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Dick Lau of Calgary

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I recently sell my F5 in ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ ... ...torial=0&ed=1029139836&indexURL=0&rd=1 and it is a buyer fraud.

What was happening is this.

The buyer (the person call himself James Scott) contact me few days ago, and ask me if I would ship to Europe, I reply yes. Then he/she told me that he lost/stolen his camera in Romania and really need a replacement camera rush from US or Canada, cause camera cost a lot in Romania. And I reply I can express the F5 to him by UPS. So, he place a bid and I end the auction. Then he pay me in 2 PayPal payment. He said, maybe his wife use up the money in the account, so he has to ask his father to pay for the rest. It is interesting his father has a different last name. I thought that maybe his father in law. So don’t pay too much attention to it.

After I verify he paid full to PayPal. I rush to UPS in that morning and send the camera to Romania, that was yesterday. And this morning, when I open my inbox. I found 2 mails from Paypal that claim I received 2 fraud payments and they are pending the money. So I call up PayPal, and they said it is most likely a fraud and there is nothing they can do. The PayPal insurance will not save me. I will lost the money and my F5. Cause, 1. I sent to an unverified address. 2. I sent to non-US address.

Now, I have a few problems with PayPal. If PayPal can’t verify the payment before they show the OK sign, what are the use of them? Isn’t it a bit too easy to send out a fraud payment from PayPal? Aren’t they secure?

The only hope is UPS. See if UPS can recall the parcel before deliver to Romania. It should arrive Romania in Friday or next money. Now it is still in LOUISVILLE EXPORT, KY, US. at 3:22pm. Hope they can stop it before too late.

The final thought, it is not always safe with PayPal. I know I should not send to a unverified address, but all I try to do is to help someone who is in trouble. And never ship to anyone not in US, not even Canada.

Any suggestion, etc?

--
**** Lau of Calgary
[email protected]
 
Wow, I always thought that PAYPAL was secure. But then again they warn not to ship to a unconfirmed EMail address.

I'd be on UPS to NOT deliver the camera. That IMO is your only hope. If this guy get's your camera, then it's very likely you will be out all expenses, AND the F5.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

Ron
**** Lau said:
I recently sell my F5 in ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ ...
...torial=0&ed=1029139836&indexURL=0&rd=1 and it is a buyer fraud.

What was happening is this.

The buyer (the person call himself James Scott) contact me few days
ago, and ask me if I would ship to Europe, I reply yes. Then he/she
told me that he lost/stolen his camera in Romania and really need a
replacement camera rush from US or Canada, cause camera cost a lot
in Romania. And I reply I can express the F5 to him by UPS. So, he
place a bid and I end the auction. Then he pay me in 2 PayPal
payment. He said, maybe his wife use up the money in the account,
so he has to ask his father to pay for the rest. It is interesting
his father has a different last name. I thought that maybe his
father in law. So don’t pay too much attention to it.

After I verify he paid full to PayPal. I rush to UPS in that
morning and send the camera to Romania, that was yesterday. And
this morning, when I open my inbox. I found 2 mails from Paypal
that claim I received 2 fraud payments and they are pending the
money. So I call up PayPal, and they said it is most likely a fraud
and there is nothing they can do. The PayPal insurance will not
save me. I will lost the money and my F5. Cause, 1. I sent to an
unverified address. 2. I sent to non-US address.

Now, I have a few problems with PayPal. If PayPal can’t verify the
payment before they show the OK sign, what are the use of them?
Isn’t it a bit too easy to send out a fraud payment from PayPal?
Aren’t they secure?

The only hope is UPS. See if UPS can recall the parcel before
deliver to Romania. It should arrive Romania in Friday or next
money. Now it is still in LOUISVILLE EXPORT, KY, US. at 3:22pm.
Hope they can stop it before too late.

The final thought, it is not always safe with PayPal. I know I
should not send to a unverified address, but all I try to do is to
help someone who is in trouble. And never ship to anyone not in US,
not even Canada.

