Petition for a Canon 20D MkII (8MP no noise)

Give us the same sensor as in the 5D-I in a body with the latest screen, dust protection, micro AF adjustment (no need for higher frame rate per second), and Digic IV, and the camera would be a best seller!!!
Armando.
--
'Heavens declare the glory of God,' and I hope my pictures will too.
http://www.pbase.com/arodri3
 
Well, while you may seem be an electronic engineer I am just a
photographer. I really don't care about the electronics behind the
sensor and how it works.
If you're going to be making proposals as to how Canon should design their cameras, it just might be helpful to know something about how sensors work.
What I do care about is results!
And who doesn't?
And while I may be a just a dumb photographer there are a few
observable issues I can see in my photographs, based on using a
variety of different cameras with different sensor sizes.

1. The more pixels you put on a given sensor size everything else
being equal the more noise that sensor will produce per pixel.
Except for extremely low light applications, or very, very deep shadows of well-lit scenes, it is not the sensor that is "producing" the noise. The sensor is merely recording the noise (more accurately, statistical fluctuation) that is already in the light entering the camera. This is the bulk of the noise that is in most images until one gets into deeper shadows; the noise that is produced by the sensor and associated electronics is a small component of the total noise in these situations.
2. The higher the ISO the more noise the sensor will produce.
One uses high ISO because, when the illumination level is low, it reduces the component of noise that the sensor and associated electronics produces. Much of the noise you see is the result of the lower illumination level itself, because the statistical fluctuations in the light level are larger relative to the average illumination, as the average illumination level is reduced. Using higher ISO gets the sensor/electronic noise out of the way, so that you can see the photon noise inherent in the light entering the camera, in all its glory.
3. The darker the scene the more noise the sensor will produce.
Again this is a misconception. The darker the scene, the more noise there is in the light signal itself; the sensor has nothing to do with "producing" this noise. It was there before you ever pressed the shutter button.
This is not based on some flawed understanding of photo cell
technology.
Actually, it is.
Its based on real world result e.g. looking at actually
photographs.
We all agree that you see the effect; you just incorrectly inferred the cause.
'Before honor comes humility.'
It's time for you to be humble.

--
emil
--



http://theory.uchicago.edu/~ejm/pix/20d/
 
Give us the same sensor as in the 5D-I in a body with the latest
screen, dust protection, micro AF adjustment (no need for higher
frame rate per second), and Digic IV, and the camera would be a best
seller!!!
Armando.
Funny, you want a 5D2 with a lower rez sensor. From what I've seen, the 5D2 sensor is not exactly an inferior component.

But you're right, the 5D2 is a best seller!
 
8mp is sufficient for a lot of street photography. Handheld, lowlight work is not exactly taxing when it comes to resolution. In fact, after processing thru Silver Efex for B&W, rez is a secondary consideration. 8 to 10mp FF should provide for clean 6400iso shooting. Now if they can impliment in body image stabilization....can you imaging shooting with a 35mm f1.4 prime at 6400iso?

Nice!!!

Oh....it'll never happen. If Canon isn't even listen to the pro buying their pro bodies....to have a mirror lockup button....then they will never listen to a request like this.

Finally.....how about an 8 or 10mp FF B&W sensor with no bayer filter.
 
LOL^^
It really seems like some people here don't even read before posting :p
 
That is exactly right: I want a 5DII with lower resolution, which will mean smaller files. The quality of the raw 5D file is better than the quality of the 5dII sRAW file.

Plus (and this is IMPORTANT), the price would be lower than the price of the 5DII. Currently there is a huge gap between the price of the 50D and the 5DII.
Canon, FILL THAT GAP!!!!
Armando.
Funny, you want a 5D2 with a lower rez sensor. From what I've seen,
the 5D2 sensor is not exactly an inferior component.

But you're right, the 5D2 is a best seller!
--
'Heavens declare the glory of God,' and I hope my pictures will too.
http://www.pbase.com/arodri3
 
Much of image noise is "photon shot noise", the fluctuations in the number of photons reaching a given patch of sensor in a given amount of time. It is not too difficult to understand the nature of these fluctuations, they are rather ubiquitous in sampling problems.

Consider the following problem (which we'll relate to photography a bit later). A coin is tossed many times and the sequence of results is recorded -- 1 for heads, 0 for tails. Now ask, in any sub-sequence of N consecutive tosses, how many were heads? In the limit of many, many tosses, the answer of course is half of them, N/2, are heads. As the number of tosses gets very, very large, the probability that the answer is something other than half the number of tosses being heads becomes vanishingly small.

In the opposite limit, a single toss, it's either heads or it isn't, zero or one. Either, way, rather far from half the number of tosses, which is 1/2.

In between, we can look at the collection of all subsamples of N consecutive tosses, and ask what is the fluctuation in the "head count". The standard deviation of the head count of N tosses is roughly sqrt[N] 2; that is, most of the samples give a head count within sqrt[N] 2 of the average N/2. For 100 tosses, most of the time the result for the head count will be between 45 and 55.

