D3X Versus a medium format camera on price/quality

T I Wood

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I had placed a reserve (9th) months ago, with Gray's of Westminster for a D3X, I phoned them yesterday and asked if any had come in, they said yes 20 on Friday which have all gone to those on the list. To which I replied you did not phone me! and you should have! But I do not want it at £5,500 so don't worry. Then Gray told me their was likely to be a large price hike in the New Year on most of the Nikon gear due to the weak pound and that the d3x was realisticly priced with that in mind.

Well if you believed Nikon's medium format claims about the D3x and they were true the price would be fair. If you look at the other forums on here and see the comparisons the D3X is good compared to the Sony A900 and Canon 5D 11 but not that much better. Certainly nowhere near as good as a medium format camera. The price should have started tops at £3,500 and dropped in months.

Hasselblad and Leaf have dropped their prices by almost 50%, with their second hand gear having also dropped. The D3X is now priced in medium format territory yet it can not come anywhere near to the quality.

I will probably buy a H3D11-39 Hasselblad, which I will try on 6th January, and perhaps sell all my Nikon gear. Their is the Leica S2 due out in 2009 or probably 2010, claimed like Nikon to be a new medium format competitor, in this case it probably is, but when? and how much?

Who would have guessed a few months ago that, medium format would end up being so much more obtainable?

Their should be a Hasselblad/Leaf/Medium Format forum here also?

What do you all think?
--
Tim Wood
 
I had placed a reserve (9th) months ago, with Gray's of Westminster
for a D3X, I phoned them yesterday and asked if any had come in, they
said yes 20 on Friday which have all gone to those on the list. To
which I replied you did not phone me! and you should have! But I do
not want it at £5,500 so don't worry. Then Gray told me their was
likely to be a large price hike in the New Year on most of the Nikon
gear due to the weak pound and that the d3x was realisticly priced
with that in mind.
Regardless of the pound, the D3x isn't unrealistically priced right now.
Well if you believed Nikon's medium format claims about the D3x and
they were true the price would be fair. If you look at the other
forums on here and see the comparisons the D3X is good compared to
the Sony A900 and Canon 5D 11 but not that much better. Certainly
nowhere near as good as a medium format camera. The price should have
started tops at £3,500 and dropped in months.
People make the common mistake of hinging price totally on how the camera stacks up to other bodies. To many, the fact that the D3x is arguably better all around than the other hi res. dslr cameras, and doesn't require a Nikon shooter to sell his/her gear off, makes the camera worth the price.

The expense, time, and hassle that it takes to sell off Nikon gear, purchase new gear/lenses (if they're in stock) is a pain in the neck.. and while you're waiting for lenses to come in, what are you shooting with in the mean time? Most photographers don't have thousands of dollars lying around that enables them to purchase new gear before selling off their old gear. People don't go into detail about that kind of 'real life' stuff here on the forums..
Hasselblad and Leaf have dropped their prices by almost 50%, with
their second hand gear having also dropped. The D3X is now priced in
medium format territory yet it can not come anywhere near to the
quality.
The D3x isn't priced anywhere near Medium Format territory, unless you plan to shoot film in a medium format camera... which brings about another laundry list of expense and hassle. You can't get a good medium format digital camera (that I know of) for $8k, all inclusive. If you know of one, please bring it to my attention.

Basically if you're not looking at the old Hasselblad 503cw, 16mp, manual focus camera which sells at over $10k U.S., then you're talking about spending at LEAST $15,000 for a decent MF camera and digital back.
I will probably buy a H3D11-39 Hasselblad, which I will try on 6th
January, and perhaps sell all my Nikon gear. Their is the Leica S2
due out in 2009 or probably 2010, claimed like Nikon to be a new
medium format competitor, in this case it probably is, but when? and
how much?
Is this the camera you're talking about? Because it's almost $20,000 or basically nearly 3 times the amount of the D3x. Have you looked at how expensive fast syncing MF (medium format) lenses are? Face it, MF digital is FAR more expensive than the D3x, even with prices falling.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/522925-REG/Hasselblad_70380550_H3DII_31_SLR_Digital_Camera.html
Who would have guessed a few months ago that, medium format would end
up being so much more obtainable?
Honestly, I don't know what prices you've been looking at, but most photographers (pro or otherwise) cannot begin to afford a quality MF kit, with quality lenses.
Their should be a Hasselblad/Leaf/Medium Format forum here also?
I wish there was a MF forum on DP, I'd be very, very interested.
What do you all think?
I sincerely think you believe that MF is a lot cheaper than it really is. It's not cheap, not even today. The new Mamiya will cost around $15,000 for a 28mp body, and you haven't even started buying lenses, flash units, etc..
--
Tim Wood
When you get down to the nitty gritty, and talk about real-world options, the D3x isn't ridiculously priced as many here seem to think. In my humble and respectful opinion, people who feel the D3x is grossly expensive haven't done their homework on the alternatives, how much it will cost in direct and indirect costs to switch from Nikon to another brand, nor have they factored in what work they might be losing going with a MF body only.