Any suggestion, etc?

--
**** Lau of Calgary
[email protected]
Click to expand...
 
the problem is Paypal has shown the transection is completed. So, what am I going to do?
Just read some stroy about Paypal http://www.paypalsucks.com
It seems deal with Paypal is not a good idea at all.

****

PS. the pakage weight 4lb. UPS shipping cost me $140CAD or 90USD. Maybe your idea will cost me some extra cash.
Jason Busch said:
****,

I always tell the buyer that the funds have to clear my account
before I ship anything. If they don't like it, they can go
somewhere else.

I hope UPS can get your camera back. If you do, make a package with
a few hard-boiled eggs inside, and send it to your buyer.

--
http://pub103.ezboard.com/bthedigitaldinguscommunity
http://d100.topcities.com/
http://e10club.topcities.com/
--
Nikon D100
Nikkor AF-S 80-200mm
Nikkor 50mm 1.4D
SB-80DX
Click to expand...
--
**** Lau of Calgary
[email protected]
 
**** Lau said:
It seems deal with Paypal is not a good idea at all.
Click to expand...
I don't mean to say this in a mean way, but the best way I can say this is, PayPal.com is not your mother. It is not there to protect you from fraud if you decide to take risks. It is only a way for the average person to accept credit card or electronic funds over the internet. If you had a Visa/Mastercard merchant account and accepted payment from James Scott via his credit card, you would not be protected. The bank would deduct the amount of the fraudulent charge from your account. PayPal.com is just an intermediary between you and the credit card bank. Banks protect people who have credit cards from fraud; they don't protect merchants who accept credit card payments. The merchants have to eat the loss.

Here is how it works with PayPal.com. Someone uses a stolen credit card number to make a payment to you. The owner of the credit card sees the charge and declines it. The bank deducts the money from PayPal.com's account. PayPal.com deducts it from your account because you didn't follow their requirements of shipping to a verified address. PayPal.com warned you, you took the risk, so PayPal.com doesn't cover you.

I think you have a good chance of recalling the package if you call UPS right away. It will cost you something for the recall, but it is better than losing your camera.

It really sucks when people use ebay to rob people. You should report this to ebay. It will cause the guy some hassle trying to use ebay again.

I am sorry for your hassles and expense. I hope you get the camera back. We get used to how well the credit card companies protect us as consumers and we think that it will be the same when we sell. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. The sellers absorb the losses.
 
Robin,

I agree your point. But I am just a poor fellow who is trying to sell his old camera in order to get a new one.

But if Paypal willing to make money from foreign country, shouldn't they cover these country as well? If they open a green light for me to send the item out, shouldn’t they guarantee the information that provide to their customer?

****
Robin Casady said:
**** Lau said:
It seems deal with Paypal is not a good idea at all.
Click to expand...
I don't mean to say this in a mean way, but the best way I can say
this is, PayPal.com is not your mother. It is not there to protect
you from fraud if you decide to take risks. It is only a way for
the average person to accept credit card or electronic funds over
the internet. If you had a Visa/Mastercard merchant account and
accepted payment from James Scott via his credit card, you would
not be protected. The bank would deduct the amount of the
fraudulent charge from your account. PayPal.com is just an
intermediary between you and the credit card bank. Banks protect
people who have credit cards from fraud; they don't protect
merchants who accept credit card payments. The merchants have to
eat the loss.

Here is how it works with PayPal.com. Someone uses a stolen credit
card number to make a payment to you. The owner of the credit card
sees the charge and declines it. The bank deducts the money from
PayPal.com's account. PayPal.com deducts it from your account
because you didn't follow their requirements of shipping to a
verified address. PayPal.com warned you, you took the risk, so
PayPal.com doesn't cover you.

I think you have a good chance of recalling the package if you call
UPS right away. It will cost you something for the recall, but it
is better than losing your camera.

