Tech Tips by Chuck Westfall

Interesting article on the net by Chuck Westfall touches on the 5D Mark II and its comparison vs the 1Ds Mark III.

Worth a read - enjoy!
http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0810/tech-tips.html

after all those gibberish claims about 50D being 1 stop better than the camera it replaces.

--------------------------------
A View through my Lens
thw.smugmug.com

and has to be careful with every word. If you read between the lines you can see why the 5D specs were held where they were. Canon really wants to separate the 1D models from the 5D models. You are talking big bucks that they don't want to lose. Improving the AF for example would take a big chunk out of the 1D sales. They aren't about to let that happen. Now maybe if Nikon prices drop low enough......

Rich

I absolutely believe they are artificially manipulating the prices. But, I do not think they will continue to be able to do so with Nikon getting back into the game. There's going to be very strong price pressure on Canon in the next year once Nikon gets their 21+MP camera out.

By the way, when I say artificially manipulating prices, I do know they can keep features in and out of models to keep the lines distant from each other. But the differences between the 5D MKII and the 1Ds don't add up to an additional $5300.00 US. Basically all of the things he mentioned were available in their $1800 EOS 1V film camera. It's just that they're the only game in town right now with a Pro Body FF 20MP+ camera and they're milking the audience for every cent they can get. Good for them. But, people ought to remember that in the future.

RichW said:

and has to be careful with every word. If you read between the lines
you can see why the 5D specs were held where they were. Canon really
wants to separate the 1D models from the 5D models. You are talking
big bucks that they don't want to lose. Improving the AF for example
would take a big chunk out of the 1D sales. They aren't about to let
that happen. Now maybe if Nikon prices drop low enough......

Rich

Click to expand...

... about penalizing Canon for making all of the money that it can. I do. I hope that you do. When there is no other game, what are you comparing the prices to? The only "market manipulation" I've seen is by the US Gov't, and we are now seeing the "benefits".
KP

--



http://www.ahomls.com/photo.htm
http://www.phillipsphotographer.com
Voted Best of the City 2004 by Cincinnati Magazine
I don't believe in fate, but I do believe in f/8!

'The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it.', H. L. Mencken

How about the fact that you can now get the same 21.1MP chip (in fact, a claimed superior version of it) in a $2700 camera. Nikon offers equivalent, if not better, AF performance and weather-resistance, as well as more features in a $4500 full frame camera. Sony is offering more pixels and more features in a full frame camera for $3000. In all of these instances, there is nothing the 1DsIII offers that can consistently account for the additional expense. Every other Canon DSLR in every other segment has seen its cost drop from one generation to the next, with a commensurate level of functional and CMOS improvements, yet the 1D-series pricing has, until recently, remained fixed. Why? Because there was viable competition for the lower models, and none for the 1D-series. If Nikon's high-MP camera brings to bear all the feature content and weather-resistance of the D3, perhaps even in a more compact body, assuming the 1DsIII remains current in Canon's lineup, you will see its selling price tumble because there is so much fat in the pricing that Canon can easily drop the price and still make a profit.

Yes, Canon has for 3 generations now, enjoyed sustained windfall profits from the 1D-class cameras while offering little in the way of improvement to justify those prices. I don't begrudge them that, mind you, but I am cognizant of the fact and have refused to pony up for Canon's fat, flabby flagships, instead investing in competitors that offer more bang for the buck at the high end of the market.

I started with Canon during its darkest period, between the death of the FD mount and the birth of the EOS system, and it was an altogether different company back then. I used to feel every cent I spent on Canon gear was money well spent: the bodies were well-built (compared to the competition), the feature set was impressive, the UI was head-and-shoulders better than the competition, and the technological innovations were thoughtfully implemented and reliably contributed to improvements in the shooting experience. Today's Canon seems far less spirited and aggressive. Canon today reminds me of nothing more than the arrogant, lethargic marketing-driven company that Nikon had become when Canon was hungry and inventive enough to cut ties to its past and launch a brand new system that was unequivocally superior to anything on the market, and so forward-thinking that it took the competition the better part of two decades to catch up.

I'm still hoping for a turn-around for Canon, but honestly it looks like it may be some other company's turn to lead.

