter, unless you compare two exact same scenes.

Ofcourse your 5DII is set to raw not jpeg. And the technical photo quality is good.

When processing the files on computer dpp (that comes with the camera) does a great job. Use this tool to apply a modest amount of sharpness to the photo.
Tweak whitebalance to make colours crisp.

Contrast will also help the subjective feel of sharpness, so either auto adjust it or go manually. Save the file to tiff. Quality at this point should be good for general use.

Next comes photoshop or so to apply fine tuning for print / media.
For kingsize prints apply an extra sharpening.
 
You do have to sharpen differently for different cameras, different lenses, different subject, different papers, and different printers - really!

Here are some ballpark guidelines that work well for me with a 5D II and which can produce very sharp prints at large sizes.

I do my sharpening using "smart filters" in Photoshop. (In virtually all cases - there are some situations in which some sharpening in ACR makes sense, but I'll leave that out of this description.) I add two smart layers for two different but complementary types of filtering.

1. Apply a SmartSharpen filter (in CS4) with the display at 100% magnification. Settings can very depending on "stuff," but a decent starting point is to set the top value ("amount") to 150 and the lower value ("radius") to 1.0. I would rarely increase either of these (with one exception mentioned below) but I might well lower them a bit. In particular the radius value may be lower if the photo was made with a particularly sharp lens - say a prime. It is not unusual for me to set radius as low as .8 or .7.

Exception: In an image with a lot of very fine detail I may start with SmartSharpen values that go back to an old Canon recommendation - amount: 300 and radius: .3.

2. Reduce magnification (25% or less) and apply a USM (unsharp mask) filter, also as a smart layer. Typically the three settings here are 12, 50, 1. The amount might be a bit less in some cases.

The first step increases the resolution of fine details and the second increases local contrast - you'll see the effects of the two methods when you try them.

These two processes are pretty much used by default on all image. I do not necessarily wait until all other layers, etc have been applied - keep in mind that I can return to Smartlayers later and change values if necessary.

Then I do a third "output sharpening" pass when I make a final conversion or do a print. Since your question relates to prints, I'll leave out the output sharpening I do for jpg screen images.

The idea of the final print output sharpening is to slightly over-sharpen the image - someone described the effect as "crunchy." Save your working file before you do this,a and then duplicate the file. Working on the copy, first flatten the image. Work at 100% and go for a bit of over-sharpening, noticeably beyond what you think you'll actually want. This step is intended to compensate for the tendency of the ink to spread when it hits that paper. The plan is that by over-sharpening on the screen you'll get "just right" sharpening after the ink hits the paper. (And, yes, you ultimately do have to try different settings with different types of paper...)

Typical starting points for me, again using a Smartsharpen layer might be in the amount: 200 and radius: .3 range. Amount can go as high as about 250 and as low as about 100. Radius is most often .3 but it can occasionally need to be as high as .4 or rarely as low as .2.

One more thing. I don't do any interpolation to upsize the image. I simple set the image size where I want it and let the resolution fall where it may. As long as it is at least 180 this works quite well, indeed. (I didn't believe it when I first heard of this technique either - but I tried it and my skepticism was replaced by relief...) It makes sense that you would want higher resolution for smaller images that are likely to be viewed very closely and that lower resolution would be fine for very large prints.

And, as the previous posted pointed out, sharpness is not all just about, uh, sharpness. For example, work with curves (often masked to constrain them to only portions of the image) can increase mid-tone contrast and produce the impression of a sharper image.

Good luck.

Dan

--
---
G Dan Mitchell - SF Bay Area, California, USA
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A 21mp image shown at 25% is different (in screen size) than a 10mp shown at 25%. to make it work you have to match the screen size of the two, if sharpening at 25% on a 10mp image is good on screen and print then sharpening a 20mp image at 12,5% with higher sharpening value would be good too. Try it out :)

--
'you don’t take a photograph, you make it' (Ansel Adams)
 
Thank you for the very detailed response. I'm still at CS3 so I guess this gives me enough reason to upgrade.

Normally I do not sharpen my Raw file before bringing it into PS. (When I first got the 5DII and used Canon's DPP, it skipped my notice that it defaulted to a +3 sharpen which when I found out, made me realize why I was not liking what the files were looking like) Once in PS I may do a USM of 20-50-0 to cut some haze and increase contrast and DR slightly. Then I do not do anymore sharpening to the PSD file. When I'm ready to save out my different flattened files for final large print, Alamy submission, web size upload etc. I will do sharpening according to final usage. On the full size flattened file for print I will usually do some combo of settings with SmartSharpen. I'll have to upgrade to try the Smart Object sharpening but it sounds interesting. Thanks again.
 
I think that sharpening at reduced display size makes sense for the USM stage I described in my post, but I do not think it makes sense for the SmartSharpen processes I described. When you view at 25% or other reduced sizes, the application has to interpolate the actual sharpened image since it must display it with fewer pixels - the result can give you some idea of what the final result will look like but it is not very accurate. Viewing at 100% - and learning what the effect at 100% will be when you print - actually gives you much more control.

My view is that...

1. Sharpening for fine detail resolution - e.g. SmartSharpen at 150/1.0 - is best done at 100%.

2. USM for local contrast enhancement (e.g. USM at 12, 50, 1) is best done at a size where you can see all or most of the image.