It really sucks when people use ebay to rob people. You should
report this to ebay. It will cause the guy some hassle trying to
use ebay again.

I am sorry for your hassles and expense. I hope you get the camera
back. We get used to how well the credit card companies protect us
as consumers and we think that it will be the same when we sell.
Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. The sellers absorb the
losses.
Click to expand...
--
**** Lau of Calgary
[email protected]
 
****,
**** Lau of Calgary said:
If they open a green light for me to send the item out, shouldn’t they guarantee the information that provide to their customer?
Click to expand...
You shipped to an unverified address, correct? This is a red flag when I do business.

2) "My camera got stolen in Romania" - This is another red flag.

3) Needed to get more money from father - Red Flag.

4) Wife maybe used money in the account - Red Flag

5) verfiying money was sent via paypal is not a guarantee. It's just a simple email that tells you that money was transfered. PayPal does not investigate until AFTER money is sent. Why? Because no crime has occurred BEFORE money is sent, and no one is going to complain until the money has changed hands.

The best way to avoid fraud is ship to a verified address. This prevents most fraud, because the person using the stolen credit card, would have to pick up the merchandise at the address of the person they stole the card from.

6) Get a phone number and talk to your potential buyer. I do and I have had success every time.

For future advice, NEVER ship merchandise so fast, unless you receive a cashier's check and verified the check is not a forgery. I always wait until PayPal payments clear so that I don't get emails from PayPal that say, "fraud".

UPS should be able to get the package back to you. I can't understand why not. Even if it is out of the country, they should still send it back to you. I hope the best for you.

--
http://pub103.ezboard.com/bthedigitaldinguscommunity
http://d100.topcities.com/
http://e10club.topcities.com/
--
Nikon D100
Nikkor AF-S 80-200mm
Nikkor 50mm 1.4D
SB-80DX
 
Robin...so what you're saying is that if a person has a "verified" address then the transaction is good to go and you're covered??
Robin Casady said:
Robin Casady said:
It seems deal with Paypal is not a good idea at all.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Robin Casady said:
Here is how it works with PayPal.com. Someone uses a stolen credit
card number to make a payment to you. The owner of the credit card
sees the charge and declines it. The bank deducts the money from
PayPal.com's account. PayPal.com deducts it from your account
because you didn't follow their requirements of shipping to a
verified address. PayPal.com warned you, you took the risk, so
PayPal.com doesn't cover you.
Click to expand...
 
Sorry about your trouble.

Thank you for taking the time tip us off to this kind of thing.

I'd be tempted to re-tell the story all over the internet but repace F5 with "Kilo of cocane" and that UPS couldn't stop it in time. Of course I would include the address as well. I'm sure your friend would have a hard time getting any of his other scammed pakages to make it to final delivery.

Good luck with UPS
Mike
**** Lau said:
I recently sell my F5 in ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ ...
...torial=0&ed=1029139836&indexURL=0&rd=1 and it is a buyer fraud.

What was happening is this.

The buyer (the person call himself James Scott) contact me few days
ago, and ask me if I would ship to Europe, I reply yes. Then he/she
told me that he lost/stolen his camera in Romania and really need a
replacement camera rush from US or Canada, cause camera cost a lot
in Romania. And I reply I can express the F5 to him by UPS. So, he
place a bid and I end the auction. Then he pay me in 2 PayPal
payment. He said, maybe his wife use up the money in the account,
so he has to ask his father to pay for the rest. It is interesting
his father has a different last name. I thought that maybe his
father in law. So don’t pay too much attention to it.

After I verify he paid full to PayPal. I rush to UPS in that
morning and send the camera to Romania, that was yesterday. And
this morning, when I open my inbox. I found 2 mails from Paypal
that claim I received 2 fraud payments and they are pending the
money. So I call up PayPal, and they said it is most likely a fraud
and there is nothing they can do. The PayPal insurance will not
save me. I will lost the money and my F5. Cause, 1. I sent to an
unverified address. 2. I sent to non-US address.