So in a stream of coin tosses, half are heads, but as we sample the stream more finely, we see local fluctuations in the number of heads that goes like 1/sqrt[sample size] -- the smaller the sample size, the more the fluctuations in the head count are likely to be.

Photon counting statistics works the same way, with minor modifications, because both the coin toss problem and the photon counting problem tend to the same probability distribution (the normal distribution) in the limit of a large number of photons counted, or coins tossed.

As one makes pixels smaller, for a given fixed illumination of the sensor, the photons striking the sensor are grouped into smaller collections or samples. The fluctuations in the sample count are approximately 1/sqrt[average count], just like in the coin toss problem. So as pixel sizes decrease, the number of photons of the total that they are sampling goes down, and the relative fluctuation (which we perceive as noise) goes up.

But nothing about the photons has changed, what has changed is our sampling of those photons; necessarily the smaller samples have more fluctuations, and so necessarily increased resolution brings with it increased noise at the level of individual samples -- the pixel level -- even though nothing about the image being recorded is different. And one can recover the effect of larger pixels simply by grouping the smaller samples together into larger samples; this is what binning or downsampling does. Inexorably, the fluctuations will decrease with the larger sample size. But note that one doesn't need to do the binning to have the noise-lowering effect of larger sample size -- it's already there in the recorded data, in the same way that in the coin toss problem, the sequence of tosses is fixed and only our grouping of them into larger samples affects the fluctuations in the head count.

Oh, and by the way, the next time you hear the results of a poll, and it is said to be accurate to + - 3 percent, you can figure that they asked about a thousand people (sqrt[1000] 1000~.03).

--
emil
--



http://theory.uchicago.edu/~ejm/pix/20d/
 
That is exactly right: I want a 5DII with lower resolution, which
will mean smaller files. The quality of the raw 5D file is better
than the quality of the 5dII sRAW file.
Plus (and this is IMPORTANT), the price would be lower than the price
of the 5DII. Currently there is a huge gap between the price of the
50D and the 5DII.
Canon, FILL THAT GAP!!!!
Armando.
Why would the price be lower? A higher resolution doesn't make a sensor more expensive. Keeping on running a separate line for a lower resolution version of a sensor, and putting in the R&D to make a 5D2 "lite" does. I suppose there are some people like you who can't settle for either 10 MP or 21 MP and must have 12.8 precisely, but I doubt there are enough to produce a whole separate camera just to help you save a bit of storage space. I think Canon's too sensible to listen to your request. :-)
 
To make the relation of the coin toss analogy to photography a bit more vivid, we can take the coin tosses and arrange them into a pixel array:



White pixels are heads, black are tails; I had the computer generate the values randomly (well, as random as computers can get). We can now bin the results in groups of 2x2,4x4,8x8,16x16, and 32x32 pixels; in the following sequence, the grayscale level is the percentage of heads (white) in that NxN block:



As the blocks get bigger and bigger, the fluctuations between blocks go down and down; this is the effect of bigger samples having smaller fluctuation. If you take the animated gif into photoshop, you should see the width of the histogram go down as you step through the frames; that is the decrease in fluctuations that comes with larger sample sizes. Note that nothing has been done to the original set of "coin tosses"; all I have done is to group them together. In other words, nothing has been done to the original "image"; only the coarseness at which that image is sample is changing.

Note that I have purposely kept the image size fixed during the coarse-graining of the image, so that one can see the tradeoff of noise vs resolution. Those who are inclined to pixel peep would make the following comparison:



This is the same binning as before, but now the binned regions are rescaled to the size of a single pixel. The pixel-peeper says, "look how much less noise there is with bigger pixels!", when in fact what they are observing is the smaller fluctuations inherent on larger scales in the image, made by larger samples of photons. I hope it is clear for those who think that the pixel-level view is somehow "absolute" that the pixel level is representing different scales in the image depending on the level of resolution that the pixel achieves (hint: the image size changes with each binning).

BTW, the original image is close to what would be observed in a hypothetical super-duper high pixel count sensor which resolves individual photons, when the sensor is halfway to saturation; either a photon is detected at a given pixel or it isn't, and half saturation means that on average half the pixels detect a photon. Suitable coarse-graining achieves grayscale values according to the percentage of pixels that record a photon. If I had skewed the coin toss so that the probability of heads was P instead of 1/2, then a fraction P of the pixels would be white and the grayscale level would be P after coarse-graining. The photon component of noise at larger scales is no more nor less than it would be with a conventional large pixel sensor of today.

--
emil
--



http://theory.uchicago.edu/~ejm/pix/20d/
 
LOL^^
It really seems like some people here don't even read before posting :p
--

Really? I suggest you read the OP again. I suggested FF....but it could still be APS-C. I basically agreed with everything the OP suggested....and offered an opinion as to the cameras use.

