Camera market moving away from Canon’s strengths?

I think this does not mean than the D300 is blowing the 40D out of
the water. The camera is selling well and this is good: it is called
What does it mean then?

Nikon increased production of the D300 from its launch figure of
60,000 per month to 70,000.

Has Canon announced a similar increase for the 40D ( also apparently
60,000 per month at launch )?
70,000 against 60,000 in my book is not "blowing the other one out of the water".
If the D300 were selling twice as much, ok.
After two months of sales in the US, did the D300 not pass the 40D in
the sales chart? Even though its a significantly more expensive body?
Nikon has a different strategy, possibly a better one. The smaller cameras, like the D40, D40x, D60, are enormously underspecced. They cannot even use all the Nikon lenses. And the update in the D80 range is long overdue. Therefore a lot of buyers are more or less forced to go the D300 way. With Canon you have more choices. In fact, mot likely Nikon would not have introduced a 450D with 12MP so soon after the 40D. Canon is apparently more interested in getting customers to purchase the EF mount in order to sell them lenses, than in raw margins on the bodies themselves.
Has the 40D now fallen out of the top 5 in the US?
Yes. Maybe it is number 6 just a few units after number 5. Who knows. Could be number 10 or 100 now, FWIW.
Was the 40D not subject to a cashback scheme within 5 weeks of launch
in Europe?
Canon cashback schemes apply to a lot of goods
Has the 40D in Europe not had a second cashback scheme since then?
As almost all bodies that were sold at both times.
Are Europe & the US not the two biggest markets for dSLRs?

Has the price of the 40D in the UK not fallen 55% ( including current
cashback ) from Canon's official launch price? With up to 9 months
left before it gets replaced.
Also the price of the Nikon has decreased.

Face it, you are treating me like a dumb Canon fanboy. Which I am not. In fact, I knew most of the data you were mentioning. This does NOT change the fact that "to blow out of the water" is an overstatement. Is the D300 selling more than the 40D, likely. Bringing higher margins to Nikon, sure. "Blow out of the water?" most definitely not.

Roberto
 
I knew most of the data you were mentioning. This
does NOT change the fact that "to blow out of the water" is an
overstatement. Is the D300 selling more than the 40D, likely.
Bringing higher margins to Nikon, sure. "Blow out of the water?"
most definitely not.
Selling more D300's at almost twice the price of the (rebated) 40D is pretty impressive to me in itself.

At least I wouldn't have imagined this happening, if anyone had asked me back at the time of both cameras being introduced.
 
... 'if' there is a new 5D replacement it will be in the $4500 price
range and will not replace the 5D, but the 1D Mrk III ...

It has become pretty obvious that the $5000 price point for FF DSLR's
seems to be where the camera makers want to stay.
The $5k market is already well covered by Canon's and Nikon's
pro-offerings.
Not only that but I don't know how sony could hope to "stay" at any price point when they have so far a total of... zero full frame customers. This isn't coke/pepsi here... this is freakin' coke/fanta 'cola'. If fanta is serious about competing in the cola business, they better start offering a competitive product at a competitive price. I am going to stick with coke - which I don't yet hate (even though their recent developments have been laughable, unlike Pepsi with their neat-o new D3-Cola!) - if fanta thinks they can sell me on name alone (name? what name? fanta grape?!?).

Not to mix the metaphors, but Sony might actually want to convert the many people who haven't spent the $5k+ on a body and lenses already entrenched in a competing system.... right?? If I already have the 1Dsmk3, why am I going to drop all my equipment for a $5k sony? For 2.5 megapixels?!? They have to compete on price, because its the bodies that bring them in, and the glass that wins the war. The price-point for FF is $2k, the price-point for spec'ed up FF can't be too far north if they expect an audience.

--
-CW
 
Selling more D300's at almost twice the price of the (rebated) 40D is
pretty impressive to me in itself.
The 40D is now 95,000yen in Japan, and the D300 is 161,000. Perhaps the 40D is still 90% markup...? ;-)

--
-CW
 
Nikon increased production of the D300 from its launch figure of
60,000 per month to 70,000.