Now, I have a few problems with PayPal. If PayPal can’t verify the
payment before they show the OK sign, what are the use of them?
Isn’t it a bit too easy to send out a fraud payment from PayPal?
Aren’t they secure?

The only hope is UPS. See if UPS can recall the parcel before
deliver to Romania. It should arrive Romania in Friday or next
money. Now it is still in LOUISVILLE EXPORT, KY, US. at 3:22pm.
Hope they can stop it before too late.

The final thought, it is not always safe with PayPal. I know I
should not send to a unverified address, but all I try to do is to
help someone who is in trouble. And never ship to anyone not in US,
not even Canada.

Any suggestion, etc?

--
**** Lau of Calgary
[email protected]
Click to expand...
 
**** Lau said:
But if Paypal willing to make money from foreign country, shouldn't
they cover these country as well? If they open a green light for me
to send the item out, shouldn’t they guarantee the information that
provide to their customer?
Click to expand...
They wouldn't protect you inside your country if you sent to an unconfirmed address. They make it clear that they don't recommend sending to unconfirmed addresses anywhere. So, they didn't really send you a green light. They sent you a yellow light. The message you received was a notification of payment, but it also said that it was not a confirmed address and you would not be covered when sending to an unconfirmed address.
 
Robin,

how long do you have to wait for Paypal before it is safe to send product. I am Canadian and they will not give us secure address cause out side of US. Is there a time limit like cashing a check that after a certian point the paypal is secure? Aslo if the person who pays you has a secured paypal address in US is that safe to mail as soon as you recieve funds. please and thank you, Greg N Sorry about your troubles **** I want to make sure I don't do the same.
Robin Casady said:
**** Lau said:
It seems deal with Paypal is not a good idea at all.
Click to expand...
I don't mean to say this in a mean way, but the best way I can say
this is, PayPal.com is not your mother. It is not there to protect
you from fraud if you decide to take risks. It is only a way for
the average person to accept credit card or electronic funds over
the internet. If you had a Visa/Mastercard merchant account and
accepted payment from James Scott via his credit card, you would
not be protected. The bank would deduct the amount of the
fraudulent charge from your account. PayPal.com is just an
intermediary between you and the credit card bank. Banks protect
people who have credit cards from fraud; they don't protect
merchants who accept credit card payments. The merchants have to
eat the loss.

Here is how it works with PayPal.com. Someone uses a stolen credit
card number to make a payment to you. The owner of the credit card
sees the charge and declines it. The bank deducts the money from
PayPal.com's account. PayPal.com deducts it from your account
because you didn't follow their requirements of shipping to a
verified address. PayPal.com warned you, you took the risk, so
PayPal.com doesn't cover you.

I think you have a good chance of recalling the package if you call
UPS right away. It will cost you something for the recall, but it
is better than losing your camera.

It really sucks when people use ebay to rob people. You should
report this to ebay. It will cause the guy some hassle trying to
use ebay again.

I am sorry for your hassles and expense. I hope you get the camera
back. We get used to how well the credit card companies protect us
as consumers and we think that it will be the same when we sell.
Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. The sellers absorb the
losses.
Click to expand...
 
John P. said:
Robin...so what you're saying is that if a person has a "verified"
address then the transaction is good to go and you're covered??
Click to expand...
There are a number of criteria you have to meet to be protected. To understand it all you need to read their Seller Protection Policy. If you don't meet all the criteria, you take the risk. **** Lau failed to meet several of them. The requirements are rather strict, but to make them more liberal would mean that they would have to pass the cost of increased fraud losses to everyone. Insurance isn't a magic money tree that produces money to cover losses. It is a form of communism, turned into a business, where all the customers share the cost of one person's loss. So, if they were to cover risky conditons, we would be paying higher PayPal.com fees. Here are some of their conditions:

Be a Verified Premier or Verified Business Account (U.S.)
Ship to the buyer's Confirmed Address Timely Shipment
Retain reasonable proof-of-shipment that can be tracked online Ship tangible goods
Only accept single payments from single PayPal accounts Ship to domestic (U.S.) buyers at U.S. addresses
Timely Response

I assume that these are conditons where PayPal.com has determined that the risk is high. They don't prevent you from dealing with with people under these conditions, but they don't protect you either. When the customer provides PayPal.com with an address that is not confirmed, they let you know when they send you a notice of payment received. They also tell you not to ship to an address other than the one they provide.