3. Output sharpening (e.g. 200, .3 for prints or variables on this) is best done at 100%.

One of the side-effects of the fact that the methods of working digitally are so new is that there is a lot of "advice" out there that turns out to be not as good as it originally seemed. One positive aspect of this is that you can easily try the alternatives yourself and see what works best. It is also true that there may be more than one way of getting to the same place. :-)

Dan
A 21mp image shown at 25% is different (in screen size) than a 10mp shown at 25%. to make it work you have to match the screen size of the two, if sharpening at 25% on a 10mp image is good on screen and print then sharpening a 20mp image at 12,5% with higher sharpening value would be good too. Try it out :)

--
'you don’t take a photograph, you make it' (Ansel Adams)
--
---
G Dan Mitchell - SF Bay Area, California, USA
Blog & Gallery: http://www.gdanmitchell.com/
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/gdanmitchell
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdanmitchell/
Twitter: http://twitter.com/gdanmitchell
IM: gdanmitchell

Gear List: Cup, spoon, chewing gum, old shoe laces, spare change, eyeballs, bag of nuts.
 
I'll try that but it seems (and I could be wrong) that regardless of pixel size, when something is displayed at standard intervals (100,50,25) the image looks normal whereas when you get to %'s like 66 and 33, the pixels visually look skewed somehow. At least this is the case for me regardless if I'm working on my 10mp or 21mp files.

I will try your idea though.
 
You're welcome jtangen :)
You don't have this issue while working with CS4 and openGL :)

--
'you don’t take a photograph, you make it' (Ansel Adams)
 
My participation was for pointing out that a 10mp image at 25% isn't the same screen-size of a 21mp at 25%, so the value for the unsharp should be different.
Not talking about "how sharpen an image", it would take half a book :°D
3. Output sharpening (e.g. 200, .3 for prints or variables on this) is best done at
100%.
Bruce Fraser was really wrong then ;D

You have to better name the sharpening work-flow:
a) raw pre-sharpening aka input-sharpening;
b) creative sharpening;
c) output sharpening;

--
'you don’t take a photograph, you make it' (Ansel Adams)
 
I will definitely have to try your method.

Having originally started with the Kodak DCS-Pro/C (13 MP, Canon lenses, no AA filter) and then moved to the 5D, my big 5D prints held the same amount of detail, but were never quite as tack-sharp as the Kodak prints, no matter which sharpeing method I did apply.

Now having the 5DII, the situation is similar -- more detail, but never as sharp as the old Kodak prints

In fact, I had concluded that the effect of the Canons' AA filter simply cannot be overvcome through sharpening. And so I usually resigned myself to sharpening in LR 2.3 which seemed to work about as well as PS3 and Nik Sharpener.

But perhaps there is hope after all?
In any case, thanks for the detailed recommendations.
--
Fritz

http://www.pbase.com/fwscharpf/galleries
 
Thanks again

Since I do no (yet) have CS4, I applied your values to USM in CS3. Compared to the best I could get in LR 2.4 the difference in the precision of fine detail is simply stunning.

It seems that I never dared to sharpen my 5D and 5D2 images as aggressively as you do (and as they seem to need).
This has been the most valuable advice I received in a long time.
--
Fritz

http://www.pbase.com/fwscharpf/galleries
 
My participation was for pointing out that a 10mp image at 25% isn't the same screen-size of a 21mp at 25%, so the value for the unsharp should be different.
Not talking about "how sharpen an image", it would take half a book :°D
3. Output sharpening (e.g. 200, .3 for prints or variables on this) is best done at
100%.
Bruce Fraser was really wrong then ;D
A number of my ideas come from Jeff Schewe, who somewhat inherited the mantle of Bruce Fraser.

Bruce Fraser's ideas were brilliant and very influential, but he did not write the last word on the process of sharpening, especially since the software we now work with is not the same as what he was using (and developing) at that time.

Dan

--
---
G Dan Mitchell - SF Bay Area, California, USA
Blog & Gallery: http://www.gdanmitchell.com/
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/gdanmitchell
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdanmitchell/
Twitter: http://twitter.com/gdanmitchell
IM: gdanmitchell

Gear List: Cup, spoon, chewing gum, old shoe laces, spare change, eyeballs, bag of nuts.
 
Assuming, perhaps pretentiously, that you are replying to my description... ;-)

... I'm very glad to hear that it worked so well for you. I can certainly get very high resolution prints from 5D2 photographs using this approach.

Good luck.

Dan

BTW - and replying to a different poster - I think that getting the AA filter removed is probably not a very productive thing to do. You can get very fine 20 x 30 prints from a 5D2 if you shoot with careful technique, great lenses, and use good post-processing skills. If you really need to go much beyond that the real answer is probably MF digital for a whole bunch of reasons.
Thanks again

Since I do no (yet) have CS4, I applied your values to USM in CS3. Compared to the best I could get in LR 2.4 the difference in the precision of fine detail is simply stunning.

It seems that I never dared to sharpen my 5D and 5D2 images as aggressively as you do (and as they seem to need).
This has been the most valuable advice I received in a long time.
--
Fritz

http://www.pbase.com/fwscharpf/galleries
--
---
G Dan Mitchell - SF Bay Area, California, USA
Blog & Gallery: http://www.gdanmitchell.com/
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/gdanmitchell
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdanmitchell/
Twitter: http://twitter.com/gdanmitchell
IM: gdanmitchell

Gear List: Cup, spoon, chewing gum, old shoe laces, spare change, eyeballs, bag of nuts.
 

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