Odd parallel between Nikon D700/D3 and Oly E-3

G'day again.

OK, "sensible cross-system comparisons" it is. Tell us how that works. Above, you compare 50mm on 4/3 and FF and compare a macro with a fast prime:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=30779820

Is that sensible? Wouldn't it make more sense to compare the 50/2 macro on 4/3 with the 100/2.8 macro on FF? I'm just asking.

Next, you compare the 50/2 macro on 4/3 with the 50/1.4 on APS-C:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=30781160

Wouldn't it be more "sensible" to compare to a 60mm or 70mm macro on APS-C? Again, I'm just asking.
 
That is really a very simple equation, if the dof required is deep as
it is with a typical landscape photograph, and the shooting speeds
are the same, there should not be a noise advantage to any format.
This is because a given dof will use the an aperture that will permit
the same amount of light per sensor/film area, given a similar suite
of sensor noise technology, there is no noise advantage.
I don't fully disagree, but why is it that so many of the great landscape photographers shoot in medium format or large format? I would think it was some resolution advantage in larger formats. Of course they're all tripod mounted so sensitivity isn't really a problem as longer shutter speeds can be used.

Could you explain why then someone would choose larger formats for landscapes if there wasn't an advantage to it?

Maybe it's the types of landscape shots... I donno...

--
Cloverdale, B.C., Canada
Olympus e-510 L1
http://joesiv.smugmug.com
 
Gidday MF
There has been no lens test here (AFAIK, please correct me if I am
wrong ... ) where the lens out-performs the Olympus f2/50 macro
across the board.
... But
certainly the SLRGear results from Canon's 100/2.8 on the 5D suggest
that they can be competitive (not quite as sharp from f/2.8-4,
sharper from f/5.6 on up).
I have no doubt whatsoever that there are lenses that will match almost any other lens, IF one chooses the ground on which to make the comparison. My aim with the comparison of the 50mm lenses was to look at their best performance, across the aperture range, on the best resolving body, with the same "true" FL lenses. This allows one to then assess what a camera has to achieve in order to have similar IQ under circumstances that are commonly bandied around here (often for less than charitable reasons ... ). I.E., try to factor in ALL the variables that allow one to reasonably assess the conditions under which a given camera/lens will achieve reasonably similar IQ when compared to another camera/lens.

To me, the things that are involved are:
  • the quality of lenses available for the system;
  • the quality of the sensor (e.g. the well-known problem that Olympus 4/3rds sensors have with noise above about ISO1250 {the E-3}, and ISO800 for any of the other modern Olympus cameras); its noise characteristics and therefore its ISO performance;
  • the build quality and feature set of a given camera. e.g. most Olympus dSLRs have in-body IS. This impacts in that one is then faced with comparing other manufacturers' IS lenses, rather than their non-IS lenses. It is very easy to say, "Oh just use a tripod/monopod", but that rather avoids the issue doesn't it?
AFAIAC, the arguments about DoF are completely spurious. If one wants shallower DoF from a 4/3rds camera, one uses a longer FL lens - this is a given, IMO&E. If one wants more DoF from a larger sensor camera, one stops the lens down, assuming that the lens is of sufficient quality to allow this.

If one wants an UWA it appears that the 7~14 and 9~18 are not exactly bad lenses ...

If one wants quality, one spends the money ...

However, if I had chosen an "equivalent" FL, I would have been damned for doing that, too ... Since the aspect ratios are different, there are NO exact EFLs; so I opted to look at "true" FLs, in front of the sensors that they were designed for.
... it appears that
ALL the SHG Olympus lenses are sharper and better than the f2/50
macro ...
I don't believe that to be the case. Look at SLRGear's 14-35 and
50/2 results for example. At no aperture is the 14-35 unambiguously
sharper than the 50/2, and indeed at least wide open, the 50/2 has
the better corners.
Again, MF, it becomes very difficult to compare differing "true" FLs. The design challenges facing the company are very different for (say) the 7~14; even when comparing it to the 14~35; let alone the Nikon which has a similar EFL, at 14~24.

