Samsung - new camera line and lens mount - whither Hoya/Pentax?

Now that Hoya has publicly downsized expectations, Samsung is left finding a way to grow in digital cameras. Since Canon and Nikon dominate APS-C in DSLR'S, that leaves a competition, using new technology, against Olympus and Panasonic as the alternative - note their rationale for a lighter-weight system to meet marketing demands, within the article. This will create a niche of compact cameras with interchangeable lenses, slotted above the megazooms. There's a link describing this new type of camera at the bottom, below the article excerpts. They are providing a 14 MP APS-C sized sensor for it, and apparently their own lenses. These will be EVF cameras rather than DSLR's - details in the article.

You can either battle two companies owning 80+ precent of the market, or grow your own market segment. This tells me that Samsung is unlikely to get into FF DSLR's, as the volume won't be there for them. There's also no indication of a newer DSLR in this article - rather; the opposite.

Check the current DPREVIEW stats - the total clicks (on a holiday weekend) have jumped from about 1.2 million to 1.7 million, and over a THIRD of those are for the 50D and D90. This sucks all the oxygen out of the APS-C sector insofar as Pentax and other competition; and Hoya has already discussed downsizing in cameras and moving towards additional lens production.

=========================================

http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/news/New_interchangeable_lens_system_compact_digital_camera_system_on_the_way_news_266661.html

Samsung reveals new Hybrid digital camera system to rival Micro Four Thirds - New interchangeable lens system compact digital camera system on the way

Global giant Samsung is set to introduce a new interchangeable lens 'Hybrid' digital camera system in Spring 2010, in a move aimed at propelling the company to the top of world's digital camera sales. Speaking exclusively to Amateur Photographer at the IFA show in Berlin, Samsung Techwin Executive Vice President Byung Woo Lee (pictured above with UK camera director Rob King) says the first model in the as-yet-unnamed system will carry the company's own 14 million-pixel APS-C sized CMOS sensor and a new lens mount. 'Many people find DSLR cameras too heavy and big to carry,' Lee explained, 'so Samsung will introduce a new hybrid system that will be small and light like a bridge type camera, but with interchangeable Samsung-made lenses.'

News of Samsung's plans are sure to be met with interest by Four Thirds system members Olympus and Panasonic, coming only three weeks after the announcement of the Micro Four Thirds system which is based on similar principles. Keen to emphasis that Samsung's system is unrelated to Micro Four Thirds, Lee told AP that the company has been working on this project for some time, and is already producing prototype lenses.

Like Micro Four Thirds, Samsung's hybrid system will use electronic viewfinders (EVF) and a compact camera style live rear LCD screen for framing. The focusing system will use a video type automatic process, and lenses will be smaller than the company's current GX series optics. 'We have extensive experience in lens manufacturing from other areas of Samsung's business, as well as from our compact camera ranges, and we have been manufacturing camera bodies since the 1970's, so these will not be new areas for us to deal with.' Lee explains. 'Although we want to make the new system affordable, we are concentrating on achieving professional quality with this system. The most important point is that this is very successful in the market. A difference between Samsung's system and Micro Four Thirds will be that Samsung will have a much bigger sensor.'

Lee admitted that competing with Nikon and Canon in the DSLR market is extremely challenging, and mentioned that all other manufacturers are finding it difficult to make an impression. 'Samsung is still in the early stages of its DSLR project and in this field we have a long way to go to gain a good market share. With the hybrid system we will create a new camera segment which we will be able to dominate.' Although many details are still to be decided on Lee predicts that the new system will be ready for sale in the spring of 2010.

The 'Hybrid' system will run alongside the current GX DSLR series.

http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/news/Olympus_and_Panasonic_to_develop_Micro_Four_Thirds_System_cameras_news_264935.html

tweedle said:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=29136792

Click to expand...

=============

Doesn't "dum" follow "tweedle"?

... But not discussing the business aspects at all, particularly in relation to the future of the Pentax brand (or what Hoya has left of it).

The business aspects as noted are critical - I see minimal investment by Samsung in the current Pentax DSLR lines, and less interest in co-marketing.

The other thread is 5 posts, and zero discussion. For Pentax, I see this Samsung announcement as the beginning of the end.

Hoya has already liquidated their camera manufacturing unit in Shanghai as part of efforts to staunch the bleeding. That Pentax unit supplied parts to Pentax plants in Philippines and Vietnam for Pentax digital SLR bodies and lenses.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=29136792
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=29137229
aaand
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=29135159

Nappe1 said:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=29136792
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=29137229
aaand
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=29135159

Click to expand...