Has Canon announced a similar increase for the 40D ( also apparently
60,000 per month at launch )?
If I remember correctly, I think I have seen the number 90.000 units a month for the 40D...
 
Not only that but I don't know how sony could hope to "stay" at any
price point when they have so far a total of... zero full frame
customers.
The problem for Sony's camera division is that Nikon will market the "same" camera; ie using the same sensor. This is less of a problem for Sony Semiconductor...:-)
 
RobertoAvanzi wrote:
70,000 against 60,000 in my book is not "blowing the other one out of
the water".
If the D300 were selling twice as much, ok.
But are Canon still making them at that rate?
Nikon has a different strategy, possibly a better one. The smaller
cameras, like the D40, D40x, D60, are enormously underspecced. They
cannot even use all the Nikon lenses. And the update in the D80
range is long overdue. Therefore a lot of buyers are more or less
And the D80 replacement, at least in the UK is going to give Nikon UK a marketing headache.

If it's intented to fit between the 450D & 40D as you'd expect, Nikon have a GBP50 difference between the current selling prices of the 450D & 40D.

The D80 currently does sit almost exactly halfway between the two. A 'D90' would have to be priced above the rebated 40D if Nikon wanted to reset their price. But would its spec be compatible with that? After all, the 40D is metal bodied and does over 6 FPS.

Conversely, the 40D's low price has to be hurting 450D sales because who on earth would buy a 450D when they could have the 40D for only £50 more? And that has to hurt because they need the early big sales at maximum margin to repay the cost of the 450D's development. Canon may have to start rebating the 450D earlier than expected to seperate it from the 40D. Maybe.
forced to go the D300 way. With Canon you have more choices. In
fact, mot likely Nikon would not have introduced a 450D with 12MP so
soon after the 40D. Canon is apparently more interested in getting
The D40x did come out about 4 months after the D40. The D80 with essentially the same sensor came out about 10 months after the D200. So I can't really see why they wouldn't.
Canon cashback schemes apply to a lot of goods
But not usually after they've been on the market for only 5 weeks.
Has the 40D in Europe not had a second cashback scheme since then?
As almost all bodies that were sold at both times.
But as far as the 40D is concerned, it is fairly exceptional.
Are Europe & the US not the two biggest markets for dSLRs?

Has the price of the 40D in the UK not fallen 55% ( including current
cashback ) from Canon's official launch price? With up to 9 months
left before it gets replaced.
Also the price of the Nikon has decreased.
Indeed, but not nearly so much. About 25% I reckon.
Face it, you are treating me like a dumb Canon fanboy. Which I am
not. In fact, I knew most of the data you were mentioning. This
does NOT change the fact that "to blow out of the water" is an
overstatement. Is the D300 selling more than the 40D, likely.
Bringing higher margins to Nikon, sure. "Blow out of the water?"
most definitely not.
It's a relative term. For a body that cost that much to actually appear in the Top 5 is a remarkable achievement I think.

Apologies if my questions seemed blunt, it wasn't really intended that way. Just what I thought was pertinent.
 
If I remember correctly, I think I have seen the number 90.000 units
a month for the 40D...
That's interesting. I saw a figure of 60,000 on these forums but I've not seen it since. Whereabouts did you see 90,000?
 
40D's low price has to be hurting 450D sales because
who on earth would buy a 450D when they could have the 40D for only
£50 more? And that has to hurt because they need the early big
sales at maximum margin to repay the cost of the 450D's development.

Canon may have to start rebating the 450D earlier than expected to
seperate it from the 40D.
Looks very likely.
 
Sony might actually want to convert the
many people who haven't spent the $5k+ on a body and lenses already
entrenched in a competing system.... right??

They have to compete on price, because its the
bodies that bring them in, and the glass that wins the war. The
price-point for FF is $2k, the price-point for spec'ed up FF can't be
too far north if they expect an audience.
Sounds about right to me.
 
