Ideas for E4

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David J Heinrich

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1. Slightly larger sensor size?

Elsewhere, Rriley said that the patent specs for 4/3rds said that the image field as a max diameter of 25mm, but we currently use 21.6mm; thus, the the sensor area could be increased from 225 sqmm to 300sqmm. However, it isn't clear that the lenses are acceptably sharp in those outer areas. There is no point in increasing the sensor size if those last bits of the image circle aren't sharp. Then you just have a larger-sized image with soft corners. And you've lost some reach (although you can crop to get it back).

2. Circular sensor? or a square sensor large to circumscribe the entire diameter of image circle. (whichever is more cost-effective).

We are no longer using film; why are we sticking to film concepts of square aspect ratios? Sure, we aren't going to usually use a circular image as our final print. But so what? Lenses give a circular image. Why not work with that?

Think about the advantages this offers. (1) You can choose your own aspect ratio. (2) No more need to tilt the camera. (3) For some shots, i.e., with fish-eye lenses, you may want a circular aspect ratio.

3. Tilt-shift sensor?

This would be a killer feature. It would effectively turn all 4/3rds lenses into tilt/shift lenses on the E4. Not much tilt is needed at all on a small format like 4/3rds to achieve dramatic results in terms of shifting the plane of focus. Simply have a few controls to tilt he sensor about it's mid-points this way or that, and provide an option to lock it in place at any location. Make sure to have a way to return it to perfectly parallel.

4. HDR built in?

Again, why not? Why do we have to take multiple shots for HDR (multiple mirror flips). It's absurd. The sensor should be able to dynamically report back to the camera body, "ok, here's the image so-far, with 1/1000th of an exposure...oh, here's an update now at 1/500ths, oh here's 1/250ths."

The way it would work is the mirror goes up one time, and you program a long exposure (say 1/60 of a second total), with captures from 1/1000th of a second to 1/60 second, cummulatively, so you have a picture at:

1/1000th
1/500th
1/250th
1/125th
1/60th

The sensor is only exposed for 1/60th of a second total; it just dynamically reports those cumulative results back to the body. The result is a really simple set of HDR shots, with less fiddling around, and less chance for camera shake. You could even program this as an option around the + - exposure compensation. I.e., the 5EV shutter bracketing. So when you say you want a 5EV bracket around your target exposure, rather than taking 5 separate shots, it can take 1 cummulative shot, which is parsed out into 5 photos.

5. A new way to think about exposure


Better: Or maybe, even better yet, rather than a cummulative shot, with the sensor exposed and periodically reporting back to the body, do a series of non-cummulative shots with the sensor reporting back to the body, and have a digital image-alignment processor in the camera merge them. This way, each individual exposure -- while under-exposed -- doesn't have as much possibility of shake. But it's still taken with 1 total 1/60th click, just reporting back to the camera at many intervals; if there was any shake not corrected by the in-body IS, that is aligned by camera firmware afterwards.

So, for a 1/60 second exposure, instead of having 1 image sent back to the camera, you'd have 16 1/1000th second images sent back, which could be aligned in-camera:

0/1000 (1/1000th exposure)
1/1000 (1/1000th exposure)
2/1000 (1/1000th exposure)
3/1000 (1/1000th exposure)
4/1000 (1/1000th exposure)
5/1000 (1/1000th exposure)
6/1000 (1/1000th exposure)
7/1000 (1/1000th exposure)
8/1000 (1/1000th exposure)
9/1000 (1/1000th exposure)
10/1000 (1/1000th exposure)
11/1000 (1/1000th exposure)
12/1000 (1/1000th exposure)
13/1000 (1/1000th exposure)
14/1000 (1/1000th exposure)
15/1000 (1/1000th exposure)
16/1000 (1/1000th exposure)

Even if Olympus can't make the dedicated hardware to do a proper alignment, it can still do a simple cummulation of all of them and give you 16 separate 1/1000th second images, which you could align later on on your computer.

I wouldn't think it would be too difficult to get the sensor to report back at 1/1000th second intervals.
 
Elsewhere, Rriley said that the patent specs for 4/3rds said that the image field as a max diameter of 25mm, but we currently use 21.6mm; thus, the the sensor area could be increased from 225 sqmm to 300sqmm.
Do any of the lenses have baffles to eliminate stray light that will preclude this?

If they don't, we would have a 15x20 sensor instead of a 13x17.3.

It would have an about 0.4 stop better SNR and the crop factor compared to 24x36 would be 1.73 compared to 2.0 for regular 4/3rds.

The ZD 50/2 would now be the equivalent of an 86/3.5 instead of a 100/4 and the Sigma 30/1.4 would be equivalent of a 52/2.4 instead of a 60/2.8. Not all that bad.
 
With the height of the sensor increased from 13 mm to 15 mm, we have also increased the minimum height of the mirror from 18.4 mm to 21.2 mm.

