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I'm thrilled that things seems to have worked out for you ****. I think we have all learned a great deal from your misfortune. Unfortunately, everyone is not as honest in their business dealings as they should be. Here's to a better tomorrow!!! All the best.
 
You worked hard to fight this thief and I am very glad that you won! Have you had any contact with the guy since? Do you plan on sending him an e-mail?

PS - I'm one American tax-payer that is more than happy to spend a few to help a Canadian brother ;-)
**** Lau said:
Thank you everyone for your words.

This is the day 2 update.

After I call PayPal yesterday, I know I am alone in the dark. The
only hope is UPS.

So I make several phone calls to UPS (maybe around 10 or so, the
good thing about calling company as big as UPS is, you will not get
the same person to answer the phone, so the operator will not feel
annoying). They ask me to keep calling to check the status. At one
point, I was told the camera is still in the UPS parcel centre in
US. Later when I check the online tracking from UPS, it shown the
camera arrive Germany already. It seems the tracking system is not
real-time , it just show the last log. And my guess is, the UPS
tracking system is fully automatic (think about the volume), so
every UPS Canada make notes on the system for recall, no one will
able to check it unless it reach a point that need human process
like the delivery. And maybe it can’t do a automatic recall thing.

So I check the UPS web site and check for their Europe office info.
I find some fax number, tel number and email. And my another wave
of action start. I type a mail in English and send it to all
possible UPS centers (UPS Europe HQ, Germany and Romania) and ask
for help. I even use German, even I don’t know a single word of it.
I use online translator from Altavista. Then I make some phone
calls to the UPS Germany, the German phone number system is a bit
rare, they put some extra 0 in front of the area code. I have to
try it couple times to get the connection. And all I hear is a
German lady speaking in German. I can only understand the words,
United Parcel Service. I try to press 0 for operator, but no luck.
So it is a dead end. Then I try UPS Romania, not to mention I
absolutely know nothing about Romania, I even go to CIA’s web site
to check what language they use. When someone packing up the phone,
the first thing I said was, DO you know English? Thank God he
knows. So we talk about what is happening and I request for a
recall. And he told me he got the fax. At that point I see the
light.

After calling UPS, I check dpreview and see if there is any other
suggestion, ephotoa ask me to call US embassy for help. Since I am
a Canadian, I think I better off calling Canadian embassy of
Romania. After all, I don’t want to waste the money of America tax
payer. I send an email to the general inquiry of the embassy at 1am
this morning. And I got a reply from the embassy at 4am. The lady
told me the situation has been take care of, UPS Romania will send
it back to me when they have it in hands.

This is the update of day 2.

If you really want to know the route of my camera, this is the
link, click DETAIL to see more

http://wwwapps.ups.com/etracking/tracking.cgi?tracknums_displayed=5&error_carried=yes&TypeOfInquiryNumber=T&HTMLVersion=4.0&sort_by=status&InquiryNumber1=w7501959290&InquiryNumber2=&InquiryNumber3=&InquiryNumber4=&InquiryNumber5=&track=Track

****
Click to expand...
 
All this makes me wonder how safe it is to use Paypal at all if it can be several months before they decide to "charge-back" a payment. Not everybody is a verified member by any means. Anyone know of a more secure service?

Barry
**** Lau said:
I recently sell my F5 in ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ ...
...torial=0&ed=1029139836&indexURL=0&rd=1 and it is a buyer fraud.

What was happening is this.

The buyer (the person call himself James Scott) contact me few days
ago, and ask me if I would ship to Europe, I reply yes. Then he/she
told me that he lost/stolen his camera in Romania and really need a
replacement camera rush from US or Canada, cause camera cost a lot
in Romania. And I reply I can express the F5 to him by UPS. So, he
place a bid and I end the auction. Then he pay me in 2 PayPal
payment. He said, maybe his wife use up the money in the account,
so he has to ask his father to pay for the rest. It is interesting
his father has a different last name. I thought that maybe his
father in law. So don’t pay too much attention to it.