I don't have full numbers, but PopPhoto publishes the top 5 dslrs
sold in the US each month. The figures for Jan-Mar/2008 shows the
D300 consistently ahead of 40D, which dropped out of top 5 in March.
http://www.popphoto.com/cameras/5245/top-selling-digital-slrs-for-february.html
http://www.popphoto.com/cameras/5279/top-selling-digital-slrs-for-march.html

In Jan/2008, the 40D was ahead of the D300:
http://www.popphoto.com/cameras/5170/top-selling-digital-slrs-for-january.html
I think this does not mean than the D300 is blowing the 40D out of
the water.
I agree, it wasn't me who posted the "blowing out of water" remark. I think that you are right, the 450D is what's causing the loss of sales of 40D. The 40D and 450D are now too close in price and not too far in specs (even though 40D is much better except sensor/LV). I think Canon misses a real semi-pro APS-C body like D300.

And the 40D will face even more competition from the D90 (update of D80), about to be launched (Thom says June likely). If it has, as expected, the D300's sensor and other goodies, it may compete well with 450D, from above, and 40D, from below.

My guess is the 18mo cycle may get shortened for the xxD series this time, a 50D may show up before the end of this year. Not too difficult to do, since the sensor and image processing is already there (450D).

Finally: your assessment that the 40D has better IQ than the D300 is a bit of fanboyism, isn't it? ;)

--
Regards, Renato Pedrosa

'Preparei minha máquina de novo. Tinha um perfume de jasmim no beiral de um sobrado. Fotografei o perfume.'
Manoel de Barros - Brazilian poet
 
2. FF will stay a > 2K USD proposition for a long time.
Canon has just announced a $300 instant rebate on the 5D. That means
anyone who wants a full frame can get one for $1,900 + shipping from
stores like Adorama and B and H.
But that's a very discounted price, I don't see the 5DII launched at less than USD 3K. Or any other FF frame right now. In a couple of years, yes, maybe lauch at 2.5K USD. But 2KUSD lauch price seems to me bottom limit for at least 2 generations. After that, well, can't even say dslrs will still exist then!
3. APS-C cameras have become very good and competitive, see how well
D300 is doing, both market-wise but also in comparisons.
I am surprised by the success of the D300. It is very expensive, and
its resolution is poorer than the 10mp Canon 40D, despite having more
pixels. Nikon did a wonderful job of packaging this camera. I guess
many people who wanted to buy a D3 but cannot afford to do so simply
bought a D300 instead.
Resolution of 40D better? I think you may be talking od detail at default settings (jpegs). The testings, in RAW, gave exactly same detail with the appropriate slight more resolution to the D300 (see resolution charts in DPrs tests). See:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond300/page27.asp

and quoting from the text there:

"Both cameras gain from the use of ACR with images looking considerably sharper and better detailed than their JPEG equivalents. There is now a more obvious advantage to the D300, better defined areas of fine detail and more texture, although as previously mentioned you would need to be outputing at a very large size for these differences to be noticeable."

You can't really compare IQ using in-camera jpegs, there are so many settings to control.

Resolution tests: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond300/page31.asp
The D90, rumored to have same sensor as D300, will be a very
nice camera, with most features an advanced amateur needs, just like
the 40D and A700.
The D90 will likely have the same body as the D80, which is not going
to be as good as the 40D body. The D80 shoots a leisurely 3fps, and
the D90 is likely to do the same.
Agree, as I said, it'll be competing from below in specs, but with a better sensor, including high ISO performance (I know Canon's users would debate that as well).

I think the 40D will be replaced earlier than the usual 18mo cycle, because the competition in that bracket price (1k-1.3K USD) is getting really tough (A700, D90, ...).
4. The dslr market will still grow for some time, then stabilize,
probably around 10-15 million cameras every year.
When DSLR camera sales "stabilizes", the upgrade market will likely
be dominated by entry level full frame DSLR cameras like the 5D.
Unless you are a Nikon fanatic, the 5D at $1,900 would appear to be a
much better value than the D300 at $1,800.
I don't, since I use my camera only for pretty static stuff and WA-short tele range.

But one that uses the camera for sports and wildlife will certainly like the D300 better than the 5D, no? Only in pure IQ the 5D is better if I'm not wrong, all other specs are better for the D300. If you shoot for a local newspaper or do sports for the local school, cant' go with D3 or 1D3, the D300 is probably the best choice right now in the market. No wonder it's outselling the 40D, the A700, in the top 5 in the US, with the likes of 400D, D40, 350D and D60, even at 1.7K USD.