MF bodies are great! ... but, eh.. a dingy badly lit gym, a poorly lit church, and or the sidelines of a football game are prime examples of where a lot of shooters make their money, and where MF cameras aren't usually the best tool for the job when compared to a dslr.

Regroup. Run the numbers again against your needs and wants, and figure out the best course of action... paying nearly $20,000 for a MF camera just because you think a $8k Nikon is expensive seems a bit rash. ;)

If you truly needed MF quality because it was critical to your work, you probably wouldn't have been looking at the D3x (or any other dlsr) to begin with, nor would you likely be looking at the 1.3x crop, 31mp Hasselblad. :)

Cordially
--
Teila K. Day
 
You may be right in general,

but I think you're missing his point. medium format digital prices are moving down at a fairly steady rate. the Hasselblad 503 16mp system 36mm sq sensor with lens is now 10,999 at Calumet. and the Mamiya 28mp system with lens in 13,999 there also. Of course I'm not saying that they are the equivalent, or as flexible as the Nikon d3x. But if I'm about to sink 8,000 into a camera, don't you think I'm going to take a close look at the competition?
--
Levi Starks
 
There was a recent post (over last weekend) that compared images from 3 cameras... the D3X, a second 35mm format body (can't remember if it was Canon or Sony), and a medium format digital back (forget which one as well).

There was no comparison between the MF back and the two 35mm format sensors. It almost seemed to me that if you were going to drop $8K on a body you should scrounge up a few more and go for MF. Otherwise, stick to the D3 or D700.
--
Mike Dawson
 
There was a recent post (over last weekend) that compared images from
3 cameras... the D3X, a second 35mm format body (can't remember if
it was Canon or Sony), and a medium format digital back (forget which
one as well).

There was no comparison between the MF back and the two 35mm format
sensors. It almost seemed to me that if you were going to drop $8K
on a body you should scrounge up a few more and go for MF.
Otherwise, stick to the D3 or D700.
--
Mike Dawson
Howdy Mike

MF and LF cameras are better that any current dlsr on the market. The D3x isn't suppose to replace these cameras, but rather offer a realistic alternative to many photographers who aren't ready or willing to shell out over $20k for a MF digital back & camera.

That's the whole point behind the D3x. There is no such thing as scrounging a 'few more' dollars to shoot MF with a digital back. It's honestly an entirely different level of expense, except for the very cheap models.

The 28mp Mamiya will sell for about $15,000 US. that is nearly twice the cost of the D3x, and you haven't even started adding premium MF lenses yet (you should see the cost of them!) The D3x is geared to satisfy those who need more resolution, but aren't quite requiring the critical IQ of a quality MF body, digital back, and quality MF lens, which will basically cost upward $30,000 in the real world.

There isn't a current DSLR that matches the IQ of a medium format body. However, the D3x provides a great alternative to being restricted by the 12mp (or so) resolution typical of most professional dslrs.

Those that think a good MF digital system is even close to the real world cost of the D3x are badly mistaken.. I can't think of one really nice MF system that is remotely close to the cost of the D3x. Not even close. :)
--
Teila K. Day
 
There was a recent post (over last weekend) that compared images from
3 cameras... the D3X, a second 35mm format body (can't remember if
it was Canon or Sony), and a medium format digital back (forget which
one as well).

