Tepid "Overall Conclusion" for the a700 from Phil Askey & Simon Joinson

ed209 said:

Had the A700 been about £150 cheaper, I would have gone for it

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Personally I am a little puzzled by this statement of yours and the implications for Sony's business strategies that you are hinting at.

If $150 is decisive to you - and if you are already covered by Canon IS glass - then why did you not go for the 40D? Ir would fit your bill excactly.

Sounds to me like you are trying to build up a case with no real substance here...

At the end of the day, the A700 is pretty well positioned feature- and pricewise amongst comparable models like 40D, D300 and E3. And furthermore: Sony will never build a leading position on price alone.

Mack1976 said:

Why not just focus on using the facts and tests of the review as
opposed to worry about the descriptive words used in DPR's summary
for the A700?

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Maybe because most potential buyers (apart from forum nerds like you and me) only ever read the conclusion to get a 'thumbs up', 'thumbs down' or 'indifferent'.

This at least is the pattern I recognize amongst many DSLR-buying friends, many of them considering a 'advanced amateur segment' model as next buy.

My guess is that DPR's trafic measures also shows quite a lot of readers jumping directly from the opening page of the review to the conclusion.

KM Glassman said:

Most praise given here was given faintly and grudgingly, and in
back-hand manner -that it obvious. The reason is not so obvious to
me. What does Phil Askey & Simon Joinson have against Sony?

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A few options come to mind:

1. Good relations with Canon and Nikon is of utmost importance for DPR to gain early access to preview/review samples as well as presentation tours. Therefore DPR does not dare to threaten Canon/Nikon's positions as the first choices in any category. Sony, Oly and Pentax will never be allowed to do that either.

2. Canon and Nikon are so dominant in the market for photography that the are also vital to the economy of DPR via advertising. DPR is simply afraid to annoy them.

3. Canon and Nikon have positioned themselves so strongly in the mind of the reviewers that any different solution (like the topplate of the A700 that so many photographers have instantly fallen in love with) is perveived as a downside only. Whatever choice of Canon/Nikon is seen as the natural choice, the right solution, and the review goes from there.

4. DPR may want a better treatment from Sony in some way - like having earlier warnings of new products or other kinds of exclusives. DPR tends to 'discipline' the minor players by the stick, whereas DPR seems to pleqase the major players by the carrot.

This is all hypothetical. From 30 years in the media, however, this is nothing daiily routine - in internet media as well.

Gil Knutson said:

AWB on Pentax is whonky too at times... two gals have Pentax's
at work, and sometimes the photos are great, too often they
are not.. usually with flourescent lights in the gym, or tungsten
lights at night.

I fear that AWB and WB in general is something you have to get
real experience with... on YOUR own camera... before you will get
consistent results. Some times they are amazingly good, though.

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I dunno, just compared to the A100 it seems a step back on AWB, even the presets phil didnt rate. Dont take this as being negative mind..just a point to bear in mind ;-)

I know the K10d is far from perfect, but the preset WB is pretty near the mark..

Most SLR's are a bit iffy AWB with tungsten...well almost all are.
--



Clint is on holiday! Soon to return! ;-)

thomas goseberg said:

He actually admits its in the user manual, but I also think,
everytime you switch the camera on, it should be frozen for 5 seconds
and the display reads 'Warning - Base ISO 200'.

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The warning should be transferred to post-processing as well, so that the PC is also frozen and the screen will be blinking with the warning message for a minute with every new picture.

Better safe than sorry.

KM Glassman said:

Why does DPR go to all the work of doing an excellent
technical review of a camera - Come to the conclusion it is as good
as a Canon 40D, but with additional features the 40D does not have
(like in-body IS, DRO, better LCD, etc) - and THEN totally trash
their credibility with a poorly written biased bit of rubbish in the
"Overall Conclusion" which doesn't support the findings of their own
review?