============

... and near-zero discussion, in terms of the impact on Pentax, except mine. Is this a forum, or a bulletin board with push-pins? Perhaps a dozen total entries on 3 threads?

I guess no one cares about Pentax at this point; least of all Hoya, which is closing a Shanghai plant making parts for Pentax DSLR's.

--------------------------

The subsidiary company of Hoya, Pentax (Shanghai) Corp. in China, which manages the manufacturing of optical parts and the lenses, will be liquidated and closed down in March 2009. The company was established by Pentax in 2003, for the production of camera and optical parts. The initial production scale was set at 20,000 units per month, but profit has not been reached. The production changed to include the production of parts for digital cameras since approximately 2 years ago.

HOYA had explained in the August 2008 financial results meeting that they were reviewing the production facilities related to the digital camera business where the profits are unable to be met. In the future, they will continue to "rearrange" the production facilities at the Japanese home and to "re-group" and "re-gather" most of the digital camera production at the two plants in the Philippines and Vietnam."

Closing that plant could be a good thing. Especially if they were making the flash parts...... Anyways Hoya believes they can outsource a bunch of things...

Maybe Samsung will supply the parts. To early to tell what the outcome of all this is. It's not looking particularily great at this point though it's still a half empty/half full scenario.

The Samsung micro 4/3rds (or whatever) is something Pentax probably wouldn't do based on their experience w/ the modular 110. Too conservative....

--
360 minutes from the prime meridian. (-5375min, 3.55sec) 1093' above sea level.

'The exposure meter is calibrated to some clearly defined standards and the user needs to adjust his working method and his subject matter to these values. It does not help to suppose all kinds of assumptions that do not exist.'
Erwin Puts

philbarton said:

... But not discussing the business aspects at all, particularly in
relation to the future of the Pentax brand (or what Hoya has left of
it).

Click to expand...

Are you an insider? What do you know about the business aspects that we don't already know?

philbarton said:

The business aspects as noted are critical - I see minimal investment
by Samsung in the current Pentax DSLR lines, and less interest in
co-marketing.

Click to expand...

Please forward us next time when Samsung sends you a personal note on their new investments. I'm sure you must be getting some sweet info from their execs.

philbarton said:

The other thread is 5 posts, and zero discussion. For Pentax, I see
this Samsung announcement as the beginning of the end.

Click to expand...

Sounds like you have a vested interest in seeing them fold. Sony shareholder, maybe?

philbarton said:

Hoya has already liquidated their camera manufacturing unit in
Shanghai as part of efforts to staunch the bleeding. That Pentax
unit supplied parts to Pentax plants in Philippines and Vietnam for
Pentax digital SLR bodies and lenses.

Click to expand...

Big deal. Hoya lost the equivalent of 2 condo units in the quarters right after a major merger. In the same period, Nikon and Canon sales dropped from 10% to 20%, as well.

Resource reallocation is an essential part of most merger even half the size as the Hoya-Pentax merger.

Phil makes a liviing by bashing pentax with misrepresentations.

He is either on the canon payroll or just derives pleasure from it.
--
Best regards
Nick

Ah, so Samsung will make their own lenses?
Instead of the lenses that Schneider makes for Samsung now?
Interresting.
Always interresting to listen to Samsung.

We all know of course that the Schneider-Kreuznach lenses are actually designed, developed and manufactured by Pentax, but Samsung denies it. This is how Samsung works. It doesn't matter how much Pentax is involved, everything is always by Samsung anyway. This is called marketing.

Samsung has not had an entry level DSLR since the GX-1S (Pentax *ist DS2) and GX-1L (Pentax *ist DL2) were discontinued. Samsung has clearly spent their money on a different idea.

Is it a coincidence that this idea is just like the prototype/design study that Pentax showed 2 years ago at Tokyo Photo Expo show? A K-mount DSLR without optical viewfinder, just a big screen on the back. And this study was showned two years ago. Nothing is new under the sun... So we know that Samsung and Pentax has a partnership in developing DSLR technologies, and we know that Pentax two years ago showed a prototype of a camera that fits right in with Samsung's description of this new and innovative system. For me it is only natural to see a connection here between Pentax old prototype and Samsungs "new" idea.

But I doubt that Pentax will actually release a sort of hybrid-camera under their own name. It is much better to have Samsung spend marketing money on it.
Samsung will of course continue with it's larger DSLR serie.

What Samsung needs, is their own DSLR's.

Buying DSLR's from Pentax and sticking a label "Samsung" over the Pentax label, is not how one will win the DSLR battle. It is very positive that Samsung now shows that they will differentiate themselves more from Pentax.