There was no comparison between the MF back and the two 35mm format
sensors.
It's here:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=30419028

However, keep in mind that the author has acknowledged the fact that both lens selection and raw conversion with the Nikons were not optimal.

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=30519&pid=246163&mode=threaded&show=&st=#entry246163

MF is clearly still significantly better, but this image quality comes at a very high price in terms of convenience.

Cheers,
Bernard
 
You make a good point, but one can now buy a first class second hand Hasselblad in the UK for £4,700 + Vat @ 15% ($6,920) to £7,000 + Vat @ 15% ($10,305), with a digital back, with very few actuations.

http://www.procentre.co.uk/secondhand_Equipment.html#hasselblad_h

Or buy a new Hasselblad H3DII-31 kit (body and 80mm lens). £9,795 ($14,420) +VAT, Hasselblad H3DII-39 kit (body and 80mm lens). £12,225 ($18,000) +VAT
The lenses are more expensive than a 35mm equivilent.

If you came over from the USA I think you would be able to claim your Vat (15%) back!

Before the prices dropped a couple of months ago I could not afford or think of a digital backed medium format, and Nikon's publicity was that the D3X would be a medium format competitor, it is not. For what it is the price is silly.

The Hasselblad will meet my main need of furniture, interior and architectual shoots to a quality less than medium format is nowhere near yet. Although I wish it was! As I hoped to save money, but the end result warrants it.

For auto focus, action shots, day to day people photos Nikon (35mm digital) is brilliant and medium format cannot touch it. Which is why I will also probably keep my Nikon kit and now buy a D700, having just sold a D200.

I think we are in for an exiting couple of years as the cameras get better and better. Hopefully more affordable, with a world recession making us demand better for less.

What do we do to try and have a medium format forum here?

Happy Christmas everyone.

--
Tim Wood
 
I think the D3x will be a new alternative for photographers who want high IQ in situations where a MF is just impossible to carry and set up.
Low light situations, fast moving objects, far from roads and so on.
 
The test with P45 is a bit unfari, it's obvious doubling the res you'll have some advantage, even more if you upres the D3x file as was done.

There's another one, more interesting IMO, posted in the Canon forum, it showed the Canon about matched the Hassy in DR/colors and, to my eye, beat it in detail. It was by someone at LL:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=30163638
--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)
 
In the next couple of years I think the resolutions of both 35mm digital and medium format with be staggering. But I also think prices will come down to a more affordable range for everyone.

The d3x is undoubtedly a good camera but not a match for medium format at the moment and the price will drop and eventually there will be very much better cameras for much less. By that time the d3x equivilent will probably do a great deal more, and perhaps be the quality of the present medium format! Lets hope so - we will all have better tools to achieve a perfect shot. It is just a case of getting the best for ones needs now, to a budget and these forums help discuss such points. Along with many other photographic discussions such as showing ones photos for others views.
--
Tim Wood
 
I think there is a convergence of markets. As DSLR reaches higher it has certainly closed the gap between MF. Keep in mind a double in MP only yields a 25% gain in resolution and in many cases this resolution is redundant for many reproduction needs. Now the argument that lenses are more expensive is not entirely true. In order to take advantage of D3X high MP count you need the best lenses Nikon can offer these typically cost in the range of $1400 and up. Now if Nikon redesigns some of its primes and sells them reasonably I for one would be very pleased. Current crop of primes I have do not compare to Nikon's newest lenses.

Where MF beats Nikon and Canon IMHO is long term investment. I am unsure how much more pixels they can pack into the format of 35mm. However MF can continue to up the MP for sometime. Now do I really need all that information. So if I were to make the investment in MF now and spend the additional $6000 or so I could spread that out over a longer period of time then I could with a D3X perhaps. My current buying cycle for DSLR is about 18 months not very long for an equipment investment of several thousand dollars or $8000 for the D3X. That is why I choose not to buy the D3X it is just to much money for something that will last less then two years.
--
Enjoy the Day

Paul Guba New Jersey Photographer
http://www.gubavision.com
 
I think there are some great points here but I have used the H1 and Mamiya AFD II (both w/120 backs) and the AF is not going to work for most of my stuff....I love all out resolution as much as the next guy but with the D3x I feel like I would be getting a real boost in resolution WITHOUT giving up anything

and other could go the 400 and over ISO issues, the available lens issues and no to mention cost, used Hassy is not an option either as it runs several hundred dollars for a cleaning...I would hate to think of what an out of warranty repair would do to my bottom line (many thousands for a basic fix I would think)

Sadly you could not give me the H3d as I could not afford enough lenses to really make it a viable option even in a studio, the digital Mamiya could be an option as its older manual lenses are more within my cost/return figures

Ray
The d3x is undoubtedly a good camera but not a match for medium
format at the moment...
--
http://www.TheSBimage.com
 
Price alone is not the point..nor is "ultimate performance"..what is the point is one is a medium format camera and one is a"35mm" style camera.