These design parameters and constraints will also be different for (say) the 7~14; 14~35; f2/50 and the 50~200.

I fully expect the f2/150 to outperform the 50~200 at 150mm, and it does. Ditto, the plane of apparent focus of the f2/50 macro is outside of the design constraints that designing a zoom lens imposes, so it has a flatter plane of focus. NOTHING prevents CanNikSig etc from designing their 'fast 50s' the same way ... .

I have done some comparisons with the various 70~200 lenses also. Just LOVE that lens widget here at DPR! I will wait until DPR review the 50~200 Olympus before I make any comment on their performance. I will be guided by the opinion of mates who own Canons & Nikons as to which of these lenses are considered "good" by their fraternities; as the subject appears to be a minefield to me - certainly on the surface!
Unfortunately, there is a shortage of good test data, but I strongly
doubt the 7-14/4 is anywhere near as sharp at f/4 or f/5.6.
There was a post here recently by someone expecting to see the same detail in the distance in images taken with his 7~14 (I cannot remember what the comparative lens was ... ). WADR, I did wonder what he had been smoking! We all know why we use binoculars, telescopes and magnifying glasses and microscopes, yet this fellow thought he would get the same distance detail from the 7~14 at 7mm as he was seeing from his (IIRC) 40~150 at 150mm ...
AND, according to Olympus, all their lenses will resolve to
20MP on a 4/3rds sensor ...
I'd be a lot more excited by that statement if it was clear what it
meant in practice.
Quite right. I think I am quoting a 'secondary source', the good Mr Jay Turberville on this, rather than Olympus. But then maybe he was quoting Olympus ... ;-).
At 20MP, diffraction will be cutting into resolution rapidly above
f/4 or so. ... .
Since it is highly hypothetical, we will just have to wait and see ... :-)). Gazing fixedly into my crystal ball for a moment, I suspect that we will see new sensor technologies before we hit 20MP - lol! Look at what Sigma are doing with the Foveon chip. Stacking pixels gives much better "resolution", with a far lower "pixel density", than setting them out in a planar linear array as the Bayer sensor does ... .

Anyway, I am becoming very tired; so please forgive any obvious errors in this post ;-).

--
Regards, john from Melbourne, Australia.
-- -- --
The Camera doth not make the Man (or Woman) ...
Perhaps being kind to cats, dogs & children does ...

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Gidday Rob
Good accurate comment John !
Rgds, Rob
Thanks, mate.

I try to be as even-handed as possible when discussing these issues; and also try to get things right.

I do not always succeed totally in either case, but I reckon I try a lot harder than the drive-by-shooters and Internet super-heroes ... BUT then THEY are always so perfect that they have no real name, no website, no gear, never post images, never venture a "true" opinion; and usually have NOTHING of substance to contribute to any discussion or debate.

At least some of us try; even if less than perfect ... ;;^^--)).

--
Regards, john from Melbourne, Australia.
-- -- --

The Camera doth not make the Man (or Woman) ...
Perhaps being kind to cats, dogs & children does ...

Gallery: http://canopuscomputing.com.au/gallery2/main.php

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Gidday Lloyd
Testing my 7-14 vs my 12-60 the 7-14 is pretty uniform across the
image at f4, not bleeding edge sharp anywhere but not soft except in
the extreme corners at 7-9mm and that comes and goes (which leads me
to beleive it is a distortion type issue rather than a 'this lens
isn't sharp here' issue). At 12mm my 12-60 is sharper in the center
of the image but once you get to 1/2, 2/3rds of the way out the 7-14
catches up and will beat it the rest of the way, but the difference
is very small and only visible at 100% in test images of stuff like
newsprint (in other words, not an issue unless you are suffering OCD).
Interesting observations, Lloyd. And yes, some here have OCD - thankfully not one of my oddities ... !