The basic technologies can still be the same - sensor, imaging processing, autofocus, light measurement, new and innovative exposure modes etc. But the actual cameras does not have to be the same. They need to be different.
So the news are very positive, both for Samsung and for Pentax.

When Samsung and Pentax signed their partnership, the expectations from consumers and media was that Pentax and Samsung would market different cameras based upon similar technologies, not that they would try to sell the same camera under different names. Finally, Samsung and Pentax seems now be moving towards this situation.

--
Take care
R
http://www.flickr.com/photos/raphaelmabo

Phil

Phil

It is one thing to take this news and spectuilate on the future of Pentax. It is another to misreprsent things and and go out of your way to attack.

What puzzels me more is your reason for doing this. Perhaps you would like to have only C and N providing dSLRs. If so, imagine how competitive and responsive the market will be. THat world would have likely seen the following:

• C and N would have left IS on premium glass. IS in lower cost lenses was a response to P, Oly and Sony in body IS.
• C would not have come out with a 15 Mpixel sensor in response to Samsung/Pentax k20D 14.6 Mpixel
• The latest Nikon movie mode is a extrapolation of the high brust rate FPS found on the Pentax K20D.
• Live view would not have been on SLRs at this stage if it were not pushed by Sony and OLY

Roland Mabo said:

Ah, so Samsung will make their own lenses?
Instead of the lenses that Schneider makes for Samsung now?
Interresting.
Always interresting to listen to Samsung.

Click to expand...

Roland Mabo said:

Is it a coincidence that this idea is just like the prototype/design
study that Pentax showed 2 years ago at Tokyo Photo Expo show? A
K-mount DSLR without optical viewfinder, just a big screen on the
back. And this study was showned two years ago. Nothing is new under
the sun... So we know that Samsung and Pentax has a partnership in
developing DSLR technologies, and we know that Pentax two years ago
showed a prototype of a camera that fits right in with Samsung's
description of this new and innovative system. For me it is only
natural to see a connection here between Pentax old prototype and
Samsungs "new" idea.

Click to expand...

Thanks, I had forgotten about that one

--
kind regards
Sune



“The new 14.6 MP Samsung/Pentax sensor is for real. Noise is admirably low'
K20D AnandTech Review

and that is image quality. Their NV series showed a huge amount of promise...great bodies, great looks, 'revolutionary' LCD, but the most important element, image quality, was/is lacking. As huge a company as they are, they are and always will be an also ran in the camera market.

philbarton said:

Now that Hoya has publicly downsized expectations, Samsung is left
finding a way to grow in digital cameras. Since Canon and Nikon
dominate APS-C in DSLR'S, that leaves a competition, using new
technology, against Olympus and Panasonic as the alternative - note
their rationale for a lighter-weight system to meet marketing
demands, within the article. This will create a niche of compact
cameras with interchangeable lenses, slotted above the megazooms.
There's a link describing this new type of camera at the bottom,
below the article excerpts. They are providing a 14 MP APS-C sized
sensor for it, and apparently their own lenses. These will be EVF
cameras rather than DSLR's - details in the article.

Click to expand...

Yes, Samsung is announcing a micro 4/3 competitor with a new mount.

philbarton said:

You can either battle two companies owning 80+ precent of the market,
or grow your own market segment. This tells me that Samsung is
unlikely to get into FF DSLR's, as the volume won't be there for
them. There's also no indication of a newer DSLR in this article -
rather; the opposite.

Click to expand...

I read it differently. The new format has nothing to do with DSLR cameras, so it has no impact on Samsung's plan for a full frame. In fact, the new micro 4/3 lens mount makes it even more likely that Samsung will declare independence from the Pentax K mount. Samsung can conceivably invent a new 35mm lens mount that is compatible with its own EVF lens mount, so that there is interchangeability between them, at least one way compatibility.

I read the recent interview of Pentax at PHotokina, and Pentax seems to blame the Samsung sensor in the K20D for slow sales. Personally I think it is the price of the K20D which was to blame, but such apparent friction may mean that the days of the Pentax-Samsung partnership may be numbered. Samsung may break from the partnership and start making DSLR cameras on its own, both APS-C and full frame. Therefore we may have a full frame Samsung with a new mount but no full frame K mount Pentax in the near future. It will be interesting to see Samsung perhaps surpass Pentax in DSLR sales. That would be embarrassing to Pentax but it won't be anything new. Samsung point and shoot digicam sales have surpassed that of Pentax despite being a relative new comer to digital cameras.

Roland Mabo said:

Ah, so Samsung will make their own lenses?
Instead of the lenses that Schneider makes for Samsung now?
Interresting.
Always interresting to listen to Samsung.