Ken Phillips said:

... about penalizing Canon for making all of the money that it can. I
do. I hope that you do. When there is no other game, what are you
comparing the prices to? The only "market manipulation" I've seen is
by the US Gov't, and we are now seeing the "benefits".
KP

--



http://www.ahomls.com/photo.htm
http://www.phillipsphotographer.com
Voted Best of the City 2004 by Cincinnati Magazine
I don't believe in fate, but I do believe in f/8!
'The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to
rule it.', H. L. Mencken

Click to expand...

--
- -
Kabe Luna

http://www.garlandcary.com

Kabe Luna said:

I'm still hoping for a turn-around for Canon, but honestly it looks
like it may be some other company's turn to lead.

Click to expand...

--------------------------------
A View through my Lens
thw.smugmug.com

I appreciate your input to what I said, but I never said that Canon was manipulating the market. I'm saying the price differential between the 5DMKII and the 1Ds MKIII is artificial and not justified by reasonable margins and production costs. You're absolutely right, when there's no other game in town, they can charge whatever they want. You could say the same thing about the guy selling water for $40 a gallon during a drought.

That's why I've mentioned in a couple of posts that it's good that Nikon's back in the game to put pressure on Canon's prices. I'll vote with my dollar in the future and I'll remember who broke it off in the consumer just because they were the only game in town. All things being equal (features, etc.) I'll go with the one that didn't try to kill me on price just because they could. That's not penalizing a company. That's a free market.

Like the old saying goes, you can fleece a sheep many times, but you can only skin it once.

Ken Phillips said:

... about penalizing Canon for making all of the money that it can. I
do. I hope that you do. When there is no other game, what are you
comparing the prices to? The only "market manipulation" I've seen is
by the US Gov't, and we are now seeing the "benefits".
KP

--



http://www.ahomls.com/photo.htm
http://www.phillipsphotographer.com
Voted Best of the City 2004 by Cincinnati Magazine
I don't believe in fate, but I do believe in f/8!
'The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to
rule it.', H. L. Mencken

Click to expand...

I wholeheartedly agree. Do you still remember the T 90? What a wonderful camera. Suddenly it had it all - except autofocus, because Canon had to cope with Minoltas new AF and the new Eos Series was not ready yet. Never again have they built such an elegant camera.
Shall we hope that they get in dire straits to deliver again?

...it'll take the kind of spiral Nikon endured for Canon to regain its balance. Oh well...
--
- -
Kabe Luna

http://www.garlandcary.com

RobertSigmund said:

I wholeheartedly agree. Do you still remember the T 90? What a
wonderful camera. Suddenly it had it all - except autofocus, because
Canon had to cope with Minoltas new AF and the new Eos Series was not
ready yet. Never again have they built such an elegant camera.
Shall we hope that they get in dire straits to deliver again?

Click to expand...

I would have said that about the A1 and the last Incarnation of the F1. Beautifully primitive and basic outstnading photograph taking machines. The T90 never quite connected with me. The plastic body and digital display just seemed yuck in many ways. Give me a good incident light meter and a F1. Photography doesn't need to be any more complicated than that (used to be that way anyway). Mastering the concepts of exposure and previsualization are gone.

sort of annoying that none of those extras remotely costs $5000 extra
and many of them could've been stuck in the 5dmkii for maybe $200 total more.
and i'm suspicious that one of them might even been intentionally crippled.

what will happen if nikon comes out with more MP soon? canon may be sorry once again.

not that the 5dmkii is not exciting but it also frustrating too and canon definitely likes to squeeze their customers as much as they can in annoying ways.

as it is not sure how many 1ds sales they are preserving and they could end up spanked soon enough for their 1 series protections.

otoh, with the worse economy, perhaps every $200 in parts saved helps more than hurts.

exactly, i mean the difference between the pricing is more than an entire 1dmkii so its obviously ridiculous and their protect 1 series at all ends is getting more annoyign by the year, especially if you hate large bodies and wouldnt prefer the 1 series even if you had $100,000,000 a year.

