Hey Canon! ISO, ISO, ISO, ISO. ISO!

DaSigmaGuy said:

Well, that link did'nt work so here is another link:

Click to expand...

Well. the D300 is in another class from the D3/D700 sensor.

Also, with downsized images it is difficult to gauge noise because the method involved can boost/cut apparent noise by a few stops.

--
John

DaSigmaGuy said:

pso said:

I can actually live without the super high ISO's but wouldn't
complain about it...definitely would like a real ISO 100.

Click to expand...

The Sigma SD14 has ISO50 which AFAIAA is the same as a real ISO100.

Click to expand...

Take a grey step wedge and shoot it at +2 EC in both 50 and 100, and pull them back down in the conversion. If the 100 has more levels recorded, then the 50 doesn't have the headroom to say it is an uncompromised 50.

--
John

DaSigmaGuy said:

Its makes no difference with cameras that use Bayer sensors because
even RAW images from Bayer sensors have noise reduction added
in-camera...Thats how they make high ISO's usable!

Click to expand...

Only the Sony A700 uses "noise reduction" with the typical connotations. The so-called "NR" in Canon DSLRs and the D3 is a double-sampling that subtracts offsets in individual pixels. That is not the same thing as NR as it is commonly thought of; there is no loss of optical detail because of any filtering, quite the contrary; the detail is sharper with less noise.

--
John

Tim in upstate NY said:

...Can you make a filk about pixel density? I tried to come up with
something but my brain cell density isn't up to par.

Click to expand...

The "right song" to start with hasn't come to me yet.

So I'm just letting it rattle around in the back of my mind, while I do other things, something will hit me...

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

You know, you repeatedly insist on laying your goals on me, then telling me what I want. Stop that, and pay attention this time: I don't want narrow field photos. I shoot wide field. I like wide field. It's closer to what I can see; I relate to the images better. So telescopes are a bad deal. Magnification into an FOV of just a few degrees of sky isn't of interest to me. I also don't want tracking. It's either expensive, annoying, or both, and it certainly isn't of use outside astro-photography, which makes it even less interesting to me. I like to point and shoot. A tripod I can live with; it's of general use anyway, for wildlife, etc. Got that so far? That addresses most of what you had to say. When I describe what I want, I'm not trying to tell you what you want; this is what I want.

Secondly, you say that noise reduction always sacrifices detail. You're outright wrong on that one. Noise reduction using stacking does not sacrifice detail. All it does is produces an average of multiple shots. The more shots you use, the more the constant data (the actual subject matter) comes through, and the further down the noise drops. This process does not lose edges; on the contrary, it represents them as accurately as possible. It actually trades time (multiple exposures) for finer, less noisy detail. Look into stacking. It's interesting.

Third, most RAW files aren't processed for noise, though they may, depending on the camera, be processed for adjacent sensor offsets.

Joseph S Wisniewski said:

Tim in upstate NY said:

...Can you make a filk about pixel density? I tried to come up with
something but my brain cell density isn't up to par.

Click to expand...

The "right song" to start with hasn't come to me yet.

So I'm just letting it rattle around in the back of my mind, while I
do other things, something will hit me...

Click to expand...

.....Can't wait Joe. Should be good.

(With apologies) To the Beatles "All you need is love"
----------------------------------------------------------------

Well, well,well.
Well, well, well.
Well, well, well.

There's no sensor can work without a well.
All those photons caught just pell mell
Compare FF to C and argue endlessly
It's easy.

There's no photon that comes that can't be captured.
If with IR filters you're not enraptured.
The low pass filter is annoying - but you can remove it
It's easy.

All you need is money.
All you need is money.
All you need is money, honey.
Funds are all you need.

Well, well, well.
Well, well, well.
Well, well, well.

All you need is ISO.
All you need is ISO.
All you need is ISO
and lower noise helps too.

There's nothing that makes up for lots of pixels
Nothing satisfies the pixel peepers.
No pic you can see that isn't better with more PP
It's easy.

All you need is dots.
All you need is dots.
All you need is dots, dots.
Dots are all you need.

All you need is funds... (all together now)
All you need is ISO (everybody)
All you need is dots, dots. Dots are all you need.

fyngyrz, so glad to see you join in with this. This is the first time, as far as I know, that anyone other than me has posted any filk in 10 years of dpReview.

I has actually targeted two different Beatles songs for a filk on this subject...

Revolution

You say you want some resolution,
Well, you know
We all want to shoot the world.

Money (that's what I want)

Pixels don't get everything, it's true
But what they don't get, I can't used...

And some Ray Charles.

Georgia on my Mind

Pixels
Pixels
The whole day though.
dpReview put pixels on my mind
(chorus)
pixels on my mind

If you don't mind a suggestion or two...

I think that monosyllables work best in the refrains, and don't switch the key word form "money" to "funds".

x x x x x A
x x x x x A
x x x x x A A
A x x x x x

Like this

fyngyrz said:

All you need are funds.
All you need are funds.
All you need are funds, funds.
Funds are all you need.

Click to expand...

That maintains the original meter. L & M thought that the structure worked fine, who are we to argue...

I think I would have used "speed" in the second refrain, instead of "ISO". Again, maintain the meter with monosyllables.

fyngyrz said:

(With apologies) To the Beatles "All you need is love"
----------------------------------------------------------------

Well, well,well.
Well, well, well.
Well, well, well.