We all know of course that the Schneider-Kreuznach lenses are
actually designed, developed and manufactured by Pentax, but Samsung
denies it. This is how Samsung works. It doesn't matter how much
Pentax is involved, everything is always by Samsung anyway. This is
called marketing.

Click to expand...

Would Pentax admit to making lenses for Schneider? Would Pentax admits to rebadging the Cosina made 100mm f/3.5 lens as the Pentax FA? Yes, it is marketing. It is well known that the brand name on a piece of photo equipment may not accurately describe who designed or made it. Rebadging is a very common practice.

Roland Mabo said:

Samsung has not had an entry level DSLR since the GX-1S (Pentax *ist
DS2) and GX-1L (Pentax *ist DL2) were discontinued. Samsung has
clearly spent their money on a different idea.

Click to expand...

It was bad that Pentax discontinued the *ist DS2 abruptly. All those cameras were rebadged as Samsung GX-1S cameras. At one point, Pentax had no mid level camera to sell, only the *ist D and the DL.

Roland Mabo said:

Is it a coincidence that this idea is just like the prototype/design
study that Pentax showed 2 years ago at Tokyo Photo Expo show? A
K-mount DSLR without optical viewfinder, just a big screen on the
back. And this study was showned two years ago.

Click to expand...

Yes I remember that one. The fact is that Pentax never worked on that concept. Apparently someone from Olympus looked at the prototype and had a revelation about marketing such a camera.

Roland Mabo said:

Nothing is new under
the sun...

Click to expand...

We know that the Japanese camera makers copy each other's best features all the time. Sometimes they copy warts instead of useful features. For example, Canon AE-1 had a PC terminal located on the front of the top cover of the camera. Most people do not use this terminal and losing the cover on this terminal makes the camera look ugly. Yet many camera makers slavishly copied this awkward and ungainly placement of the PC terminal simply because the AE-1 was a best seller. In fact, Canon is one of those who often refuses to implement features that are not invented in house, to the dismay of its own users who are still waiting for real mirror lock up. So, when one Japanese camer maker does not copy its competitors, it can be a bad thing.

Roland Mabo said:

So we know that Samsung and Pentax has a partnership in
developing DSLR technologies, and we know that Pentax two years ago
showed a prototype of a camera that fits right in with Samsung's
description of this new and innovative system. For me it is only
natural to see a connection here between Pentax old prototype and
Samsungs "new" idea.

But I doubt that Pentax will actually release a sort of hybrid-camera
under their own name. It is much better to have Samsung spend
marketing money on it.
Samsung will of course continue with it's larger DSLR serie.

What Samsung needs, is their own DSLR's.

Click to expand...

Probably. Samsung announced a lower price than Pentax for its version of the K20D last year, and had to correct the price to match Pentax's. Samsung is ready, willing and able to sell its goods at lower prices to gain market share without dumping of course. Now, its partnership with Pentax has prevented Samsung from implementing that plan. So the logical thing to do is for Samsung to break free of Pentax and make new DSLR cameras with a new mount on its own. Otherwise it will be condemned to being a sub 1% market share DSLR brand for years to come.

Roland Mabo said:

Buying DSLR's from Pentax and sticking a label "Samsung" over the
Pentax label, is not how one will win the DSLR battle. It is very
positive that Samsung now shows that they will differentiate
themselves more from Pentax.

Click to expand...

I predict a break up of the partnership because Samsung is constrained by its partnership with Pentax. Tokina partners with Pentax on the design of some lenses, but Tokina sells its lenses for less money than Pentax sells the equivalent lenses. Tokina is thriving under the agreement, but Samsung is not because Samsung cannot set its own prices.

Roland Mabo said:

The basic technologies can still be the same - sensor, imaging
processing, autofocus, light measurement, new and innovative exposure
modes etc. But the actual cameras does not have to be the same. They
need to be different.
So the news are very positive, both for Samsung and for Pentax.

When Samsung and Pentax signed their partnership, the expectations
from consumers and media was that Pentax and Samsung would market
different cameras based upon similar technologies, not that they
would try to sell the same camera under different names. Finally,
Samsung and Pentax seems now be moving towards this situation.

Click to expand...

I believe that the days of the partnership may be numbered. In a recent interview of Pentax management at Photokina, Pentax says its next camera may not have a Samsung sensor, but that it will have the best sensor available. That could mean a fissure in the Pentax-Samsung partnership that may end up seeing them going their separate ways. At about the same time, Pentax is making noises that it may not be making a full frame DSLR. That is more evidence of a possible break with Samsung. We may therefore see a full frame Samsung DSLR but none from Pentax.