I am looking forward to the DPR testing of the 7~14, and also hopefully, the 14~54 MkII.
This is on my 510. Both lenses look the same on my 330 which leads me
to beleive they out resolve the sensor wide open.
If it's that close, mate, I reckon it could be caused by what we call in astronomical observing 'averted imagination', lol!
With the stronger AA filters on the X20 and E-3 (and presumably e-30
as well) I'd expect finding a difference would be night impossible.
Interesting to see what shows with the E-30 images as they become more prevalent. I like what I have seen so far.

--
Regards, john from Melbourne, Australia.
-- -- --

The Camera doth not make the Man (or Woman) ...
Perhaps being kind to cats, dogs & children does ...

Gallery: http://canopuscomputing.com.au/gallery2/main.php

Hints & Tips (temporary link, as under construction): http://canopuscomputing.com.au/index.php?p=1_9



Bird Control Officers on active service.

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I am not convinced that lenses have a great deal to do with it, other than the ability to select a usable aperture and given a smaller systems convincing capacity to offer more even lens coverage. The OP's intention was to demonstrate that on the same dof there is little or no noise advantage and Sabat came to the same conclusion.

http://www.seriouscompacts.com/2008/12/panasonic-g1-nikon-d700-iso-shootout.html

"My impression is that for any given G1 ISO, the D700 has similar detail relative to noise at four times that ISO. The Nikon file has slightly less noise, but perhaps also slightly less detail when compared this way. This suggests that the sensor quality per unit area is similar for these two cameras."

The only way D700 will show an advantage is shoot with less dof, where it is well understood that it has the capacity to do that, but that assumes your landscape scene is an unconventional 6 inches deep. If I can accept that on occasion that might be, some of the rest of you need to accept that 99.9% of the time the opposite is true.
 
Yep, seems to me there are a lot of people out there who are at serious risk of going blind,......they would be well advised to take more photographs with the gear they have rather than measurebate of what other people have. The gear they have already exceeds their abilities.

It all comes down to the photographer albeit that some gear can be advantagous in some situations,.....but give me good Olympus glass and I'm a very happy shooter.

Good effort John,...keep it up !

rgds, Rob

--
Give a wise man instruction and he is yet wiser !

Olympus E500, E520, 14-45mm, 40-150mm, 11-22mm, 14-54mm, FL36R
 
That is really a very simple equation, if the dof required is deep as
it is with a typical landscape photograph, and the shooting speeds
are the same, there should not be a noise advantage to any format.
This is because a given dof will use the an aperture that will permit
the same amount of light per sensor/film area, given a similar suite
of sensor noise technology, there is no noise advantage.
I don't fully disagree, but why is it that so many of the great
landscape photographers shoot in medium format or large format? I
would think it was some resolution advantage in larger formats. Of
course they're all tripod mounted so sensitivity isn't really a
problem as longer shutter speeds can be used.
Equally a four thirds camera can be tripod mounted and shoot low light landscape scenes, but was that really the question?
Could you explain why then someone would choose larger formats for
landscapes if there wasn't an advantage to it?
because they need to access more pixels less grain for a larger printed size advantage, this should also be true of 35mm users. In the same circumstance, you cannot argue that MF sensors demonstrate less noise (and that was the question), as unfortunately MF sensors as far as I am aware are not particularly well suited to higher ISO shooting.
 
G'day again.

OK, "sensible cross-system comparisons" it is. Tell us how that
works. Above, you compare 50mm on 4/3 and FF and compare a macro
with a fast prime:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=30779820

Is that sensible? Wouldn't it make more sense to compare the 50/2
macro on 4/3 with the 100/2.8 macro on FF? I'm just asking.

Next, you compare the 50/2 macro on 4/3 with the 50/1.4 on APS-C:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=30781160

Wouldn't it be more "sensible" to compare to a 60mm or 70mm macro on
APS-C? Again, I'm just asking.

--
and another to add this, do people go around shooting landscapes at f/1.4?
--
http://illy.smugmug.com [/U]
 
Gidday Illy
Wouldn't it be more "sensible" to compare to a 60mm or 70mm macro on
APS-C? Again, I'm just asking.
and another to add this, do people go around shooting landscapes at
f/1.4?
Who said anything about landscapes?? ;-) Not me!