After I verify he paid full to PayPal. I rush to UPS in that
morning and send the camera to Romania, that was yesterday. And
this morning, when I open my inbox. I found 2 mails from Paypal
that claim I received 2 fraud payments and they are pending the
money. So I call up PayPal, and they said it is most likely a fraud
and there is nothing they can do. The PayPal insurance will not
save me. I will lost the money and my F5. Cause, 1. I sent to an
unverified address. 2. I sent to non-US address.

Now, I have a few problems with PayPal. If PayPal can’t verify the
payment before they show the OK sign, what are the use of them?
Isn’t it a bit too easy to send out a fraud payment from PayPal?
Aren’t they secure?

The only hope is UPS. See if UPS can recall the parcel before
deliver to Romania. It should arrive Romania in Friday or next
money. Now it is still in LOUISVILLE EXPORT, KY, US. at 3:22pm.
Hope they can stop it before too late.

The final thought, it is not always safe with PayPal. I know I
should not send to a unverified address, but all I try to do is to
help someone who is in trouble. And never ship to anyone not in US,
not even Canada.

Any suggestion, etc?

--
**** Lau of Calgary
[email protected]
Click to expand...
 
How about escrow.com? I've done a dpreview search and those who have used it seem satisfied....Bill
Barry Foster said:
All this makes me wonder how safe it is to use Paypal at all if it
can be several months before they decide to "charge-back" a
payment. Not everybody is a verified member by any means. Anyone
know of a more secure service?
Click to expand...
 
Congratulations on getting your goods back.

So my question is, is PayPal charging you for anything?

If yes, what the heck are they charging you for?
 
Last summer I exchanged a few emails with an eBay seller from Canada -- I bought a camera from her -- and she told me about a similar situation where she had been tricked into sending a Nikon to Romania and was having problems with payment. I teach college and had a wonderful former student from Romania now living in the U.S., so I called her for advice on how to get some support from the authorities there.

She said that unfortunately that is the state of affairs in Romania now. Corruption is rampant and swindlers are everywhere. I passed that on to the seller with a few suggestions from the student which she knew were not very promising. I don't know whether the seller managed to recover her camera or not. It suggests the possibility that PayPal is being abused repeatedly.
**** Lau said:
Thank you everyone for your words.

This is the day 2 update.
Click to expand...
 
****.

I'm so happy your hard work pays off, and thank you for taking the time to detail your journey. Your story (with a happy ending) reads like a spy thriller. Good job on your effort to track it down, and good writing.

Regards,
Huan
 
****,

I"m glad your story is only a dream and not a nightmare.

Stick with the S2. To buy the d100 is like loosing your f5 all over again.

I didnt notice that ur Canadian but you picked up my idea!
 
Glad to hear you're getting your camera back. Sucks there are so many scammers online. Looks like you're out the $90 you paid to ship the camera but that's a lot better than losing your F5 entirely!

--
JT

Nikon CP-880
Olympus C-2100UZ
 
For this reason I have never started a paypal account. As far as I can tell, Paypal offers zero protection to either the buyer or the seller and it's like putting cash in an envelope and sending it through an anonymous middle man where paypal is only interested in protecting themselves no matter what inconvenience or hardships occur.

First unlike modern banks, Paypal is not insured, so any money in your account could disappear if they ever run into problems.

Second I've heard a number of horror stories from sellers (one a very respectable company who does over $10,000 a month through paypal I believe and who I would trust unconditionally as the most honest company I've ever dealt with.) The legit sellers have had their accounts and their already collected money suspended because of a fraudlent payment made to their account (though they were given no specific information and no time frame for the investigation or restoration of the account, and further could not even close the account when they requested to do so) so their money is just tied up for an undetermined period, money in no way related to the single fradulent payment if one was in fact made to them. And without a timeframe or the ability to stop payments from being made to these accounts for reccuring services, the "seller" was left in a situation where money flowed into paypal but with no way to get it out until paypal in their own good time decided to resolve and investigate the situation.

And third, unlike a credit card Paypal offers the buyer zero protection against fraud (for example if the item was not as represented or was damaged, etc) or in your case the seller.