The subjects you shot and the way you work with the kit is different. The MF digitals are still limited in market size..max 800 asa, noisy at that, no AA filters so moire can be a problem..but get it right with a Zeiss or Schneider primes and the results are clear to see..

I always was a "medium format" kind of guy, using 'Blads for most of my 25 year wedding career..I really miss the whole feel, weight and quality. I could not be more delighted that the prices on MF digital are dropping because it means I may be able to climb back into that format at some time...

For me eye level 35mm size viewfinders and rapid fire rate has never really done it for me...although I suspect I will add a D700 to my armoury first for low light and 35mm style photography....I too think I will wait because good though the D3x is, it still ain't MF digital is it?!
 
Looking at the samples of the 20+ MP DSLRs it's clear we start to hit the ceiling of lens performance, so I doubt there's much room for more MP in the future for Nikon. MF is already at 50-60 MP.

--
Philip

 
I love it!!! A year ago I predicted here that the gap between 35mm DSLRs and low-end MF would begin to significantly narrow - and I was right; I predicted a blood bath within 2-3 years - we will see used 30 MP backs at $8K and new ones around $12K before long as the very high end backs continue to emerge.

Once the big sensor, high grade Phase 1 backs drop into the sub 10K range, why in the world would anyone NOT want such a high-quality modular system where neither the lenses nor the bodies need to be replaced; then you can have it both ways - a real nice D700/D3 on the small/low light portable end and a HQ MF on the high end.

We will most certainly return to a price/performance ratio very much like that which existed between film SLRs Vs film MF sooner than later and the current economic bust will help speed that up.

Regards,
Mike

Polaroid Swinger; Kodak Instamatic 126 Ricoh 500G; Canon FTb; Nikon F2AS; Nikon F3HP; Hasselblad 501CM; Pentax 67II, Nikon 990; Nikon D1x; Nikon D300; PhaseOne P65+ (in my dreams ;-)
 
...and they should also cdo comparitive revews of post processing SW.

Regards,
Mike

--

Polaroid Swinger; Kodak Instamatic 126 Ricoh 500G; Canon FTb; Nikon F2AS; Nikon F3HP; Hasselblad 501CM; Pentax 67II, Nikon 990; Nikon D1x; Nikon D300; PhaseOne P65+ (in my dreams ;-)
 
I think there is a convergence of markets. As DSLR reaches higher it
has certainly closed the gap between MF. Keep in mind a double in MP
only yields a 25% gain in resolution and in many cases this
resolution is redundant for many reproduction needs. Now the
argument that lenses are more expensive is not entirely true. In
order to take advantage of D3X high MP count you need the best lenses
Nikon can offer these typically cost in the range of $1400 and up.
Now if Nikon redesigns some of its primes and sells them reasonably I
for one would be very pleased. Current crop of primes I have do not
compare to Nikon's newest lenses.
$1400 is pretty cheap compared to over $3,000 per lens for the premium quality MF glass, especially glass that syncs fast with strobes. Nikon is a business, and the reason why we haven't seen new primes pop up in the past is because there isn't a big market for them compared to those wanting quality zooms (which arguably, today, are (practically speaking) optically on par with the primes and offer more versatility to most photographers, the prime of course offering a wider aperture.

I too wish Nikon would produce a 50 and 85mm f/1.2 that was really sharp by f/2. I am however cognizant that the mass of photographers don't need such, and Nikon as a business does better producing what is needed/wanted the most.