The comparisons I posted here were trying to show the strengths and weaknesses of the various lenses at all apertures (including comparisons at equal apertures and also at apertures which appeared to be representative of roughly equal IQ).

I even gave a link to the gallery on my web site where I have accumulated a (vaguely representative) group of about 15 such comparisons. I will probably add to this over time; as it is pretty time-consuming to do.

These performance parameters form the basis of informed discussion about how to get the best out of various systems; and what constraints one faces within any particular system. While I am a fan of good lenses (as if no one would have noticed - lol), and I appreciate that it is fairly hard to go 'wrong' with Olympus lenses, there are other constraints that Olympus shooters have to deal with that other systems do not have to the same degree.

The same thing that gives us well-designed and executed lenses with the Olympus system also gives us a smaller, noisier sensor with a little less DR. It appears that the E-30 addresses some of these disparities, in the same way improvements in lens design and execution may help other systems.

ANYONE who thinks that ANY system is "perfect" is just fooling themselves - big time! A (Nikon shooting) friend and I were comparing his D2x and D300 with my E-1 and E-510. We both agreed that each camera and system had some nice features that we would each like to see on our cameras; but also that none were "perfect"; and neither was either system.

--
Regards, john from Melbourne, Australia.
-- -- --

The Camera doth not make the Man (or Woman) ...
Perhaps being kind to cats, dogs & children does ...

Gallery: http://canopuscomputing.com.au/gallery2/main.php

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Bird Control Officers on active service.

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I crave the dynamic range and ISO of these full frame systems but not the size. If size doesn't matter and if you happen to sell images, the economics of FF seem simple enough: More opportunities to make (and possibly sell) stuff that when 4/3 you would have to either i) not take the shot or ii) compromise.

--
Regards
J



http://www.flickr.com/photos/jason_hindle

Gear in profile
 
ANYONE who thinks that ANY system is "perfect" is just fooling
themselves - big time! A (Nikon shooting) friend and I were comparing
his D2x and D300 with my E-1 and E-510. We both agreed that each
camera and system had some nice features that we would each like to
see on our cameras; but also that none were "perfect"; and neither
was either system.

--
Regards, john from Melbourne, Australia.
-- -- --

The Camera doth not make the Man (or Woman) ...
Perhaps being kind to cats, dogs & children does ...

Gallery: http://canopuscomputing.com.au/gallery2/main.php
Hints & Tips (temporary link, as under construction):
http://canopuscomputing.com.au/index.php?p=1_9



Bird Control Officers on active service.

Member of UK (and abroad) Photo Safari Group
this is why a lot of people have dual systems including myself, like yourself i get to play around with many different cameras(must admit i quite like the 5DmkII)and they all have something in common, they are all bloody fantastic lol, we've never had it so good for buying equipment and long may it continue :)
--
http://illy.smugmug.com
 
G'day again Illy
ANYONE who thinks that ANY system is "perfect" is just fooling
themselves - big time! A (Nikon shooting) friend and I were comparing
his D2x and D300 with my E-1 and E-510. We both agreed that each
camera and system had some nice features that we would each like to
see on our cameras; but also that none were "perfect"; and neither
was either system.
this is why a lot of people have dual systems including myself, like
yourself i get to play around with many different cameras(must admit
i quite like the 5DmkII)and they all have something in common, they
are all bloody fantastic lol, we've never had it so good for buying
equipment and long may it continue :)
Exactly right!

I look at shots taken by my mates who shoot with Nikons and envy them some of their features and a LOT of their shots - lol. They look at some of my shots and feel the same.

One of my friends looked at an image I took with another friend's 7~14 and my E-510 and said "How much can I get for all this stuff" - waving at his pretty extensive, & expensive, Nikon gear - "and how much will that lens cost me?" ... Needless to say, I nearly fell off my perch! I told him how much (around Oz $3200 here ... ), and he didn't bat an eyelid ... cheaper than the nearest thing to it in the Nikon line-up, apparently!