Are you one of those who fight against facts? ;)

Finally: my next camera will be the Nikon FF in compact body, probably second sem of 2009.
--
Regards, Renato Pedrosa

'Preparei minha máquina de novo. Tinha um perfume de jasmim no beiral de um sobrado. Fotografei o perfume.'
Manoel de Barros - Brazilian poet
 
Sony is headed straight for the 1DS as its first effort in full
frame. It is not even targeting the 5D at this point.
And your impression of Sony's FF-strategy is based on what?
MP-numbers?
Absolutely. More pixels means higher prices.
Absolutely? Does that go for the entry level cameras as well? So the
Sony A350 with more than 14mp is priced distinctly above lower-MP
competitors? Is it?
That is a rare exception. I am not sure why Sony priced this camera below other entry level cameras. It may have something to do with Pentax/Samsung marketing a 14mp APS-C camera instead of using the 12mp Sony sensor in the K20D.
There are many more factors to weigh in than MP-counting.

Right now we do not know much more about the new FF-model, except
that it looks a lot like the A700 and could be built to about the
same level of ruggedness. Very similar to when the 5D was designed
over the body of the 20D/30D and to about the same standards.

Which in the case of Sony might suggest just the opposite of what you
have concluded.
I would be shocked if Sony sells the 24mp full frame for $2,000.
I have seen noone suggesting this. Most observers seem to expect
expect a price level around $3k-$4k. And after some time, discounts
are sure to be offered.
That is why I said Sony is not going to compete against the 5D and why I think 24mp means much higher prices than the 5D. Most people apparently agree.
Canon has a $300 instant rebate on the 5D in a few days. The price
of the 5D after the rebate will be $1,900. That means there is a
good chance the new 5D will be introduced for around $2,000. I don't
see Sony pricing its camera close to the 5D.
Canon's pricing strategy on the 5DII will be a strong indicator of
how aggressive they will target the FF-domain.

My guess - and neither of us know about this, right? - would be that
the 5DII would start out closer to $3k (and Sony would position
themselves slightly above that), but soon doscounting will be seen on
both models.
My guess is that the new 5D will be priced at around $2,200 or even $2,000. This strategy should put price pressure on both the Nikon D300 and the rumored FF D10, which is said to be a mid-range full frame model. Nikon's midrange model is rumored to have an 18mp FF sensor. If so, it should be priced above the D300 and below the D3, perhaps selling for $3k - $3.5K. I reckon Canon would respond with an 18mp FF camera of its own for $3K as well, but it won't be the 5DII, which would likely have a more modest 14mp. The 18mp Canon would likely be the long rumored 3D.
 
Canon has announced a $200 instant rebate on the 40D starting May 18,
2008. That makes this camera much cheaper than the A700 and Pentax
K20D. Canon's action may force Sony and Pentax to lower prices.
Canon also has a $300 instant rebate on the 5D, bringing its price to
$1,900, which may force Nikon to lower the price of the D300,
currently selling for $1,800.
There have been posts in the Nikon's forums about D300 body at 1,500 USD already.

Re Sony, I just read a long WSJ analysys and Sony is in trouble, trying to lure buyers to their TVs, by launching an underspec'd LCD series for the US market. It seems that Samsung and Panasonic, also LG, and others, are giving Sony a big headache in the genearl electronics market. And they can't get into the mobile phone market as well with the Sony/Ericsson line.

With cameras, their pricing strategy is really agressive, but in dslrs they lack brand recognition, like Canon or Nikon. I guess the A350 will sell well, since it has LV and 14MP (even though some tests have given its IQ very low marks, and the OVF seems also to be quite poor; but many newcomers never saw anything better). But I doubt they will really crack the C/N dominance in dslrs in the near future.