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Reminds of the classical situation in the newspaper newsdesk. The serious, hardworking, investigative reporter has finished a lot of research and writing and delivers his basic article - including all the important reservations and acknowledging some very important differing opinions too.

At this point his work is taken over by a news cleak that never dealt with any of the research himself. The newsclerk then 'sexes up' the article with juicy headlines and summaries throughout (all very much founded in the prejudice of the newsclerk).

Was this review born the same way - Simon doing all the fine detail and Phil nailing the conclusion?

That would explain some of the discrepancy that is otherwise rather difficult to explain.

Just a few more additions to an interesting exchange of views:

Barry Fitzgerald said:

Docno said:

Some people here have said that Phil and Simon have a Canikon bias.
Can't be sure of this, but there were a few statements in the review
that I found unnecessarily sarcastic and which hinted at Sony-bashing:

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Member said:

Re provision of MS slot... "(I'm sure there'll be a huge sigh of
relief from semi professional photographers that their SLR can now
accept the same slow, pricey memory cards as their PlayStation). "

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I am with phil on this one, I see no place for MS being honest, its
just slapped in there because its sony's own format. I would be
amazed if anyone went out and bought them over a CF card.

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Some excisting Sony users (with some of those cards at hand) might be happy here.

Member said:

Member said:

Re Sony's explanation of on-chip NR... "Below is how Sony makes this
all seem very simple and friendly using evil spiky noise bugs getting
mixed in with lovely golden balls of analog signal"

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Well strange comment have to say...I think being critical of the NR
processing is enough.

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This kind of writing from a reviewer often indicates a wish to be perceived as 'critical' in his approach. It is, however, of no substance in this case and therefore leaves nothing but an impression of unfounded hostility.

Member said:

Member said:

Re the processor... "Continuing Sony's habit of slapping a daft name
on every component is an all-new version of the Bionz image processor"

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I see no real point making a remark like that. Ok the name does
nothing for me, but then who cares?

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Did we ever see DPR mention Canon's DIGIC engine with the same kind of irony? I seem to remember DIGIC being mentioned over and over again in dozens of news releases and in reviews with no question being made. Why the difference?

Member said:

Member said:

Re the viewfinder... "Note the 16:9 framing guide for those advanced
SLR users who prefer to view their pictures on the TV." [OK, now
maybe I'm being overly-sensitive with this one, but I don't see any
reason to specify 'advanced SLR users' in this specific statement]

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Well that one is not too bad. 16:9 is hardly a must have SLR
feature..but its ok I guess.

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I think it is recognized by most market insiders, that more and more pictures will be viewed on large screens rather than in paper prints in the future. As a provider of cameras, Sony will have to adress this need, of course, so again any irony is malplaced or just uninformed IMO.

Member said:

Member said:

Sure, it's nice to have some humour in a review, but some of these
(and other) statements could have been made in a more objective
manner. Then again, I haven't read recent Canon/Nikon reviews, so
maybe it's just the style here (in which case, I happily eat these
words). Glenn

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Well some comments are out of line, I agree with you. There is a
sarcastic tone on some areas..which is not really called for. I was
more bothered by phil's refusal to accept that any camera other than
nikon has wireless flash, which is just misleading to the reader (its
listed in flash specs, but no mention elsewhere)

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A simple mistake, so far uncorrected.

Member said:

Is phil biased? Well if he isnt...he doesnt help convey that..

And I dont see the sarcastic comments on canikon reviews..so well,
you have a point.

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I second that.

jamesdak said:

jamesdak said:

The only thing that would have made my dual memory slots nice would
have been auto switch.. but I was able to make a quick menu change
and get my shots.

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Hmm, totally right, if giving you the feature seems like they would
have automated or at least allowed a one time menu setup to enable
auto swithing when one is full.

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Sound to me like a topic that might be fixed in a future firmware update...?

The grip on the Oly E410 is terrible. The Oly E510 is much better. I believe every DSLR should be the size and weight of the E510. But Oly turned the E-3 into a big heavyweight monstrous machine. Disappointing!