As I said up-thread: if you want good gear it will cost; and as Louis D often says "It is the lenses that keep us all poor"; some of us a lot poorer than Louis, I suspect ;-)).

Anyway, lots of nice gear around, and we are all extremely flaming fortunate to be able to afford to have any of it, IMNSHO. Let alone the superb medical treatment I (almost ... ) take for granted.

Take care, Illy; and lots of nice piccies!

--
Regards, john from Melbourne, Australia.
-- -- --

The Camera doth not make the Man (or Woman) ...
Perhaps being kind to cats, dogs & children does ...

Gallery: http://canopuscomputing.com.au/gallery2/main.php

Hints & Tips (temporary link, as under construction): http://canopuscomputing.com.au/index.php?p=1_9



Bird Control Officers on active service.

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It's good to see your point argued with such class and grace. Arguments such as yours are, imo, what the forum should be about. You made an assertion and then backed it up with a set of facts.

If there is an opposing opinion, it should be brought with the same spirit, addressing your assertion, not you directly. That way everyone gets the benefit of both sides of the argument at hand and can use the relevant facts plus their own reseach to come to their own conclusion.

Thanks,
Robert
 
The vast majority [ of non-Olympus } photographers are more than
prepared to pay small fortunes for fast lenses that provide very
narrow depth of field to isolate the subject,
Some of those lenses are even relatively sharp - for about two or
three stops in the middle of their aperture range!
Hello John ,

as a pro wedding event photographer using digital and as a LF landscape photographer I can honestly say that I have never shot an image at f1.2 or f1.4 or f2.0 were critical corner performance was of any real world consequence , for real world use any of the prime macro lenses from any maker provide pretty excellent quality, and as I have clearly stated the excellent lenses are not Olympus’s problem but rather the sensor ,the extreme corner performance of an ultra fast lens makes no real difference whereas noise and poorer dynamic range do , comparing a macro lens to a fast fifty seems somewhat flawed as they are apples and oranges.
Jim
 
Probably someone's noticed this before and sorry I missed it.
--
Yup, that's what's being mentioned in pretty much every 'equivalence' thread, even though people keep insisting that 'equivalence' is some sort of full frame propaganda. Full frame is generally better if (and only if)
1. you want shallow DOF
2. you want speed at the cost of DOF
3. you need better quality at base ISO
4. you need an MP count that only full frame can give you

In all other situations, it's a wash. That - and the cost - is why I'm still using 4/3.

Simon
 
Hi there John,
There has been no lens test here (AFAIK, please correct me if I am
wrong ... ) where the lens out-performs the Olympus f2/50 macro
across the board.
... But
certainly the SLRGear results from Canon's 100/2.8 on the 5D suggest
that they can be competitive (not quite as sharp from f/2.8-4,
sharper from f/5.6 on up).
I have no doubt whatsoever that there are lenses that will match
almost any other lens, IF one chooses the ground on which to make the
comparison. My aim with the comparison of the 50mm lenses was to look
at their best performance, across the aperture range, on the best
resolving body, with the same "true" FL lenses. This allows one to
then assess what a camera has to achieve in order to have similar IQ
under circumstances that are commonly bandied around here (often for
less than charitable reasons ... ). I.E., try to factor in ALL the
variables that allow one to reasonably assess the conditions under
which a given camera/lens will achieve reasonably similar IQ when
compared to another camera/lens.
It seems I misread your original above statement. If you're saying that the 50/2 is the sharpest 50mm lens out there, fair enough. I honestly can't see what that means for practical photography, or even lens design, given that moderate tele macro lenses and fast normals are built for and used for different purposes, but we'll simply have to agree to disagree there.