--
Regards, Renato Pedrosa

'Preparei minha máquina de novo. Tinha um perfume de jasmim no beiral de um sobrado. Fotografei o perfume.'
Manoel de Barros - Brazilian poet
 
I have seen noone suggesting this. Most observers seem to expect
expect a price level around $3k-$4k. And after some time, discounts
are sure to be offered.
That is why I said Sony is not going to compete against the 5D and
why I think 24mp means much higher prices than the 5D. Most people
apparently agree.
Not sure. More MP is not the big thing re pricing, actually. Body specs are more relevant once the sensor size is fixed. So, 24 MP in a A700 type body, as most say ist the case, would probably be less than 4K USD.
My guess is that the new 5D will be priced at around $2,200 or even
$2,000.
I doubt it, really. More like 3K USD.
This strategy should put price pressure on both the Nikon
D300 and the rumored FF D10, which is said to be a mid-range full
frame model. Nikon's midrange model is rumored to have an 18mp FF
sensor. If so, it should be priced above the D300 and below the D3,
perhaps selling for $3k - $3.5K. I reckon Canon would respond with
an 18mp FF camera of its own for $3K as well, but it won't be the
5DII, which would likely have a more modest 14mp. The 18mp Canon
would likely be the long rumored 3D.
I think Canon may put the 21 MP sensor of 1ds3 in a compact body if Sony and Nikon go higher with MP for that range. Nikon is probably thinking about that too. Canon runs the risk of repeating the 40D problem (re D300), and be stuck with a very good camera but outspec's by slightly more expensive ones. That's probably why they are waiting so long, not to be leapfroged a few days after launch by a better camera from the competition.

--
Regards, Renato Pedrosa

'Preparei minha máquina de novo. Tinha um perfume de jasmim no beiral de um sobrado. Fotografei o perfume.'
Manoel de Barros - Brazilian poet
 
I would be shocked if Sony sells the 24mp full frame for $2,000.
As I've said previously, according to a Sony Alpha rep that covers
our store (who obviously knows more than those here speculating),
expect the new Sony to be $5000+.
I expect it to be less than $5,000. Probably a few hundred dollars less, say $4,500.
Now, I tried to pin him down on the price of the new Sony FF DSLR . .
. he wouldn't say (said he wasn't at liberty to tell us a price yet)
but when I mentioned $5000 . . . he pointed his thump up and left it
at that.

I am in the camera sales business and get my info from credible
sources from the camera makers, not a friend of a friend of a friend
who thinks they may know a factory rep, but is really a shelf stocker
at Circuit City or the electronics department at Target.
Canon has a $300 instant rebate on the 5D in a few days.
The price of the (Canon) 5D after the rebate will be $1,900.
Well . . . in DSLR terms, it is an old camera . . . they just want to
get rid of them.
That is probably one of the reasons for the rebate. But Canon had a similar rebate in the fall of 2006, which resulted in a sub $2k price for the 5D. That rebate did not happen because Canon was getting rid of the cameras. Besides, the Canon 5D is still competitive against the D3 in terms of image quality.
That means there is a good chance the new 5D will be introduced for around $2,000.
Wishful thinking at best . . .
Not really. Canon has already said that the new camera will be the same price as the old one a few months ago.
I think (ie.- just my own personal opinion, not an arguement starter)
that 'if' there is a new 5D replacement it will be in the $4500 price
range and will not replace the 5D, but the 1D Mrk III (notice there
is no 'S'), which really is a camera stuck in the middle that really
doesn't have a big place in the market, unless they make it an FF
body!
I think you missed some of the news that were reported around the time of PMA. There will be a 5D replacement, and it will be the same price as the old one, with more pixels and more durable shutter. That is straight from the mouth of Canon's executive. In one of the interviews, a Canon guy says that the reason for the 1.3x crop sensor in the 1D was that at the time the competitors had 1.5x crop sensors. So the larger sensor gave the 1D an advantage. However, it is not certain that Canon will have a full frame replacement for the 1D series, because the same Canon guy said he is not convinced the 1.3x crop sensor is not better. Of course that could be a smoke screen as well. Sounds like Canon may not replace the 1DMKIII immediately, but that would be a mistake. Canon would not want to see a torrent of pros switching to the D3 before bringing out a full frame 1D replacement, Canon would want to keep them happy by moving to full frame as soon as possible.
It has become pretty obvious that the $5000 price point for FF DSLR's
seems to be where the camera makers want to stay.
Yes, the camera makers would always want to have the highest prices they can charge, but the camera buyers would have it the opposite. They want a FF for $500 or less if that is possible. So the two competing interests tend to arrive at a compromise. Since camera makers must sell cameras, but the consumers do not need to buy one, I think the buyers will win in the end. Full frame prices will fall, when competition heats up.
Of course, we'll all know for sure how this will play out by this
time next year . . .

