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Please help with swim team group photo

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DGSmith

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I've been taking pictures of my son's swim team at their meets and putting them online. They've asked me to take a group shot this year, and I've said I'll do it, but I've never done anything like that before. They know I'm not a pro, but I would like to do the best I can.

They are suggesting that the swim team (about 100 kids) be at the end of the pool to the left in this photo.



There's a two-story building to the right, just out of view, they suggest I take the picture from the roof. Here's a photo I took out a second story window in that building last year.



So if I do what they're suggesting I'd be up about 10 feet higher and possibly farther to the left. The reason I'm asking on this forum is that they want to do this between 4:30 and 5:00 pm, and they would be at the west end of the pool. (These photos were both taken in the morning.) I'm thinking the sun will be fairly high but behind them, if it's sunny. Of course they'll be looking up at the camera on the roof.

Any chance this will work out? I think they'd be open to putting the group somewhere else. I'd be open to renting something for lighting if I knew what that would be and could get it.

Here's what I have: Nikon D70, 18-70 kit lens, 50mm f/1.8, 60mm f/2.8 macro, 70-210 f/4-5.6, Tokina 12-24, SB-600 flash. I was thinking the 50mm might give the right field of view. I can take it up to that window and check.

Any help will be much appreciated!
--
David Smith
http://delawarewildflowers.org/
 
That is a tough one. I shot this group of 150 Boy Scouts, but I had stadium seating to get everyone lined up nicely and used three big strobes to light them up:



What you could, maybe do, is schedule the shoot for dusk and then put strobes on the roof and make the strobes the primary light source for the image. I would also "stack" the kids IN the pool, so you get the same type of layout as I did for the BSA picture. Otherwise, move it to some stadium seating somewhere and use some really big flashes. I used around 1800 w/s of light for the BSA image and I would have liked to have about 2400 w/s so that I could use f/8 rather then f/5.6.

--
Sam
http://photos.miltonstreet.com
 
it has nothing to do with techinque, but my cousin had a swim team photo taken that i thought was great. they all wore white shirts and ties and all got in the pool waist high, so all you could see was the shirt and tie.
 
Here's my first attempt from last year



I hope to stack them in more rows so I can fill the screen with them better this year. You can see last year I had them on the opposite side of the pool... this year I'm gonna bring them to the near side and see if that will work better.

Somebody recommeded using an alternate shape - have them form a fan shape or their logo somehow - but wth 75 kids in the water I don't think I could take that amount of chaos!

Show us what you come up with.

Doug.
 
I can't do anything about the scheduling. The only time all the kids will be together is for swim meets, and after the meet nobody (including me) wants to stick around. So before a meet is the only time to do it, which means 4:30 - 5:00 pm.

The more I think about it, the more I think I should just use whatever the available light is, bracket the exposure, and hope for the best. Even if I did manage to find some strobes to rent or borrow, I wouldn't know how to use them and I'd probably screw it up.
Sam Carleton said:
What you could, maybe do, is schedule the shoot for dusk and then put
strobes on the roof and make the strobes the primary light source for
the image. I would also "stack" the kids IN the pool, so you get the
same type of layout as I did for the BSA picture. Otherwise, move it
to some stadium seating somewhere and use some really big flashes. I
used around 1800 w/s of light for the BSA image and I would have
liked to have about 2400 w/s so that I could use f/8 rather then
f/5.6.

--
Sam
http://photos.miltonstreet.com
Click to expand...
--
David Smith
http://delawarewildflowers.org/
 
That looks good! They're proposing that they be at the deep end, so nobody would be standing in the water. Maybe they could go on the side of the pool with the glass wall behind them.
dhowell said:
Here's my first attempt from last year



I hope to stack them in more rows so I can fill the screen with them
better this year. You can see last year I had them on the opposite
side of the pool... this year I'm gonna bring them to the near side
and see if that will work better.

Somebody recommeded using an alternate shape - have them form a fan
shape or their logo somehow - but wth 75 kids in the water I don't
think I could take that amount of chaos!

Show us what you come up with.

Doug.
Click to expand...
--
David Smith
http://delawarewildflowers.org/
 
With a glass wall behind them... you have to deal with reflection and whatever it may do to your light and light metering. Unless you have experience, may I suggest avoiding it as a backdrop.
 