--
http://www.pbase.com/lhlim

ed209 said:

Ken_5D said:

If you are in a place where opening the bag and changing cards is not
good like.. I was last week or maybe in a dusty or damp place where
opening the door will breal the seal around the memory slots. then
yest.. but since the 5D isn't seald it is in the bad when it gets a
little dusty or damp

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This is still a very minor point. At some stage you are going to have
to open the door on the A700 as well. It is just a question of when
that happens.

ed209 said:

Some might dispute it compared to newer offerings...

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I would be very interested in knowing whcih these are. From the
reviews and comments I've read on DPR and elsewhere, the EOS 5D is
still the one to beat.

ed209 said:

REALLY how much is an IS 50mm 1.7, or and IS 70-300 APO lens? Mine
cost a total of $300 for the pair

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Have a look at the 70-200 f2.8 zooms for a shock. The Sony is nearly
50% more expensive.

ed209 said:

so have fun and stop pretending price would have changed
your mind.. unless all your pro Canon points are just for debate.

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"Stop pretending"? I really don't know how you can sit there and much
such an insulting statement. I would never presume to make such
comments, especially for someone I have never met. The high price of
the A700 and the low price of the EOS 5D were both critical factors

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And yet you listed all those Canon specific system reasons that you chose it. Now you say it was all about price.. any wonder we are confused?

150 pound lower price on the A700 doesn't magically get you IS lenses that show stablization in the viewfinder. It doesn't make the Sony system become the same as the Canon system etc. So sorry of I belived you long list of reasons why you bought the older 5D vs the newer A700 ... now you tell me it was all price...huyh?

ed209 said:

I used my example of buying the 5D insteed of the A700 as an example
of a sale Sony lost because they have priced the A700 too high. My
"pro-canon" points were in direct response to the comparison you
started, not because I was praising Canon or anything like that (I
actually have little concern over the brand, it is what the camera
does that matters to me).

Had the A700 been about £150 cheaper, I would have gone for it but
given its high price and the extremely high price of some Sony
lenses, my instinct was to diversify so I am not trapped by Sony's
pricing regime in the future. Sony have sent out signals for the long
term by their current pricing. Those signals are alarm bells to me
that warn of perpetual high prices and yet, despite the A700 being a
really good camera, there is still nothing in the Sony system that
justifies those high prices.

It isn't just about the prices now, it is also about the prices in
the future and how they will be positioned. If Sony establish
themselves on a price premium, will that change? Will they become
more directly competitive with their prices? My instinct says "no",
hence my decision to put my eggs in two baskets, not one.

Ed

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--
------------
Ken - KM 5D (A700 Joy)
http://www.cascadephotoworks.com

ed209 said:

Ken_5D said:

The typical consumer view on price is lower is always better and the
competition prices is the key factor. Pricing is way more complex
than that.

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Of course it is but if your marketing people are putting the base
price too high, people will be put off too early in the evaluation
stage and look at the alternatives.

ed209 said:

I love my Ford.. and for years Ford was a leader in sales. Even
though Toyota is usually more expensive they have continued to take
share by means of product design and good marketing.. not
discounting..

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Which means in summary that Toyota make better cars. If your product
is demonstratively superior, you can afford to charge the price
premium. However, I cannot think of any key aspect of the A700 or the
entire Sony system that is demonstratively superior to the
competition that justifies the high prices.

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I already gave you the list of what the Sony A700 has over the CN5D and the list of what it has over the 40D more than warrants out what is often a 15% or less price increase.