So even though it is easy to use and a low cost alternative for transferring money, paypal is certainly High Risk.
**** Lau said:
I recently sell my F5 in ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ ...
...torial=0&ed=1029139836&indexURL=0&rd=1 and it is a buyer fraud.

What was happening is this.

The buyer (the person call himself James Scott) contact me few days
ago, and ask me if I would ship to Europe, I reply yes. Then he/she
told me that he lost/stolen his camera in Romania and really need a
replacement camera rush from US or Canada, cause camera cost a lot
in Romania. And I reply I can express the F5 to him by UPS. So, he
place a bid and I end the auction. Then he pay me in 2 PayPal
payment. He said, maybe his wife use up the money in the account,
so he has to ask his father to pay for the rest. It is interesting
his father has a different last name. I thought that maybe his
father in law. So don’t pay too much attention to it.

After I verify he paid full to PayPal. I rush to UPS in that
morning and send the camera to Romania, that was yesterday. And
this morning, when I open my inbox. I found 2 mails from Paypal
that claim I received 2 fraud payments and they are pending the
money. So I call up PayPal, and they said it is most likely a fraud
and there is nothing they can do. The PayPal insurance will not
save me. I will lost the money and my F5. Cause, 1. I sent to an
unverified address. 2. I sent to non-US address.

Now, I have a few problems with PayPal. If PayPal can’t verify the
payment before they show the OK sign, what are the use of them?
Isn’t it a bit too easy to send out a fraud payment from PayPal?
Aren’t they secure?

The only hope is UPS. See if UPS can recall the parcel before
deliver to Romania. It should arrive Romania in Friday or next
money. Now it is still in LOUISVILLE EXPORT, KY, US. at 3:22pm.
Hope they can stop it before too late.

The final thought, it is not always safe with PayPal. I know I
should not send to a unverified address, but all I try to do is to
help someone who is in trouble. And never ship to anyone not in US,
not even Canada.

Any suggestion, etc?

--
**** Lau of Calgary
[email protected]
Click to expand...
 
Way to go ****.....
hope the guy goes to jail.
**** Lau said:
Thank you everyone for your words.

This is the day 2 update.

After I call PayPal yesterday, I know I am alone in the dark. The
only hope is UPS.

So I make several phone calls to UPS (maybe around 10 or so, the
good thing about calling company as big as UPS is, you will not get
the same person to answer the phone, so the operator will not feel
annoying). They ask me to keep calling to check the status. At one
point, I was told the camera is still in the UPS parcel centre in
US. Later when I check the online tracking from UPS, it shown the
camera arrive Germany already. It seems the tracking system is not
real-time , it just show the last log. And my guess is, the UPS
tracking system is fully automatic (think about the volume), so
every UPS Canada make notes on the system for recall, no one will
able to check it unless it reach a point that need human process
like the delivery. And maybe it can’t do a automatic recall thing.

So I check the UPS web site and check for their Europe office info.
I find some fax number, tel number and email. And my another wave
of action start. I type a mail in English and send it to all
possible UPS centers (UPS Europe HQ, Germany and Romania) and ask
for help. I even use German, even I don’t know a single word of it.
I use online translator from Altavista. Then I make some phone
calls to the UPS Germany, the German phone number system is a bit
rare, they put some extra 0 in front of the area code. I have to
try it couple times to get the connection. And all I hear is a
German lady speaking in German. I can only understand the words,
United Parcel Service. I try to press 0 for operator, but no luck.
So it is a dead end. Then I try UPS Romania, not to mention I
absolutely know nothing about Romania, I even go to CIA’s web site
to check what language they use. When someone packing up the phone,
the first thing I said was, DO you know English? Thank God he
knows. So we talk about what is happening and I request for a
recall. And he told me he got the fax. At that point I see the
light.

After calling UPS, I check dpreview and see if there is any other
suggestion, ephotoa ask me to call US embassy for help. Since I am
a Canadian, I think I better off calling Canadian embassy of
Romania. After all, I don’t want to waste the money of America tax
payer. I send an email to the general inquiry of the embassy at 1am
this morning. And I got a reply from the embassy at 4am. The lady
told me the situation has been take care of, UPS Romania will send
it back to me when they have it in hands.