DGSmith said:
Click to expand...
David,

I really don't mean to be critical, but I would not be happy with that type of lighting for a group shot. I would highly recommend taking one or two someones with you to be placed where the team is going to be placed and have them looking at you. Then play with the exposure and see what comes of it.

What part of the world are you in? You never know, there might just be someone on this forum in your area that has some lights and could help you out, I would if I am close enough. I am in Cincinnati, Ohio.
--
Sam
http://photos.miltonstreet.com
 
I can't say I'm happy with it, but it's better than I thought it would be. I'll see if I can get on the roof and take some test shots.

I'm in Newark, Delaware. Kind of a long drive from Cincinnati!

What kind of lights would it take to make the shot look good?
Sam Carleton said:
DGSmith said:
Click to expand...
David,

I really don't mean to be critical, but I would not be happy with
that type of lighting for a group shot. I would highly recommend
taking one or two someones with you to be placed where the team is
going to be placed and have them looking at you. Then play with the
exposure and see what comes of it.

What part of the world are you in? You never know, there might just
be someone on this forum in your area that has some lights and could
help you out, I would if I am close enough. I am in Cincinnati, Ohio.
--
Sam
http://photos.miltonstreet.com
Click to expand...
--
David Smith
http://delawarewildflowers.org/
 
DGSmith said:
What kind of lights would it take to make the shot look good?
Click to expand...
You are going to need a LOT of light to compete with the sun at that hour, I would imagine you will need 4800 w/s or more. I would have the kids IN the pool at the shallow end and then have the lights on the roof facing down. 2400 w/s on either side of the kids both facing towards the middle top of the kids.

Please do keep in mind that the companies that make the inexpensive strobes might claim "effective wattseconds", you want REAL wattseconds. Also, the 11 inch reflectors are more focused, thus more effective then the 7 inch reflectors.
--
Sam
http://photos.miltonstreet.com
 
I am a complete novice here, I didn't know what "w/s" was until you spelled it out. I wonder if I would be better off moving them to the south side of the pool, where the background is awful (porta-potties) but they would have light on their faces. I could change the background to the glass wall on the north side of the pool in PS.

I really appreciate all the comments. I'm pretty comfortable lighting little flowers but 100 kids is a whole different thing.


Sam Carleton said:
You are going to need a LOT of light to compete with the sun at that
hour, I would imagine you will need 4800 w/s or more. I would have
the kids IN the pool at the shallow end and then have the lights on
the roof facing down. 2400 w/s on either side of the kids both
facing towards the middle top of the kids.

Please do keep in mind that the companies that make the inexpensive
strobes might claim "effective wattseconds", you want REAL
wattseconds. Also, the 11 inch reflectors are more focused, thus
more effective then the 7 inch reflectors.
--
Sam
http://photos.miltonstreet.com
Click to expand...
--
David Smith
http://delawarewildflowers.org/
 
Is the building needed for social reasons? Like it's very cool to meet there – or is an important sponsor or official for the school? Is it part of the "story." A little background if important to the subjects can mean a compromise in lighting that is worth it. You can always clone / heal yourself out of the reflection. Or make repairs.

I have found that sometimes you have only so much that can be done with lighting and people. You will have 5 minutes to herd and shoot. The actual taking of the photo will be less then a minute before everyone gets tired of it and disperses. You will have to keep the people entertained, amused and focused during the one minute. Have things you will yell out to them to grab their attention and take the shot.

You may find blinked eyes, some looking away or even making a face. Take several right in a row so you can clone in a person that is not good in your best shot. Happens all the time. In a group that big, you will also have someone that is not there. I find myself going back and shooting one or two people later in the same spot and cloning in. Think about how you would place and shoot extras. Your light may not be perfect, but sponsors are so impressed if you can clone in someone who missed. Especially if it's a sponsor who really wanted to be a part of it. I always leave a little around the edges and remember where those spots are so someone can be placed there and cloned in without much hassle. I have also cloned from other shots if the lighting is the same. Again, you cannot believe how much they appreciate this ability.

For those face shadows, PS shadow/highlight can be a shot saver. Around 20-30 in shadow. plus 5 (or more) in mid-range contrast. Then go to levels and bring in 5 from each side and play with the middle. Usually start with left 5 in the middle and see what it does. That will take it out of the snapshot feeling. It's just enough to give it a professional look. You can adjust to more extremes to the point of a quasi HDR look – but sponsors will mostly want just a great shot of the kids. Apply hue and saturation and then USM to make the faces pop. It will be a winner for everyone.