As to the other things contributing to IQ, things get very subjective very fast...
To me, the things that are involved are:
  • the quality of lenses available for the system;
In the abstract, this is very important, but there are many excellent lenses that no normal person will ever own, so whether the ZD 300/2.8 or the Sigma 120-300/2.8 are 'high quality' lenses is irrelevant to most of us.
  • the quality of the sensor; its noise
characteristics and therefore its ISO performance;
Noise characteristics are a matter of personal preference and are heavily impacted by processing, which makes objective comparison hard...
  • the build quality and feature set of a given camera. e.g. most
Olympus dSLRs have in-body IS. This impacts in that one is then faced
with comparing other manufacturers' IS lenses, rather than their
non-IS lenses.
Or conversely, that with long tele lenses, a stabilized viewfinder can be very important for framing...
AFAIAC, the arguments about DoF are completely spurious. If one wants
shallower DoF from a 4/3rds camera, one uses a longer FL lens - this
is a given,
Well, if you have an unlimited working area and don't care about the other aspects of the image (beyond DoF). How exactly would you get the same look and DoF as an FX lens at 14/2.8 on 4/3? A longer lens is almost guaranteed to drastically alter the perspective.
If one wants an UWA it appears that the 7~14 and 9~18 are not exactly
bad lenses ...
But they are not unambiguously superior to the alternatives in all respects either.
... it appears that
ALL the SHG Olympus lenses are sharper and better than the f2/50
macro ...
I don't believe that to be the case. Look at SLRGear's 14-35 and
50/2 results for example.
Again, MF, it becomes very difficult to compare differing "true" FLs.
So what you meant above is that all SHG Olympus lenses at 50mm are sharper and better than the 50/2? Quite possibly true, but you're talking about a class of 1 - the 35-100.
The design challenges facing the company are very different for (say)
the 7~14; even when comparing it to the 14~35...
The design challenges facing a company building a fast tele-zoom and a medium tele macro are also different.
NOTHING prevents CanNikSig etc
from designing their 'fast 50s' the same way ... .
Except that if they designed the lens the same way, they'd be producing slower moderate tele lenses. Which coincidentally is exactly what they do.
I'd be a lot more excited by that statement if it was clear what it
meant in practice.
Quite right. I think I am quoting a 'secondary source', the good Mr
Jay Turberville on this, rather than Olympus. But then maybe he was
quoting Olympus ... ;-).
Jay tends to know his stuff. The question is whether the person he heard it from does too...
At 20MP, diffraction will be cutting into resolution rapidly above
f/4 or so. ... .
Since it is highly hypothetical, we will just have to wait and see
... :-)). Gazing fixedly into my crystal ball for a moment, I suspect
that we will see new sensor technologies before we hit 20MP - lol!
Look at what Sigma are doing with the Foveon chip. Stacking pixels
gives much better "resolution", with a far lower "pixel density",
than setting them out in a planar linear array as the Bayer sensor
does ...
It can also makes noise issues more difficult (certainly a problem Foveon has faced). But the issue isn't particularly hypothetical. Already we have 4/3 lenses whose sweet spot appear beyond the diffraction limit of the current 12MP sensors (9-18mm at 18mm). I strongly suspect we will see several MP increases (perhaps to 20MP even) before we get beyond Bayer.

Cheers,

--
MFBernstein

'Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit.' - Ed Abbey
 
It's good to see your point argued with such class and grace.
Arguments such as yours are, imo, what the forum should be about. You
made an assertion and then backed it up with a set of facts.

If there is an opposing opinion, it should be brought with the same
spirit, addressing your assertion, not you directly. That way
everyone gets the benefit of both sides of the argument at hand and
can use the relevant facts plus their own reseach to come to their
own conclusion.

Thanks,
Robert
I'm not sure it's really an opposing opinion, but I do have some questions. First, as was asked earlier in this thread, but not answered, why compare 50mm macro on FT with 50mm fast normal on FF? I'm missing the point of the comparison.

Secondly, given that you are going to compare 50mm on both systems, regarding this post:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=30779820

why were f/11, f/2.8, and f/2 the selected apertures in the comparison for FF, but not f/4, f/5.6, or f/8? It would seem to me that the most common apertures that a FF user would use, if they were interested in sharpness, and not DOF, would be f/5.6 and f/8.
 
when does resolution really matter?..IOTW, What are the thresholds for resolution or MP that show significant differences in say a 20x24? 10mp vs 12 vs 15 vs 20?
 

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