Maybe in the future, you should read the OP and the post in question and think about it before you launch off with a criticism that has no merit.

Really, posts like yours are such a waste of bandwidth.
 
Do you know how many photons hit a pixel (of a sensor of your choice) in some typical light. In the film days, if I remember well, f/8, ISO 100 and 1/125 was the recommendation for taking shots in a sunny day but not in direct sunlight. You can take this as a base.
 
Well, as always there are multi opinions here. Some people here are obviously more technically oriented than most of us and may have a better understand of the technology involved.

Personally, I just want a very clean low MP body. I don't need anything more than 8-10MP for 90% of the stuff. If I do, I can pull out the 1Ds.

AND...I can personally tell you that while the pro bodies are nice...they are also more bulky and heavy and Canon pro-consumer cameras have gotten so good that with an L-class lens the image quality is a non-issue.

Actually, probably more than anything else...a good lens makes all the difference in the world. I certainly don't understand the technical aspects behind it...but there is a definite visible difference between Canon L-class lens and the non-L ones. So save your money on a pro body and buy a good L lens instead :)

--
Regards,
Allan Gobin
http://www.nex-creative.com

'Before honor comes humility.'
 
"Really, posts like yours are such a waste of bandwidth."

Don't worry, it was a very short post, so not much bandwidth used ;)

Also, I am not talking about the OP, I am talking about all that was said here.

But I'll stop there, because some people really do not want to understand the issue.
 
Do you know how many photons hit a pixel (of a sensor of your choice)
in some typical light. In the film days, if I remember well, f/8, ISO
100 and 1/125 was the recommendation for taking shots in a sunny day
but not in direct sunlight. You can take this as a base.
The saturation level of the 40D pixel is about 41000 electrons ( 1250 e- µ^2); for the 1D3 it's about 70000 electrons ( 1350 e- µ^2).

Thus a midtone at the base ISO of 100 has about 20000 photons/pixel; fluctuations in the count are about sqrt[20000] 140 which is the S/N of the pixel in the capture. BTW, the read noise is only about 16 photons equivalent.

At ISO 1600 one has only a bit over 1000 photons in a midtone; fluctuations are sqrt[1000] 1000 or about 3%, so quite noticeable (that's about 7-8 8-bit levels). The roughly 30 photons equivalent is still much more than the roughly 4 photons equivalent of read noise at ISO 1600.

--
emil
--



http://theory.uchicago.edu/~ejm/pix/20d/
 
You're already in Kansas...you've been there all along...

Seriously, what you want can be done by downsampling output of a 50D down to 8MP. The choice of downsampling filter makes a difference here. You'd like to use something like the Lanczos filter. Voila! You have your low-noise 8MP body.
 
Well...lets see...I guess the 24 people who have signed the petition thus far would beg to differ :)

And I thought that is what a "forum" is about. A place to discuss ideas and share opinions. Or maybe you have a different opinion of what a forum is :)
"Really, posts like yours are such a waste of bandwidth."

Don't worry, it was a very short post, so not much bandwidth used ;)

Also, I am not talking about the OP, I am talking about all that was
said here.
But I'll stop there, because some people really do not want to
understand the issue.
--
Regards,
Allan Gobin
http://www.nex-creative.com

'Before honor comes humility.'
 
I was typing too fast to be the edit window, so didn't check the math properly.
Do you know how many photons hit a pixel (of a sensor of your choice)
in some typical light. In the film days, if I remember well, f/8, ISO
100 and 1/125 was the recommendation for taking shots in a sunny day
but not in direct sunlight. You can take this as a base.
The saturation level of the 40D pixel is about 41000 electrons ( 1250
e- µ^2); for the 1D3 it's about 70000 electrons ( 1350 e- µ^2).
So far, so good.
Thus a midtone [for the 40D] at the base ISO of 100 has about 20000 photons/pixel;
fluctuations in the count are about sqrt[20000] 140 which is the S/N
of the pixel in the capture. BTW, the read noise is only about 16
photons equivalent.
Half the saturation count is only one stop down; midtones are about 3-4 stops down in practice. Let's say four stops. Then at ISO 100 on the 40D one has 40000/16~2500 photons, with a counting fluctuation of about 50.
At ISO 1600 one has only a bit over 1000 photons in a midtone;
fluctuations are sqrt[1000] 1000 or about 3%, so quite noticeable
(that's about 7-8 8-bit levels). The roughly 30 photons equivalent
is still much more than the roughly 4 photons equivalent of read
noise at ISO 1600.
Same mistake. Now one has about 40000/16=2500 photons at RAW saturation at ISO 1600 (ie 1/16 of the saturation level of ISO 100), and midtones are another 3-4 stops down from that. Now we're only talking about 150 photons, with a fluctuation in the count of about 12-13, about 8%. The midtone is about 100-120 in 8-bit tonal levels, 8% of that is about 8-10 levels.

--
emil
--



http://theory.uchicago.edu/~ejm/pix/20d/
 

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