Garrett Lucas said:

By the way, when I say artificially manipulating prices, I do know
they can keep features in and out of models to keep the lines distant
from each other. But the differences between the 5D MKII and the 1Ds
don't add up to an additional $5300.00 US. Basically all of the
things he mentioned were available in their $1800 EOS 1V film camera.
It's just that they're the only game in town right now with a Pro
Body FF 20MP+ camera and they're milking the audience for every cent
they can get. Good for them. But, people ought to remember that in
the future.

RichW said:

and has to be careful with every word. If you read between the lines
you can see why the 5D specs were held where they were. Canon really
wants to separate the 1D models from the 5D models. You are talking
big bucks that they don't want to lose. Improving the AF for example
would take a big chunk out of the 1D sales. They aren't about to let
that happen. Now maybe if Nikon prices drop low enough......

Rich

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

sad but seems to be true.

Kabe Luna said:

Yes, Canon has for 3 generations now, enjoyed sustained windfall
profits from the 1D-class cameras while offering little in the way of
improvement to justify those prices. I don't begrudge them that, mind
you, but I am cognizant of the fact and have refused to pony up for
Canon's fat, flabby flagships, instead investing in competitors that
offer more bang for the buck at the high end of the market.

I started with Canon during its darkest period, between the death of
the FD mount and the birth of the EOS system, and it was an
altogether different company back then. I used to feel every cent I
spent on Canon gear was money well spent: the bodies were well-built
(compared to the competition), the feature set was impressive, the UI
was head-and-shoulders better than the competition, and the
technological innovations were thoughtfully implemented and reliably
contributed to improvements in the shooting experience. Today's Canon
seems far less spirited and aggressive. Canon today reminds me of
nothing more than the arrogant, lethargic marketing-driven company
that Nikon had become when Canon was hungry and inventive enough to
cut ties to its past and launch a brand new system that was
unequivocally superior to anything on the market, and so
forward-thinking that it took the competition the better part of two
decades to catch up.

I'm still hoping for a turn-around for Canon, but honestly it looks
like it may be some other company's turn to lead.

Ken Phillips said:

... about penalizing Canon for making all of the money that it can. I
do. I hope that you do. When there is no other game, what are you
comparing the prices to? The only "market manipulation" I've seen is
by the US Gov't, and we are now seeing the "benefits".
KP

--



http://www.ahomls.com/photo.htm
http://www.phillipsphotographer.com
Voted Best of the City 2004 by Cincinnati Magazine
I don't believe in fate, but I do believe in f/8!
'The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to
rule it.', H. L. Mencken

Click to expand...

--
- -
Kabe Luna

http://www.garlandcary.com

Click to expand...

RichW said:

and has to be careful with every word. If you read between the lines
you can see why the 5D specs were held where they were. Canon really
wants to separate the 1D models from the 5D models. You are talking
big bucks that they don't want to lose.

Click to expand...

Spoken like a real investment banker (ancient UK rhyming slang). ;-)

Better lose those "big bucks" to another Canon body than to lose that and their entire lens replacement bucks to Nikon, which is where the pro line has been haemorhaging to since the 1DIII fiasco - and will continue to do so.

Even if they aren't ready to bring out a 1DIV, adding some pro features to the 5DII could have stemmed that flow with pro's asking what new extras they could expect from the next 1Dx if Canon were passing such features down the line.

--
Its RKM

bronxbombers said:

sort of annoying that none of those extras remotely costs $5000 extra
and many of them could've been stuck in the 5dmkii for maybe $200
total more.

Click to expand...

Even a passing knowledge of 1D3/1Ds3 would prevent you from writing the above. Do yourself a favor and rent a 1Ds3 for a week or so... (Yeah, I shoot with 1D3 and 1Ds3 and have had a 5D2 for an hour or so for testing.)

RobertSigmund said:

I wholeheartedly agree. Do you still remember the T 90? What a
wonderful camera. Suddenly it had it all - except autofocus, because
Canon had to cope with Minoltas new AF and the new Eos Series was not
ready yet. Never again have they built such an elegant camera.
Shall we hope that they get in dire straits to deliver again?

Click to expand...