Here's the deal. A photographer will realistically spend less than $2,000 per premium lens (prime or zoom) under 200mm with Nikon or Canon. With a MF system, a photographer can realistically plan on spending over $3,000 per top of the line glass and find it grossly expensive on the wide and telephoto lenses.
Where MF beats Nikon and Canon IMHO is long term investment. I am
unsure how much more pixels they can pack into the format of 35mm.
However MF can continue to up the MP for sometime. Now do I really
need all that information. So if I were to make the investment in MF
now and spend the additional $6000 or so I could spread that out over
a longer period of time then I could with a D3X perhaps.
I'm not so sure I agree here, the MF body that you invest in today, is (like dslr) old news a year and a half from now, as better comes to market. Digital photography is still changing too rapidly to consider a dslr or digital back, an 'investment'.

To me the camera/lens is just a tool until I truly need something better, or until the work of others in the same category that I'm competing, is of a much better quality by virtue of their camera and glass alone. That is a real world signal that it's time to upgrade, not because x-amount of new cameras have come to market at any given time.
My current buying cycle for DSLR is about 18 months not very long for an
equipment investment of several thousand dollars or $8000 for the
D3X. That is why I choose not to buy the D3X it is just to much
money for something that will last less then two years.
This is where you have me really confused and curious. Why would you be purchasing (other than for tax and accounting purposes) a new body every 18 months. To me that just doesn't make sense. Let's pretend that you had purchased a Canon 1ds3 18 months ago, would you find the camera out-of-date today? What would be the benefit in your photography to switch to another dslr? Practically and in all likelihood, absolutely no benefit exists (I can understand a tax/accounting/depreciation aspect of doing business but that's another ball of wax all together.)

Those who were shooting portraits, or still life, with a D2x or 5D back in 2005 (over three years ago when those cameras came out) just now, within the last 60 days, have a dslr alternative. The only alternative available prior to the new high res camera bodies from Nikon & Canon, was the 21mp 1ds3.

MF is great, but if you purchased a MF back several years ago, it doesn't measure up to the IQ nor resolution that is available today.
  • My point is, it doesn't make sense to upgrade, unless you need it to remain competitive in your respective market, or it provides you with a significant increase in productivity, ease-of-use, etc.
The burning question in my mind, is exactly what cameras have you been upgrading from every 1.5 years ?????? .. and what do you shoot? Other than taking advantage of the new FF bodies such as the 1ds3, why were you switching? What was the advantage gained each time you 'upgraded'?

Think of it this way.. A girl at college needs a computer only to type her english assignments on. She doesn't surf the web, download music, etc.. She just needs a computer to take to the library, type her paper as she looks through various books while researching her topic, and later to organize and print out the final paper.

Now, her uncle gives her a 4-year-old notebook computer with 512meg of ram, running at 2ghz is far adequate for what she needs the computer for. There is no reason for her to 'upgrade' if all she's doing is running Microsoft Office 2002, and Windows XP Pro.

... now when she gets to grad school and is required to do loads of research online, surf the web with 5 windows open at a time, while at the same time running an interactive anatomy/physiology program with heavy graphics, and all the while has music playing in the background from her iTunes collection.... then it's time for a serious upgrade ;)

If you've been shooting with a 21mp Canon dslr, even today, there is little (if any) reason to purchase the newer dslrs that have come to market- doesn't make business sense (aside from tax/accounting write off). Generally speaking, the most sensible upgrade path would be to a 31mp or higher MF back.

Just my humble logic

You've me curious about your frequency in upgrading :)
--
Enjoy the Day

Paul Guba New Jersey Photographer
http://www.gubavision.com
You and your family have a very happy holiday!!
--
Teila K. Day
 
I totally agree with the post where D3 will be used for most shots. For high IQ shots use MF as the gap between them narrows. The Rollei Hy6 / Sinar Hy6 / Leaf Afi is a very interesting system to look at.
 
Once the big sensor, high grade Phase 1 backs drop into the sub 10K
range, why in the world would anyone NOT want such a high-quality
modular system where neither the lenses nor the bodies need to be
replaced; then you can have it both ways - a real nice D700/D3 on the
small/low light portable end and a HQ MF on the high end.
Sure, but the gap between 39MP and 25MP is not as big as this comparison is suggesting.

A 3 images stitch from a d3x will outperform a P45+ most of the time.

Cheers,
Bernard
 

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