There's no sensor can work without a well.
All those photons caught just pell mell
Compare FF to C and argue endlessly
It's easy.

There's no photon that comes that can't be captured.
If with IR filters you're not enraptured.
The low pass filter is annoying - but you can remove it
It's easy.

All you need is money.
All you need is money.
All you need is money, honey.
Funds are all you need.

Well, well, well.
Well, well, well.
Well, well, well.

All you need is ISO.
All you need is ISO.
All you need is ISO
and lower noise helps too.

There's nothing that makes up for lots of pixels
Nothing satisfies the pixel peepers.
No pic you can see that isn't better with more PP
It's easy.

All you need is dots.
All you need is dots.
All you need is dots, dots.
Dots are all you need.

All you need is funds... (all together now)
All you need is ISO (everybody)
All you need is dots, dots. Dots are all you need.

Click to expand...

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

Tim in upstate NY said:

Joseph S Wisniewski said:

Tim in upstate NY said:

...Can you make a filk about pixel density? I tried to come up with
something but my brain cell density isn't up to par.

Click to expand...

The "right song" to start with hasn't come to me yet.

So I'm just letting it rattle around in the back of my mind, while I
do other things, something will hit me...

Click to expand...

.....Can't wait Joe. Should be good.

Click to expand...

Define "good". This one is just "wrong", on so many levels...

Pixels on my Mind (to the tune of "Georgia on my Mind")
With apologies to Ray Charles.

Georgia on my Mind

Pixels
Pixels
The whole day though.

And each new review,
Puts pixels on my mind.

(chorus)
pixels on my mind

Pixels
Pixels
The millions of you.

A number that I,
Can brag about, I find...

(chorus)
pixels on my mind

People say twelve meg's the key
For cameras like the D 3
But some point and shoots have more
Of what I really need...

I said pixels
Pixels
The whole day though.

And each new review,
Puts pixels on my mind.

(chorus)
pixels on my mind

Some experts say "density".
Others talk of "noise" to me.
Still in camera dreams I see,
The numbers lead to more...

Pixels
Pixels
The whole day though.

And each new review,
Puts pixels on my mind.

(chorus)
pixels on my mind

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

is not permissible to state 'iko iko' lyrics without the obligatory HEY NOW introduction.

pppps

--
Bryan
(pic stream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works ) ~

Comes naturally; grew up with it in the 50's and 60's in a household with a Hugo-winning SF author and an F&SF-specialized literary agent (both original Futurians); today I own the literary agency. I'm also a rock musician with blues and folk leanings. In my library, I've got many, many hours of reel-to-reel recordings of all manner of high end SF authors, editors, fans and so forth crowing filk in manifest disharmony at the Milford PA SFWA parties that they would no doubt cringe to hear. With all that, its kind of difficult to keep from lying out in front of the filk bus, as it were. I was very pleased and amused to see filk migrating into photography matters.

Regarding meter, The words I used go well enough with the music (I actually played the filk to make sure); the Beatles weren't in much of a toe-tapping mode at the time. Try it; I think you'll be agreeably surprised. For instance, "ISO" is very flowing, which helps -- the letters run into one another without requirement of breath or disjoint glottal stops; one simple exhale does it.

You have a good day; I look forward to more of the same.

My music studio:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=28285651

for more than you ever wanted to know about ISOs and how they are obtained, read the tree starting from my post here.

All of you guys listen up. I am a retired electronics engineer. You need to understand how a digital photosensor works, rather than just make a mental compaison to film and chemical development terms. There are two kinds of photosensor, Chage coupled Devices (CCD), and Complimentrtary Metal Oxide Silicon (CMOS). Both do the same thing. They act like small capacitors that build up a voltage charge when exposed to light. However, these voltages are very small. All electronic devices generate small levels of electrical noise. When you shoot in low light, the small luminance signal you develop, is contaminated by a random time variable internally generated noise signal. This makes the total voltage greater or weaker than the true luminance signal from the collected light photons. The adjacent pixel instead of having a similar value, has a considerably different value, owing to the independent noise it generates. These signals have to be amplified by a pre amplifier. The ISO setting actually set the gain of this preamplifier. CMOS sensors generate lower noise than CCDs. All professional grade cameras use them as well as the latest models of prosumer cameras, for this reason. This electrical noise looks exactly like silver grains of 35 mm film.

There are three ways to reduce the noise in low light:

1. Use a faster lens (larger aperture).

2. Buy a camera with a CMOS sensor (Nikon D700, D300, D3., Canon 400D, 450D, 1000D, or FF pro model) . Any CCD sensor camera today is obsolete for this reason.

3. Buy a camera with larger pixels. At equal pixel count, full frame sensors have larger pixels than smaller sensor sizes. However, for a given sensor size, pushing the pixel count higher trades resolution for lower sensitivity, similar to the effect of grain size of 35mm film. Consequently, the Canon 400D has better low light performance than the 450, although it does not quite have the resolution of the 450. Another thing to remember is that in order to benefit from 12 MP resolution, you have to have a superb lens. Zoom lenses are compromises. The lens test data in dprview really make this clear by showing the Nyquist limit line, which represents the limits of the camera used for the test.

Hopefully you can now make a cost effective choice in your next purchase.

N

linuxworks said:

is not permissible to state 'iko iko' lyrics without the obligatory
HEY NOW introduction.

pppps

Click to expand...

How about if we get everybody clapping out the intro?

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com