Better LCD
SSS
built in wireless flash (this alone is a $160+ extra cost on Canon)
inlcuded remote for both playback and shutter release

HDMI out put for HQ showing of images on HD TVs (which in the US are selling like hotckes not)
Support for UDMA CF cards for faster writes of images
Better highight Dynamic Range
2 more MP
easier to use UI
ISO 6400 if needed
better seals
dual memory slots

The 40D
has better shadow DR
6'5 FPS vs 5FPS
A partially functional Live view

Sony clearly has the value to support a higher price than Canon on the 40D.

ed209 said:

ed209 said:

I keep hearing the A700 price is wrong from some people. Yet it
keeps getting value scores that are in line with the 40D etc.

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The only scores that really count are the number of purchases made.
Forget review scores, it is people putting down their money that
counts. I don't know the accurate figures for market share. If they
are made public, I'd like to know them.

ed209 said:

do you have any numbers to say that Sony's only market is current
A-mount users?
All I can go buy is more "I sold my Canikon for the Sony or even I am
thinking about selling my Canikon.." posts than we have seen in the
KM/Sony forums since I joined.

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And whilst doing that, don't forget to consider the number of people
switching from KM/Sony to the other brands as well. That is happening.

ed209 said:

If you get people to buy with lower price then the market base you
created is a price concious base that will always insist that future
offerings be priced lower. If you take your time and attract people
who will pay more for your feature set then you build a market base
and brand impression that will let you make more over long-term.
Early market share by agressive pricing if you don't need capital to
survive is not a good way to build share.

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If Sony were allowing dealers to price competitively, we would have
seen a major street-price reduction on the A700. One dealer tried but
got forced to step back in line. This is all that is needed to get
the price down. Sony can keep the RRP at the same level but the
dealers can fight it out. This wont conflict with your point above.

Ed

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--
------------
Ken - KM 5D (A700 Joy)
http://www.cascadephotoworks.com

tweedle said:

tweedle said:

tweedle said:

Re Sony's explanation of on-chip NR... "Below is how Sony makes this
all seem very simple and friendly using evil spiky noise bugs getting
mixed in with lovely golden balls of analog signal"

Click to expand...

Well strange comment have to say...I think being critical of the NR
processing is enough.

Click to expand...

This kind of writing from a reviewer often indicates a wish to be
perceived as 'critical' in his approach. It is, however, of no
substance in this case and therefore leaves nothing but an impression
of unfounded hostility.

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Actually, I'll defend Phil on this one. I'm pretty sure he was talking about Sony's picture description of how the NR works shown here...

http://www.sonystyle.ca/html/multimedia/AMC/A700_microsite_html/features/feature01.html

About half way down, you'll see the pics of the "bugs" of noise, along with the "golden" balls of analog signal.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/TKevan/

While what you say is certainly correct and I agree with you, I don't think this is the place to put such complain. DPreview started as an equipment review site and has always been more about the equipment, not the pictures. While much of what we do is indeed nit-picking, it's just an inherent nature of a site catering to toys for adults.

Feeber12 said:

Sorry but I just had to rant. I am really over all these reviews by
people who can't see past Canon and Nikon. And anyway, at the end of
the day it's up to the individual to buy a camera and gear they like
and to use it. If they then don't like it for some reason, then they
should sell it and move on.

It would be great if we could go back to just taking photos and
sharing them, and providing friendly helpful critiques of each
other's work if it's requested. That's what will make us better
photographers. We have all seen examples of amazing pics taken with
the a100 and the a700. We know it can do it. Who cares what the
reviewers think? I certainly don't anymore.
--
Fiona

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Gil Knutson said:

I have whined and whimpered for the last while that I would LOVE to see
a SOLID, full-featured digital camera that was the size of the Maxxum
5. I
believe they can produce such a delight IF they had the desire to do so!

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I'd prefer the body size of my XD11. And the lenses the size of the lenses that went with my XD11. Lenses have become far more bloated than bodies.

Walt

tweedle said:

KM Glassman said:

Why does DPR go to all the work of doing an excellent
technical review of a camera - Come to the conclusion it is as good
as a Canon 40D, but with additional features the 40D does not have
(like in-body IS, DRO, better LCD, etc) - and THEN totally trash
their credibility with a poorly written biased bit of rubbish in the
"Overall Conclusion" which doesn't support the findings of their own
review?