Anastigmat said:

Samsung announced a lower price than Pentax for its
version of the K20D last year, and had to correct the price to match
Pentax's. Samsung is ready, willing and able to sell its goods at
lower prices to gain market share without dumping of course. Now,
its partnership with Pentax has prevented Samsung from implementing
that plan.

Click to expand...

Probably.

Anastigmat said:

So the logical thing to do is for Samsung to break free
of Pentax and make new DSLR cameras with a new mount on its own.
Otherwise it will be condemned to being a sub 1% market share DSLR
brand for years to come.

Click to expand...

I tend to agree that the Pentax-Samsung relationship might be loosening, but I see other, more important reasons why this is happening.

First of all, Samsung and Pentax are two very different companies. And during the period of collaboration, differences might have become even greater. Pentax is trying to keep up momentum in only a rather limited part of the APS-segment - but they are not able to do even this. Again and again, Penytax have been late to the table - as recently seen with the new KM, some two years after Nikon D40 and Oly E400, nine months after Sony A900, six months after Canon 1000D.

Basically, Pentax is in deep trouble trying to find a way out of the current very weak position. There is noone to buy Pentax right now. Noone needs them. There is no real point for Hoya in taking further losses either. So what to do? Not easy at all and basically everything on Pentax' agenda these days is about cutting its losses short- to medium term.

Because of this, Pentax' position seems to be far, far away from Samsungs aggressive, determinant, llong term perspective.

In the last couple of years, Samsung needed Pentax to give them a presence in DSLRs while Samsung was making up its mind about a future inroad to system cameras, developing new (hybrid and other) systems for the future.

Now and in the future, however, Samsung don't really need Pentax as nothing more than a subcontractor on some level. Not even that, maybe.

Anastigmat said:

I believe that the days of the partnership may be numbered.

Click to expand...

Seems likely.

Anastigmat said:

In a recent interview of Pentax management at Photokina, Pentax says its
next camera may not have a Samsung sensor, but that it will have the
best sensor available. That could mean a fissure in the
Pentax-Samsung partnership that may end up seeing them going their
separate ways. At about the same time, Pentax is making noises that
it may not be making a full frame DSLR. That is more evidence of a
possible break with Samsung. We may therefore see a full frame
Samsung DSLR but none from Pentax.

Click to expand...

Good obervations. Goes to show that the two 'partners' are moving in different directions (if Pentax is moving at all, not so sure about that)

tweedle said:

Anastigmat said:

In a recent interview of Pentax management at Photokina, Pentax says its
next camera may not have a Samsung sensor, but that it will have the
best sensor available. That could mean a fissure in the
Pentax-Samsung partnership that may end up seeing them going their
separate ways. At about the same time, Pentax is making noises that
it may not be making a full frame DSLR. That is more evidence of a
possible break with Samsung. We may therefore see a full frame
Samsung DSLR but none from Pentax.

Click to expand...

Good obervations. Goes to show that the two 'partners' are moving in
different directions (if Pentax is moving at all, not so sure about
that)

Click to expand...

Hey?

Thats the same position Pentax stated at the start of the year so nothing new or changed there.

Pentax have always maintained they will keep their options open when it comes to sourcing sensors....it would also help having alternate sources of sensors when negotiating unit prices I'd think.

bazz.

--
Zooms? pfffft!

Anastigmat said:

Samsung point
and shoot digicam sales have surpassed that of Pentax despite being a
relative new comer to digital cameras.

Click to expand...

Not just Pentax either. In terms of total digital camera sales they sit third ahead of other laggards like Olympus and Nikon.

bazz.

--
Zooms? pfffft!

Why can Samsung not work together with Microfourthirds ? [nt]

charlesh said:

and that is image quality. Their NV series showed a huge amount of
promise...great bodies, great looks, 'revolutionary' LCD, but the
most important element, image quality, was/is lacking. As huge a
company as they are, they are and always will be an also ran in the
camera market.
--

Click to expand...

Have you used an NV 8 or NV 15? Yes, the reviews in US and Europe were bad but the IQ was at least as good as a G9. They do have the ability to produce exceptional IQ in a P&S camera. The issue is they have not figured out how to get a good review.

as IQ doesn't automatically equal great image quality. If 10 reviews say the final results are disappointing, how many readers are going to run out and buy the camera? I loved the sleek look of the NVs when first introduced and actually thought about getting one...until I read a few reviews, all disappointed in the image quality. I passed. Their marketing seemed to be great, seeing those sleek cameras in many magazines...why then did they get less than stellar reviews? Curious.