This is the update of day 2.

If you really want to know the route of my camera, this is the
link, click DETAIL to see more

http://wwwapps.ups.com/etracking/tracking.cgi?tracknums_displayed=5&error_carried=yes&TypeOfInquiryNumber=T&HTMLVersion=4.0&sort_by=status&InquiryNumber1=w7501959290&InquiryNumber2=&InquiryNumber3=&InquiryNumber4=&InquiryNumber5=&track=Track

****
Click to expand...
 
First of all, let me say I'm glad there seems to be a happy ending to this!

However, neither PayPal nor eBay offer any guarantee worth the paper it's not written on. I won a printer on an eBay auction, paid via PayPal, had it sent to me with no packing. Needless to say it was smashed up pretty badly. Neither PayPal nor eBay would do a thing -- in fact, eBay chastised me because I put a link to a webpage with pictures of the smashed printer in the box and even removed the negative feeback! Unbelievable.

Basically, it's all just luck the way I see it. There was a long thread here about how some guy was, in my opinion, screwed out of his warranty for his IBM microdrive. I'm not saying not to use PayPal or eBay -- I mean, what other choice is there (where the heck is capitalism when you need it!) -- and, for the most part, they are safe, but only because most people are not crooks. Nonetheless, it's too bad their guarantees are for naught. When you're dealing with transactions as simple as most do with eBay and PayPal, there should be no fine print. PayPal should not say you have money when you don't -- that should be plain and simple.

But it's like anything else. As Einstein once remarked, "Common sense is the set of prejudices acquired when young," or, as the judge in the Tom Hanks film, Bonfire of the Vanities, said, "Decency is what your grandmother taught you." PayPal and eBay were never young and never had decent grandmothers! But then again, that's either more common, or just seems so since there are a lot more people in the world today than there were in grandma's time! : )

--
Visit my rock store at http://www.saimport.com !
 
I was not lucky like you. I got cheated close to $2,000 over paypal and you know what else hurts; Paypal put my account on pernament suspend, even though it's not my fault! I think they think I was doing money laundring.

I am not going to go in to details except this one important one:

The person who played out this scheme was clever enough to create 5 fully VERIFIED accounts. But when I received payments, when I tried to transfer them to my bank, it said that these were fradulent accounts with stolen credit cards. And even though they offer some kind of protection, it didn't apply in my case.

My case was also dealt with another country. My word of advice is to stay away from other countries and stay away from paypal when it comes to big ammounts. Oh and never send your paymens via Western Union.

I learned my lesson very expensive.
 
****,

I'm gald to hear you're getting your camera back! Make sure you give us an update once you actually get it in your hands.

John
**** Lau said:
Thank you everyone for your words.

This is the day 2 update.

After I call PayPal yesterday, I know I am alone in the dark. The
only hope is UPS.

So I make several phone calls to UPS (maybe around 10 or so, the
good thing about calling company as big as UPS is, you will not get
the same person to answer the phone, so the operator will not feel
annoying). They ask me to keep calling to check the status. At one
point, I was told the camera is still in the UPS parcel centre in
US. Later when I check the online tracking from UPS, it shown the
camera arrive Germany already. It seems the tracking system is not
real-time , it just show the last log. And my guess is, the UPS
tracking system is fully automatic (think about the volume), so
every UPS Canada make notes on the system for recall, no one will
able to check it unless it reach a point that need human process
like the delivery. And maybe it can’t do a automatic recall thing.