Until then, we can all argue about it until the cows come home and
none of it really will mean a thing!

--
J. D.
Colorful Colorado
We don't need to wait very long. At photokina 08, if not before that, we will see the new 5D and the Sony flagship 24mp. We may even see a Samsung FF prototype, as well as the Nikon mid-range FF model. Now, if all of these are going to be $5,000 cameras, then there won't be very many buyers. We will either see prices lowered drastically, or we will see some camera makers play hardball and discontinue the cameras rather than lower prices.

But I think lower prices will likely be the outcome because they can still make money at the lower prices, just not as much. And if one or two of them decided not to sell a full frame unless people are willing to fork over $5K or more, then the other camera makers would be more than happy to sell them for less than $5K or even less than $2K, as Canon is doing right now.

In another thread, I calculated that the difference in manufacturing cost between a full frame sensor and an APS-C sensor, taking into account such things as yield, silicon wafer cost and labor, is no more than about $250. So, a full frame camera should have a price premium over an APS-C camera of no more than about $750-$900 for a camera maker to make the same % profit as an APS-C model. That would mean that a FF can be sold for around $2,000 and still be profitable. That is exactly what Canon is selling the 5D for at this time, after rebates.

My prediction is that $2,000 FF DSLR cameras will become common place in a few years, after manufacturers have given up pursuing the small but lucrative market for $5K+ full frame models.
 
... 'if' there is a new 5D replacement it will be in the $4500 price
range and will not replace the 5D, but the 1D Mrk III ...

It has become pretty obvious that the $5000 price point for FF DSLR's
seems to be where the camera makers want to stay.
The $5k market is already well covered by Canon's and Nikon's
pro-offerings.
Agreed. After Sony introduced its own FF 24mp and after Nikon released the D3x, this market will get even more crowded. Also in this market is the Canon 1DMKIII, which may become a full frame model when it is replaced. It is indeed a crowded market.
What is apparent in the market place is a huge gap between this
price level and high-end APS-cameras all well below $2k.
Yes, most APS-C models sell for at most a couple of hundred dollars above $1K, so there is a huge gap between a $1,200 APS-C model like the Canon 40D and the $5K Nikon D3. Right now, this gap is being occupied by such cameras as the D300 ($1,8000) and the Canon 5D ($1,900 after instant rebate starting May 18, 2008). We will likely see a number of new FF models being slotted within this gap in the coming years.
I would expect manufacturers to expand the high-end volumes by
offering more models to fill this gap. FF-cameras at around $3k and
slightly above seem to become the next big move from the three main
manufacturers in high-end DSLRs.
Yes it will be, but competition will be fierce. Prices will fall way below $3K, because Canon's new 5DII will likely be the cheapest model at around $2K-2.2K when it is introduced this fall. It would be tough for Pentax and Sony to charge more than Canon is asking for the 5DII. Nikon may get away with it and be able to ask for $3K-3.5K if its FF has 18mp.
 
Not really. Canon has already said that the new camera will be the
same price as the old one a few months ago.
That can be interpreted in a number of ways. You are seeing that statement as evidence for street prices remaining the same.

I would suggest that it could equally apply to the 5D launch price of $3,300.

i.e. 'Canon has already said that the new camera will be the same price as the old one when it was launched .'

I see no reason for Canon to depart from the same launch pricing model as their other top bodies :

1d2n : $3,999
1d3 : $3,999

1ds2 : $7,999
1ds3 : $7,999
 
We don't need to wait very long. At photokina 08, if not before
that, we will see the new 5D and the Sony flagship 24mp. We may even
see a Samsung FF prototype, as well as the Nikon mid-range FF model.
No, probably first D3X at 24MP at Photokina or earlier, and before that D90.