Click to expand...

Reminds of the classical situation in the newspaper newsdesk. The
serious, hardworking, investigative reporter has finished a lot of
research and writing and delivers his basic article - including all
the important reservations and acknowledging some very important
differing opinions too.

At this point his work is taken over by a news cleak that never dealt
with any of the research himself. The newsclerk then 'sexes up' the
article with juicy headlines and summaries throughout (all very much
founded in the prejudice of the newsclerk).

Was this review born the same way - Simon doing all the fine detail
and Phil nailing the conclusion?

That would explain some of the discrepancy that is otherwise rather
difficult to explain.

Click to expand...

I think you may have found the burr under the saddle!
IMO, that is EXACTLY what happened.

I felt the body of the review itself is a good read, obviously written by someone who actually using the camera and exploring the a700's capabilities (but, nevertheless, not familiar with them enough to get the best out of the camera). The technical graphs look very well done. It bothered me a bit that the comparisons shots with the Canon 40D and Olympus E3 were not RESIZED down to 10MP, but not a real big deal. OTOH, Phil's conclusion read like someone who HAD NOT used the camera (or not much at all) and his Canon 40D conclusion read like he OWNED a Canon 40D (and liked it a lot!).
-
Glassman

Ken_5D said:

And yet you listed all those Canon specific system reasons that you
chose it. Now you say it was all about price.. any wonder we are
confused?

Click to expand...

Ken_5D said:

150 pound lower price on the A700 doesn't magically get you IS lenses
that show stablization in the viewfinder. It doesn't make the Sony
system become the same as the Canon system etc. So sorry of I
belived you long list of reasons why you bought the older 5D vs the
newer A700 ... now you tell me it was all price...huyh?

Click to expand...

Sigh. I really don't know what to say. You seem very adept at mixing up comments I made in response to comments you made and the original points in my first post.

Look, this really is rather boring. I haven't got the time or interest to reply any further. I don't mind a good debate if I feel it progressing but this obviously is not. I'll leave you to it...

Ed

Wow, only 2 DSLR cameras and yet 2 HIGHLY recommendations! doesn't sound so bad to me. Am I missing something here? 2 cameras from a new company banging heads with the big boys and getting 2 HIGHLY recommended? You should be on cloud 9 but instead your in here ripping and slamming.
Sony right out of the gate has raised eyebrows and put concern to Canon/Nikon.

pepcok said:

strange people.. for several weeks (months?) crying for a review...
finally when it comes, they complain. What else to say? If you're not
happy, write a rewiew for yourself with words like "excellent",
"unprecented", "marvelous" etc.

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Funny, where were you when end users reviewed the a700 over and over again during the months following the a700 release? Phil's review has told us nothing new about this fine camera. Even Phil's tepid conclusion was "expected" by us. In light of the miles of praise and support that the a700 gets here and elsewhere, your observation seems insulting (and "goofie"), at most.

CHaCHa

Ken_5D said:

Sony is not interested in being the "discount" brand. This kind of
thinking would have said Lexus if it wanted to increase market share
quickly they should have started by selling thier cars less than
ford. Problem is that was not thier goal to be known as the car that
is cheaper than Ford.

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Sorry, but Lexus is a name Toyota is gluing on their most expensive cars in order to be able to sell them at all. Sony wants to be a "Toyota" being No.2 and rivaling Canon. They won't be able to do this by gluing the name with least heritage in SLR history to expensive products.

Ken_5D said:

Word is Sony is building 20K units a month. Some of those are the EU
no grip sensor version. Of that some get allocated to the UK. What
is smarter?

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20K was projected initial sales. In my opinion the numbers are not realistic. The last Minolta 7 film camera had a projected monthly production volume of 60K. They manages 7K at the maximum.