Shipping to an address other than your credit card billing address is a common danger sign for internet sales. Many online vendors will not ship to another address until you have an established history with them.
 
greg n said:
Robin,
how long do you have to wait for Paypal before it is safe to send
product. I am Canadian and they will not give us secure address
cause out side of US. Is there a time limit like cashing a check
that after a certian point the paypal is secure? Aslo if the person
who pays you has a secured paypal address in US is that safe to
mail as soon as you recieve funds. please and thank you, Greg N
Sorry about your troubles **** I want to make sure I don't do the
same.
Click to expand...
You should check on the PayPal.com site. I'm not really sure, but I doubt there is a cutoff time. IIRC, credit card companies will allow customers to decline charges for several months after the charge was made. So, it can take months before PayPal.com receives a chargeback. If PayPal.com receives a charge-back, you can bet they are going to pass it on to you for conditions their insurance doesn't cover.

IIRC, my software company has received charge-backs as much as three months after a purchase was made. My PayPal.com sales are to people who own high-end astronomy equipment, and so far I've been lucky. I evaluate my risks and know that I may get bitten someday. If I'm not happy with the situation, I'll require a money order or cashier's check.
 
Thank you everyone for your words.

This is the day 2 update.

After I call PayPal yesterday, I know I am alone in the dark. The only hope is UPS.

So I make several phone calls to UPS (maybe around 10 or so, the good thing about calling company as big as UPS is, you will not get the same person to answer the phone, so the operator will not feel annoying). They ask me to keep calling to check the status. At one point, I was told the camera is still in the UPS parcel centre in US. Later when I check the online tracking from UPS, it shown the camera arrive Germany already. It seems the tracking system is not real-time , it just show the last log. And my guess is, the UPS tracking system is fully automatic (think about the volume), so every UPS Canada make notes on the system for recall, no one will able to check it unless it reach a point that need human process like the delivery. And maybe it can’t do a automatic recall thing.

So I check the UPS web site and check for their Europe office info. I find some fax number, tel number and email. And my another wave of action start. I type a mail in English and send it to all possible UPS centers (UPS Europe HQ, Germany and Romania) and ask for help. I even use German, even I don’t know a single word of it. I use online translator from Altavista. Then I make some phone calls to the UPS Germany, the German phone number system is a bit rare, they put some extra 0 in front of the area code. I have to try it couple times to get the connection. And all I hear is a German lady speaking in German. I can only understand the words, United Parcel Service. I try to press 0 for operator, but no luck. So it is a dead end. Then I try UPS Romania, not to mention I absolutely know nothing about Romania, I even go to CIA’s web site to check what language they use. When someone packing up the phone, the first thing I said was, DO you know English? Thank God he knows. So we talk about what is happening and I request for a recall. And he told me he got the fax. At that point I see the light.

After calling UPS, I check dpreview and see if there is any other suggestion, ephotoa ask me to call US embassy for help. Since I am a Canadian, I think I better off calling Canadian embassy of Romania. After all, I don’t want to waste the money of America tax payer. I send an email to the general inquiry of the embassy at 1am this morning. And I got a reply from the embassy at 4am. The lady told me the situation has been take care of, UPS Romania will send it back to me when they have it in hands.

This is the update of day 2.