So I check the UPS web site and check for their Europe office info.
I find some fax number, tel number and email. And my another wave
of action start. I type a mail in English and send it to all
possible UPS centers (UPS Europe HQ, Germany and Romania) and ask
for help. I even use German, even I don’t know a single word of it.
I use online translator from Altavista. Then I make some phone
calls to the UPS Germany, the German phone number system is a bit
rare, they put some extra 0 in front of the area code. I have to
try it couple times to get the connection. And all I hear is a
German lady speaking in German. I can only understand the words,
United Parcel Service. I try to press 0 for operator, but no luck.
So it is a dead end. Then I try UPS Romania, not to mention I
absolutely know nothing about Romania, I even go to CIA’s web site
to check what language they use. When someone packing up the phone,
the first thing I said was, DO you know English? Thank God he
knows. So we talk about what is happening and I request for a
recall. And he told me he got the fax. At that point I see the
light.

After calling UPS, I check dpreview and see if there is any other
suggestion, ephotoa ask me to call US embassy for help. Since I am
a Canadian, I think I better off calling Canadian embassy of
Romania. After all, I don’t want to waste the money of America tax
payer. I send an email to the general inquiry of the embassy at 1am
this morning. And I got a reply from the embassy at 4am. The lady
told me the situation has been take care of, UPS Romania will send
it back to me when they have it in hands.

This is the update of day 2.

If you really want to know the route of my camera, this is the
link, click DETAIL to see more

http://wwwapps.ups.com/etracking/tracking.cgi?tracknums_displayed=5&error_carried=yes&TypeOfInquiryNumber=T&HTMLVersion=4.0&sort_by=status&InquiryNumber1=w7501959290&InquiryNumber2=&InquiryNumber3=&InquiryNumber4=&InquiryNumber5=&track=Track

****
Click to expand...
 
at this point, no.
they just take the money back. But it is bad enough.

If they tell me it is a fraud in the first few hours, it is ok. But they give me a green light to go. Then tell me I am not allow to drive.
Pixelmanipulator said:
Congratulations on getting your goods back.

So my question is, is PayPal charging you for anything?

If yes, what the heck are they charging you for?
Click to expand...
--
**** Lau of Calgary
[email protected]
 
****, did you get your camera back from UPS??

It still shows in Romania!!

Let us know

Yamil
**** Lau said:
Thank you everyone for your words.

This is the day 2 update.

After I call PayPal yesterday, I know I am alone in the dark. The
only hope is UPS.

So I make several phone calls to UPS (maybe around 10 or so, the
good thing about calling company as big as UPS is, you will not get
the same person to answer the phone, so the operator will not feel
annoying). They ask me to keep calling to check the status. At one
point, I was told the camera is still in the UPS parcel centre in
US. Later when I check the online tracking from UPS, it shown the
camera arrive Germany already. It seems the tracking system is not
real-time , it just show the last log. And my guess is, the UPS
tracking system is fully automatic (think about the volume), so
every UPS Canada make notes on the system for recall, no one will
able to check it unless it reach a point that need human process
like the delivery. And maybe it can’t do a automatic recall thing.

So I check the UPS web site and check for their Europe office info.
I find some fax number, tel number and email. And my another wave
of action start. I type a mail in English and send it to all
possible UPS centers (UPS Europe HQ, Germany and Romania) and ask
for help. I even use German, even I don’t know a single word of it.
I use online translator from Altavista. Then I make some phone
calls to the UPS Germany, the German phone number system is a bit
rare, they put some extra 0 in front of the area code. I have to
try it couple times to get the connection. And all I hear is a
German lady speaking in German. I can only understand the words,
United Parcel Service. I try to press 0 for operator, but no luck.
So it is a dead end. Then I try UPS Romania, not to mention I
absolutely know nothing about Romania, I even go to CIA’s web site
to check what language they use. When someone packing up the phone,
the first thing I said was, DO you know English? Thank God he
knows. So we talk about what is happening and I request for a
recall. And he told me he got the fax. At that point I see the
light.

After calling UPS, I check dpreview and see if there is any other
suggestion, ephotoa ask me to call US embassy for help. Since I am
a Canadian, I think I better off calling Canadian embassy of
Romania. After all, I don’t want to waste the money of America tax
payer. I send an email to the general inquiry of the embassy at 1am
this morning. And I got a reply from the embassy at 4am. The lady
told me the situation has been take care of, UPS Romania will send
it back to me when they have it in hands.

This is the update of day 2.