With a side-swinging mirror like in the E-300, a 20 mm wide sensor will require a mirror 28.3 mm wide as opposed to the 24.5 mm required by the 17.3 mm wide sensor actually used.
 
The ZD 50/2 would now be the equivalent of an 86/3.5 instead of a 100/4 and the Sigma 30/1.4 would be equivalent of a 52/2.4 instead of a 60/2.8. Not all that bad.
What in the world are you talking about? Please stop this BS, sick of people mis-informing others.

The 50mm f2 is an f2 lens in terms of exposure, is that so hard to comprehend?

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http://www.pueblostudio.com
 
What in the world are you talking about?
In the part you chose to comment, I was talking about equivalence. A very simple, easily understood, and utterly uncontroversial concept.
Please stop this BS, sick of people mis-informing others.
It's not "BS". And it isn't misinformation. However, claiming that it is either, is both.
The 50mm f2 is an f2 lens in terms of exposure, is that so hard to comprehend?
No, why do you ask? I wasn't talking about exposure. Exposure, in and of itself, is not all that interesting.
 
What in the world are you talking about?
In the part you chose to comment, I was talking about equivalence. A very simple, easily understood, and utterly uncontroversial concept.
Please stop this BS, sick of people mis-informing others.
It's not "BS". And it isn't misinformation. However, claiming that it is either, is both.
The 50mm f2 is an f2 lens in terms of exposure, is that so hard to comprehend?
No, why do you ask? I wasn't talking about exposure. Exposure, in and of itself, is not all that interesting.
You want to talk about equivalence, then Zuiko Digital 50mm f2.0 macro is equivalent to a 100mm f2.0 macro on a 35mm format. Plain and simple.
Stating that the 50mm f2 is equiv. to 100mm f4 IS mis-informing.

--



http://www.pueblostudio.com
 
You want to talk about equivalence, then Zuiko Digital 50mm f2.0 macro is equivalent to a 100mm f2.0 macro on a 35mm format. Plain and simple.
Good. What pictures can you take using a 50 mm lens mounted on your E-3 and set to ƒ/2 that cannot be taken by mounting a 100 mm lens on a D3 and setting it to ƒ/4? Let me answer the question for you. Here it comes: the answer is – drum roll – none .
Stating that the 50mm f2 is equiv. to 100mm f4 IS mis-informing.
Nope, but stating that it is equivalent to a 100 mm ƒ/2 is.
 
multi-exposure frames, why not...

take an exposure, then offset the sensor by half a pixel (utilizing existing IS hardware) take another exposure. Maybe offset diagonally and take a third.

Poof! three times the resolution w/o changing the sensor or making the photo sites smaller.

I'd be happy tho, w just minor advancements, but the E-40 in an E-500 size/form, and the E-4 trimmed down to an E-30 size (exclusive of the prism hump, which obviously can't be shrunk)
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Art P
Select images may be seen here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sigvarius/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cecropia_grove/
 
the E-4 trimmed down to an E-30 size (exclusive of the prism hump, which obviously can't be shrunk)
The E-3 isn't that much bigger than the E-30, is it? I mean 5.6"x4.6"x2.9" versus 5.6"x4.3"x2.9" and if we keep the E-3 prism hump in the E-4, there goes the 0.3". The E-3 is about 5.5 oz heavier than the E-30 but if we keep the E-3 prism we are basically down to whatever weight advantage plastic gives us compared to magnesium alloy.
 
I'd be happy tho, w just minor advancements, but the E-40 in an E-500 size/form, and the E-4 trimmed down to an E-30 size (exclusive of the prism hump, which obviously can't be shrunk)
I would like to see the E-4 trimmed down to the E-30/E-1's weight which is about 660g, even better if it is less than that.
 
can i end this,

the DZ 50mm f/2 has the effective f.o.v. of a 100mm on 35mm film/sensor. irregardless of the focal length/aperture ratio. f/4, f/8, f/16 it is still the same focal length.

d.o.f. from the 50mm f/2 is (roughly) equivalent to a 100mm at f/4 on 35mm film/sensor (and for that matter should be the same as a 50mm f/2 on 35mm).

but as far as im concerned i use olympus, so the 50mm is a medium telephoto lens.

as for the OP topic, the sensor size increasing to use the complete image circle, sounds ok but i dislike that idea. purely as if you increase the sensor size, i would need to get a longer lens to compensate for the loss in sensor area incurred.

The stacking exposures, well stripping the sensor information while its exposing could cause a problem, it takes time to read and if values are updated as the sensor is read (as it would do when exposing the image) the frame you capture wouldnt be a true 1/1000s exposure.

It may be easier to implement a way to lock the mirror up and then program the camera to take a number of shots in quick succession with only the shutter being used. eliminating the shake from the mirror movement and being fast enough to capture more-or-less the same image each time.