I have a whole album of T90 pics, and still have the camera itself. And some AE-1's. These cameras made me a faithful Canon customer, and the images from my 5D are no less exciting, and way cheaper to produce over time. Canon rocks, for the advanced enthusiast anyway.

(Perhaps you're thinking of one of the lesser, Cosina-sourced Canon T-models?) You won't find a more robustly built SLR from any maker from any era than the T90. Of course, it was the blueprint for the EOS models to follow, a design paradigm that is only now at risk of being obsoleted.

I, too, am a fan of classically designed manual SLRs...so much so that I wish someone would make an affordable one in one of the popular mounts with a top-notch sensor. But there is no denying how well the EOS cameras fit the hand and present essential controls for fast, fluid shooting.

f64manray said:

RobertSigmund said:

I wholeheartedly agree. Do you still remember the T 90? What a
wonderful camera. Suddenly it had it all - except autofocus, because
Canon had to cope with Minoltas new AF and the new Eos Series was not
ready yet. Never again have they built such an elegant camera.
Shall we hope that they get in dire straits to deliver again?

Click to expand...

I would have said that about the A1 and the last Incarnation of the
F1. Beautifully primitive and basic outstnading photograph taking
machines. The T90 never quite connected with me. The plastic body
and digital display just seemed yuck in many ways. Give me a good
incident light meter and a F1. Photography doesn't need to be any
more complicated than that (used to be that way anyway). Mastering
the concepts of exposure and previsualization are gone.

Click to expand...

--
- -
Kabe Luna

http://www.garlandcary.com

Badbatz said:

bronxbombers said:

sort of annoying that none of those extras remotely costs $5000 extra
and many of them could've been stuck in the 5dmkii for maybe $200
total more.

Click to expand...

Even a passing knowledge of 1D3/1Ds3 would prevent you from writing
the above. Do yourself a favor and rent a 1Ds3 for a week or so...
(Yeah, I shoot with 1D3 and 1Ds3 and have had a 5D2 for an hour or so
for testing.)

Click to expand...

what does this have to do with the COST of the shutter/mirror box, etc.?

i'm not at all saying those features are not nice, and of course the less mirror black out and less shutter lag and so on are nice, is urely wish the 5d mkii was better in those regards (instead it is even worse than an ancient 20Ds specs).

I am saying there is no way in the world they should cost $5000 when complete film cameras have had them and they only cost $1800 total and the 1dmkiii has them (ok aps-h shutter box is a little bit less expensive, but come on) and that entire camera costs less than the 5dmkii to 1ds price difference, i mean the entire D700 including sensor costs less than that price difference and you say the shutter/mirror and af cpu cost $4000-$5000! the cpu for af probably costs them $10. the af sensor might cost more, but nothing remotely near these premiums.

at the very least they could have put in a higher performance shutter/mirror for not THAT much more and even tossing in the 1dmkii AF cpu and sensor would not cost anything that incredible.

Badbatz said:

Even a passing knowledge of 1D3/1Ds3 would prevent you from writing
the above. Do yourself a favor and rent a 1Ds3 for a week or so...
(Yeah, I shoot with 1D3 and 1Ds3 and have had a 5D2 for an hour or so
for testing.)

Click to expand...

I have a 1DM3 and various other Canon DSLRs including a 5D. I both agree and disagree. Yes the performance of the 1D series is a large step above the 5D as well as the 5DM2 but some of the features could be "trickled down" for little to no additional cost. Features like 5, 7 and 9 auto-bracketing and multiple spot meter readings are just firmware.

I think there is just a lot of frustration out there from photographers hoping that Canon would really wow the competition but it didn't happen. I checked with the Nikon world and found that their rumor mill is really heating up about the D3x being announced pretty soon. I decided to pick up a 50D now and wait and see on the 5DM2 and possible 1DM4/1DsM4. If the D3x is indeed a 24MP upgrade to the D3 and comes in at $5400 or less, I don't see how Canon can keep the price of the 1D/1Ds cameras so high. I'd hate to lay out the $2700 for a 5DM2 before the end of the year and then Canon announce a higher spec'd 3D or lower priced 1D 18-21MP camera at PMA (Feb 09). I was ready to pay $3999 for a 3D if such a camera existed but nothing like that was announced.

Oh well...