With a group of kids, have fun – so they have fun. Be a cheerleader for the shoot. A lot can be forgiven photographically if you make the shot dramatic, keep it fun, ensure everyone can be seen and looks good, and no-one is left out.

Wear "photographic" clothes so everyone knows you are the photographer. Like a black shirt and jacket. Or a multi-pocket vest. Be in charge. Be confident. Don't be shy to yell for everyone to do something. Gently push people around on set. Be in charge. Have fun!!
 
They came out better than I expected. It was a little hazy so the shadows aren't so dark. Definitely an educational experience. Here is the best one just converted from raw and resized, also a closeup. I think I can give them something they'll be happy with. As predicted, two kids showed up late and will have to be added.




Ravitej Khalsa said:
Is the building needed for social reasons? Like it's very cool to
meet there – or is an important sponsor or official for the school?
Is it part of the "story." A little background if important to the
subjects can mean a compromise in lighting that is worth it. You can
always clone / heal yourself out of the reflection. Or make repairs.

I have found that sometimes you have only so much that can be done
with lighting and people. You will have 5 minutes to herd and shoot.
The actual taking of the photo will be less then a minute before
everyone gets tired of it and disperses. You will have to keep the
people entertained, amused and focused during the one minute. Have
things you will yell out to them to grab their attention and take the
shot.

You may find blinked eyes, some looking away or even making a face.
Take several right in a row so you can clone in a person that is not
good in your best shot. Happens all the time. In a group that big,
you will also have someone that is not there. I find myself going
back and shooting one or two people later in the same spot and
cloning in. Think about how you would place and shoot extras. Your
light may not be perfect, but sponsors are so impressed if you can
clone in someone who missed. Especially if it's a sponsor who really
wanted to be a part of it. I always leave a little around the edges
and remember where those spots are so someone can be placed there and
cloned in without much hassle. I have also cloned from other shots if
the lighting is the same. Again, you cannot believe how much they
appreciate this ability.

For those face shadows, PS shadow/highlight can be a shot saver.
Around 20-30 in shadow. plus 5 (or more) in mid-range contrast. Then
go to levels and bring in 5 from each side and play with the middle.
Usually start with left 5 in the middle and see what it does. That
will take it out of the snapshot feeling. It's just enough to give it
a professional look. You can adjust to more extremes to the point of
a quasi HDR look – but sponsors will mostly want just a great shot of
the kids. Apply hue and saturation and then USM to make the faces
pop. It will be a winner for everyone.

With a group of kids, have fun – so they have fun. Be a cheerleader
for the shoot. A lot can be forgiven photographically if you make the
shot dramatic, keep it fun, ensure everyone can be seen and looks
good, and no-one is left out.

Wear "photographic" clothes so everyone knows you are the
photographer. Like a black shirt and jacket. Or a multi-pocket vest.
Be in charge. Be confident. Don't be shy to yell for everyone to do
something. Gently push people around on set. Be in charge. Have fun!!
Click to expand...
--
David Smith
http://delawarewildflowers.org/
 
That came out pretty good, good job. Just to let you know, I keep a bicycle horn (a buck or two at Walmart) in my photo bag. Great for animals (pets, not wildlife! LOL) and kids. You seemed to be pretty far away, which makes it even harder to keep their attention.

In this case I would have told them that when they hear the horn, everybody look up at me. Then I would have gone up, squeaked the horn as loud as I could, and take three shots. The first shot I would expect 90% of them looking at me, the second shot 95%, and I'd cross my fingers and hope for them all on the third. By the way, don't TELL them you're going to take three shots in a row, just do it. Yet another reason to have plenty of flash power, you need to turn the juice down in order to get this.

I don't mean to play Monday morning quarterback here, I think you did a good job. Kids are tough!

Thanks for sharing,
-Porter
 
I was on the roof of a building at the other end of the pool. The swim team manager arranged them after I was up there. I wish now that I'd told her to move them all over to the right, away from the chairs and rope. But on the whole I'm happy with it. Not bad for a first try. If I do it again next year I will expect better.
--
David Smith
http://delawarewildflowers.org/
 
I like the bicycle horn idea! I was shouting at my group of kids a few days ago and a horn would have really been great.

Nice try on the shot - Like you suggested it would have been nice to square them up with your location and tidy up the lines...

Otherwise - try it again next year and show us again.

Doug.
 
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