--
if you can imagine the picture, then do all you can to make it
 
You want to talk about equivalence, then Zuiko Digital 50mm f2.0 macro is equivalent to a 100mm f2.0 macro on a 35mm format. Plain and simple.
Good. What pictures can you take using a 50 mm lens mounted on your E-3 and set to ƒ/2 that cannot be taken by mounting a 100 mm lens on a D3 and setting it to ƒ/4? Let me answer the question for you. Here it comes: the answer is – drum roll – none .
Sounds more like dumb roll.
Stating that the 50mm f2 is equiv. to 100mm f4 IS mis-informing.
Nope, but stating that it is equivalent to a 100 mm ƒ/2 is.
Whatever dude, you wanna live with that rubbish is fine by me, but please, PLEASE! Don't plant your seed of ignorance around this forum.

--



http://www.pueblostudio.com
 
Sounds more like dumb roll.
Let's see your answer. What pictures can you take using a 50 mm lens mounted on your E-3 and set to ƒ/2 that cannot be taken by mounting a 100 mm lens on a D3 and setting it to ƒ/4?

Come on, explain how it works. Explain what a 50 mm at ƒ/2 can do that can't be matched by a 100 mm at ƒ/4 on FF. Spell it out, man.
 
I like the OP's suggestions and would like to add one more: bring back the multi-spot metering of the OM-4Ti.
 
please, please, please.

If I never see another "HDR" image it will be too soon.

Nick
 
Sounds more like dumb roll.
Let's see your answer. What pictures can you take using a 50 mm lens mounted on your E-3 and set to ƒ/2 that cannot be taken by mounting a 100 mm lens on a D3 and setting it to ƒ/4?

Come on, explain how it works. Explain what a 50 mm at ƒ/2 can do that can't be matched by a 100 mm at ƒ/4 on FF. Spell it out, man.
While he is dead wrong on saying that 50/2 on 4/3rds is equivalent to 100/2 on FF (it's equivalent to 100/4), you can get shots on a 50/2 43rds that you can't get on a 100/4 FF. Beyond f/11 for 4/3rds, the FF 100/4 cannot match the DOF. In FF, f/22 is equal to f/11 on 4/3rds. So if we stop down to higher than f/11, FF can't get as much DOF. Granted, that is where diffraction starts to become a problem; but at least we have that choice.

Not sure, but the 50/2 may also have a closer minimum focus range.
 
I [...] would like to add one more: bring back the multi-spot metering of the OM-4Ti.
Check!

And add something like Canon's DEP mode where you in turn aim an AF point at the nearest and farthest objects you want in focus and the camera picks a suitable aperture.
 
While he is dead wrong on saying that 50/2 on 4/3rds is equivalent to 100/2 on FF (it's equivalent to 100/4), you can get shots on a 50/2 43rds that you can't get on a 100/4 FF.
Hi David. Note that I wrote " set to ƒ/2", " setting it to ƒ/4", " at ƒ/2", and " at ƒ/4".
Not sure, but the 50/2 may also have a closer minimum focus range.
Also note that I carefully avoided to talk about specific lens implementations. I did that to simplify the comparison. After all, this has nothing to do with what specific lenses can or cannot do. This is far more fundamental.

You get it, even I get it, lots of other folks get it. Paco 316 evidently does not.
 
get OT or get gone
thanks
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plɹoʍ ǝɥʇ ɟo doʇ uo ǝɹɐ ǝʍ 'ɐılɐɹʇsnɐ uı
 
Paco 316,
You want to talk about equivalence, then Zuiko Digital 50mm f2.0 macro is equivalent to a 100mm f2.0 macro on a 35mm format. Plain and simple.
Stating that the 50mm f2 is equiv. to 100mm f4 IS mis-informing.
No, you are wrong. 50/2 on 4/3rds is equivalent in terms of DOF, exposure (NOT holding ISO constant), and image quality, to 100/4 on FF. In terms of noise & image quality

4/3rds 50/2 @ ISO 100 = 100/4 @ ISO 400

This is an approximation, which assumes equal sensor technology and lens quality. However, for details on this, see my post below, but the brief summary of it is this as follows. Both lenses have the same aperture (50/2 = 100/4 = 25mm) and the same effective field of view. Hence, they are both collecting the same amount of light at the same f-stop and shutter-time. The 100/4 is, however, spreading that light over an area 4 times as large. Because the sensor is 4 times as large, ISO 400 on FF is equivalent to ISO 100 on 4/3rds in terms of noise and image quality.

Thus, the statement I said above is true. You are wrong. Stop spreading misinformation that 50/2 on 4/3rds = 100/2 on FF. That is completely sloppy and misleading. It is rue hat it does equal that for exposure assuming the same ISO. However, with that same ISO, the full-frame camera will produce a higher quality image.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1022&message=32629330
 
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