If you really want to know the route of my camera, this is the link, click DETAIL to see more

http://wwwapps.ups.com/etracking/tracking.cgi?tracknums_displayed=5&error_carried=yes&TypeOfInquiryNumber=T&HTMLVersion=4.0&sort_by=status&InquiryNumber1=w7501959290&InquiryNumber2=&InquiryNumber3=&InquiryNumber4=&InquiryNumber5=&track=Track

****
 
congrats ****, the link says that its goiong back to you!
alfred
**** Lau said:
Thank you everyone for your words.

This is the day 2 update.

After I call PayPal yesterday, I know I am alone in the dark. The
only hope is UPS.

So I make several phone calls to UPS (maybe around 10 or so, the
good thing about calling company as big as UPS is, you will not get
the same person to answer the phone, so the operator will not feel
annoying). They ask me to keep calling to check the status. At one
point, I was told the camera is still in the UPS parcel centre in
US. Later when I check the online tracking from UPS, it shown the
camera arrive Germany already. It seems the tracking system is not
real-time , it just show the last log. And my guess is, the UPS
tracking system is fully automatic (think about the volume), so
every UPS Canada make notes on the system for recall, no one will
able to check it unless it reach a point that need human process
like the delivery. And maybe it can?t do a automatic recall thing.

So I check the UPS web site and check for their Europe office info.
I find some fax number, tel number and email. And my another wave
of action start. I type a mail in English and send it to all
possible UPS centers (UPS Europe HQ, Germany and Romania) and ask
for help. I even use German, even I don?t know a single word of it.
I use online translator from Altavista. Then I make some phone
calls to the UPS Germany, the German phone number system is a bit
rare, they put some extra 0 in front of the area code. I have to
try it couple times to get the connection. And all I hear is a
German lady speaking in German. I can only understand the words,
United Parcel Service. I try to press 0 for operator, but no luck.
So it is a dead end. Then I try UPS Romania, not to mention I
absolutely know nothing about Romania, I even go to CIA?s web site
to check what language they use. When someone packing up the phone,
the first thing I said was, DO you know English? Thank God he
knows. So we talk about what is happening and I request for a
recall. And he told me he got the fax. At that point I see the
light.

After calling UPS, I check dpreview and see if there is any other
suggestion, ephotoa ask me to call US embassy for help. Since I am
a Canadian, I think I better off calling Canadian embassy of
Romania. After all, I don?t want to waste the money of America tax
payer. I send an email to the general inquiry of the embassy at 1am
this morning. And I got a reply from the embassy at 4am. The lady
told me the situation has been take care of, UPS Romania will send
it back to me when they have it in hands.

This is the update of day 2.

If you really want to know the route of my camera, this is the
link, click DETAIL to see more

http://wwwapps.ups.com/etracking/tracking.cgi?tracknums_displayed=5&error_carried=yes&TypeOfInquiryNumber=T&HTMLVersion=4.0&sort_by=status&InquiryNumber1=w7501959290&InquiryNumber2=&InquiryNumber3=&InquiryNumber4=&InquiryNumber5=&track=Track

****
Click to expand...
--

=================
http://www.pbase.com/abudschitz
=================
 
Hi

Be carful from Paypal.I lost $600.00 and they also charged me the service charge.I sold the camera they payed me.one day they pulled out $600.00 from my account. toled me that the prevus sell was froud.they are never update you on a froud before they get the money and then never helping you.If they updated me on time I wold have time to stop the shipping.but it was more importend for them to get my money first.but to late for me I already shipped the product .never saw the money or the camera. I will never sell and ship a product before the money is in my hend.use westren union or money order.never paypal.
Jason Busch said:
****,

I always tell the buyer that the funds have to clear my account
before I ship anything. If they don't like it, they can go
somewhere else.

I hope UPS can get your camera back. If you do, make a package with
a few hard-boiled eggs inside, and send it to your buyer.

--
http://pub103.ezboard.com/bthedigitaldinguscommunity
http://d100.topcities.com/
http://e10club.topcities.com/
--
Nikon D100
Nikkor AF-S 80-200mm
Nikkor 50mm 1.4D
SB-80DX
Click to expand...
 
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