If you really want to know the route of my camera, this is the
link, click DETAIL to see more

http://wwwapps.ups.com/etracking/tracking.cgi?tracknums_displayed=5&error_carried=yes&TypeOfInquiryNumber=T&HTMLVersion=4.0&sort_by=status&InquiryNumber1=w7501959290&InquiryNumber2=&InquiryNumber3=&InquiryNumber4=&InquiryNumber5=&track=Track

****
Click to expand...
 
Dear all,

I just got my F5 back from UPS today.

After the massive email, phone call and fax attack to UPS, it finally pay off. The UPS Romania is really helpful, even there was some communication problems.

When I check the UPS tracking system and find out the camera had been stop. UPS Romania send me a email to notify me the new tracking number. It turnout to be invalid. Then I ask them to send me the right one again. They did, again it is still wrong. So I call Romania and ask them again. They gave me another one, believe it or not, it is still wrong. So, I call UPS Canada’s Cantonese (my mother tongue) hotline then finally I got the right one which is 1Z3A0 47766 40945 975 You can check the route here http://wwwapps.ups.com/etracking/tracking.cgi?tracknums_displayed=5&TypeOfInquiryNumber=T&HTMLVersion=4.0&InquiryNumber1=1Z3A04776640945975&InquiryNumber2=&InquiryNumber3=&InquiryNumber4=&InquiryNumber5=&track=Track

I had to admit the tracking number is a bit long, it is 18 digits. But had it wrong for 3 times is a bit... Anyhow, I had my F5 now, so I good enough.

I really need to say special thanks to UPS. Without their help, my F5 is long gone. UPS Europe send me 2 emails in the second day. They apologize for the delay and claim they had forward my request to the proper department. For a company this size, the speed is pretty good. Not to mansion the UPS Romania maybe they handle case like this a lot… Also thanks to the Canadian embassy to Romania, their action is lighting fast (in 3 hours), remember this is a Canadian government department. Usually, they are rather slow...

The Canadian custom open the box and I don’t know if they will charge me any duty for import a F5 from Romania… Hope they won’t. Also, let’s hope UPS won’t charge me for the return ticket. After all, I pay $90USD for the shipping already. Don’t know if ebay will pay it back to me.

So the lost up today is $90 + many phone calls and fax to Europe + the ebay listing fee.

The lesson here is:

1. don’t ship to Romania, it is sad that Romania is famous for internet fraud. I hope they will be famous for some other thing in future. http://www.nethosting.com.ve/wp_tips_fraud.htm “We've listed some of the warning signs of fraud below. The most important is the country of origin. Orders from some countries, particularly Romania, Russia, and Belarus, are nearly 100% fraud.” “Suspect ship address. Most fraudulent orders come from Romania, Russia, Belarus, Pakistan, Macedonia, Lithuania, Egypt, Nigeria, Colombia, Malaysia, and Indonesia.”

2. don’t ship your item that fast. Maybe we need to set a cool down period or something. And only ship to billing address.

3. Be aware of any Paypal payment, especially the amount is big. In I got 2 emails from Paypal saying: "You've Got Cash!" it sounds good, isn't it? One day later, I got another 2 emails saying "It has come to our attention that you may be the recipient of potentially fraudulent funds. We have initiated an investigation into this event. In the meantime, we have placed a pending reversal on the funds in question until the investigation is complete...etc" After Paypal has attention to the money, and withdraw the CASH from my account. They switch their attention to other things and forgot everything about me. Since the first 2 emails they send me, I have not hear a single word from them. When you call them, they told me there is nothing to tell me. Isn’t it a good customer service?

4. When in trouble, try to get help as soon as possible and different place. I use email, phone call, fax, dpreview forum and embassy. And it works.

5. ship with tracking number. Without it, there is nothing can be done.

6. if you feel something don’t seem to be right. Try to slow down the process and ask for more solid information. One of you reply me, suggest to make a phone call to the buyer. Or even cancel the bid. It is better to have a negative feedback than losing money.

May all the glory to UPS.

Thanks again for you guy’s advice

Regard

****
 
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