Nikon very rarely goes for a sensor not used in higher level cameras before.

Nikon's strategy, from the very start of the digital era has been: use a new sensor in a higher spec'd body then use it in stripped down versions to the limit. See D100 -> D70 - > D40, D200 -> D80 -> D40X -> D60.

The span it has taken for those moves has shortened, so now we'll probably see the D90 launched less than a year after the D300, with same sensor.

I expect the D10 (?), the compact FF Nikon, to be launched at PMA next year , together with D60X (same sensor as D300/D80), and probably D400 announced, or maybe later. The D3X will have been around for about 7-8mos, so it's about time to announce the D10. It will, my guess, come with the 24MP sensor.

The reason for that is that Nikon doesn't make sensors and doesn't like to have too many sensors and platforms at same time in their plants. Thom Hogan has said this time and again and he knows about Nikon's ways. And that practivce saves a lot of money. An 18MP sensor which hads never been used requires a lot of R&D to implement.

So, here's probable schedule/sensor/price of Nikon's releases until mid 2009:

June '08: D90 (D300's sensor, 1K USD body)

Photokina '08: D3X (24MP, 5-6K USD) Maybe announced also in June, for sale at Photokina.

PMA '09: D60X (D300's sensor, 750USD)

June-August '09:
D400 (14MP CMOS, APS-C, 1.7K USD)
D10 (24MP, 3.5KUSD)
D4 (14-16MP,
4.5K USD)

Looks like a pretty busy schedule, and I can't see it getting more compressed than that.
But I think lower prices will likely be the outcome because they can
still make money at the lower prices, just not as much. And if one
or two of them decided not to sell a full frame unless people are
willing to fork over $5K or more, then the other camera makers would
be more than happy to sell them for less than $5K or even less than
$2K, as Canon is doing right now.

In another thread, I calculated that the difference in manufacturing
cost between a full frame sensor and an APS-C sensor, taking into
account such things as yield, silicon wafer cost and labor, is no
more than about $250. So, a full frame camera should have a price
premium over an APS-C camera of no more than about $750-$900 for a
camera maker to make the same % profit as an APS-C model. That would
mean that a FF can be sold for around $2,000 and still be profitable.
That is exactly what Canon is selling the 5D for at this time, after
rebates.

My prediction is that $2,000 FF DSLR cameras will become common place
in a few years, after manufacturers have given up pursuing the small
but lucrative market for $5K+ full frame models.
Still think, as a matter of strategy, that, at least Nikon, won't go for such low prices. I really don't see much of an advantage to get a similarly priced 14MP FF camera over a 12MP APS-C one, unless one shoots landscapes or a lot of extreme WA. The difference in IQ has really gone down, the D300 is pretty close to both D3 and 5D. Of course the D3 has the high ISO advantage, but the point is really the body's specs.

And one needs more expensive lenses for FF bodies, this won't go away. The 17-55 f/2.8 made by Nikon in a DX body is as good as the new 24-70 f/2.8 on a FF. And much less expensive. The 14-24 is also very expensive, the 12-24mm DX is much less.

Again, if Canon insists on putting a high-quality sensor in a underspec'd body I think it'll hurt its sales compared to a higher spec'd FF body at 25-30% higher price, since people getting that type of camera knows that the body price will be the lighter part of what they will need to spend to get a good system going.
--
Regards, Renato Pedrosa

'Preparei minha máquina de novo. Tinha um perfume de jasmim no beiral de um sobrado. Fotografei o perfume.'
Manoel de Barros - Brazilian poet
 
If I remember correctly, I think I have seen the number 90.000 units
a month for the 40D...
That's interesting. I saw a figure of 60,000 on these forums but
I've not seen it since. Whereabouts did you see 90,000?
Lol I think I saw it on this forum but could be wrong about the numbers. I'm quite sure I've seen that the 40D have higher production volume than the D300. This was probably initial production volumes and could been adjusted meanwhile....
 

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